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8th Ed. Temple Guard or not?

G
Saurus

gapton

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Hello all,

Last week I lost a game of 2,000 points towards a Tomb King player. I had my Slann with a unit of 14 Temple Guard (6 x 3) and a block of 20 Sauruses.

The two units (Slann + TG and Saurus) were up against a unit of 37 Tomb Guards.

I underestimated the Tomb Guard (with a prince, Arkan and Herald in it) and my buff failed (miscast after using cupped hands and lost all remaining power dice).

Unfortunately all but ONE of my Temple Guards were killed, so only my TG Champ could hit back. This made me lost the battle big time and even my Slann with Ld 10 BRB failed the break test and ran. My sauruses however held much better.

Firstly Saurus has better AS in close combat, this makes a big difference when dealing with S4 since Temple Guard would only get a 6+AS and no perry vs Saurus 5+ AS with another 6+ perry save.

I feel that at 16 points, the Temple Guard is horrible in terms of how well they will survive a round of close combat.

That's why I am thinking of keeping my Slann in a unit of Saurus with 2 Scar-vet to force the Slann in the second rank.

Better AS, better protection for the Slann, cheaper and I can get more ranks of Saurus instead.

Do you guys use Temple Guards? I find it difficult to justify their cost especially if I am going to use them in close combat. If TG is not used in close combat, I might as well just put my Slann with a bunch of Skinks for look out sir.... no?
 
Temple Guard have Scaly Skin and Light Armour, so they have the same save as Saurus Warriors in combat and a better save vs shooting. They don't get the parry though.

In my rather limited experience, people throw everything and the kitchen sink at them so they need extra bodies. When I run TG and two units of Warriors, I generally feel I could have taken fewer warriors as all the shooting and magic went on the TG anyway. They also tend to attract the strongest close combat units and they will almost always strike last so I think 14 is simply too few at 2000 points. Go big or leave them at home.
 
I have had some success in running my slann in a huge unit of saurus with HW/shields. I usually put the crown of command on the slann (or a scar-vet) to make the unit stubborn. I would make the slann etheral (just in case). This unit is pretty handy to have on the field and should scare the hell out of everyone you play. It does that when I play it. I usually make it with 48 saurus, the slann, and two scar-vets (this should push the slann to the second rank).
 
If you had one Temple Guard left to hit back you shouldn't have broke. Temple Guard are Stubborn when joined with a Slann. You only need one living Temple Guard to maintain Stubborn.
 
Personally, I never take TG unless I can field at least 20 of them with a slann. I've had them fighting bloodcrushers head on, flanked by a manticore, and rear-charged by deamonettes all at the same time and I still won. Granted I had some help from a unit of chameleons rear-charging the bloodcrushers, but still.

Like Anton_S said, TG have a 5+ scaly skin AND light armor AND a shield. That gives them a nice 3+ save from shooting and a decent 4+ save in close combat. Plus they are stubborn (provided you have a Slann) and cold blooded on Ld8, which relates to a 89.3% chance of passing a break test, and if your BSB is close by it turns into a 98.8% chance. They are the closest thing we have to a deathstar, especially with buffs.

I think your miscast was the big issue. Just bring more bodies next time. :smug:

gapton said:
I might as well just put my Slann with a bunch of Skinks for look out sir.... no?
Click to expand...
Not a bad idea. Try it out! Skinks have shields, so they will get the same armor save as your TG used to have, lol.
 
Remember, TG only have a shield if they aren't using Halberds in CC. For this reason, I do not take Halberds. I find that base S4 is enough to punch through just about any block and deal damage, I don't like giving up a 6+ shield and 6+ parry just for +1 strength, which is commonly not needed. If I need the Strength bonus that much, I bring lore of beasts, and just bump the unit +1S and T anyways. Tomb Guard are nasty on their own, but TG are worth more for points, Tomb Guard are cheaper, but we gain the bump in S/T and an extra Attack. That means alot for average dice rolls! Also, our AS is much better than theirs, as we benefit from Scaly Skin. With the Characters you mentioned joining the Tomb Guard bunker, that would flip it into their favor, as they're resurrecting warriors as they slay yours, creating a Tarpit-o-Death. Tomb Kings excel at boosting their cheap tarpit core/special models and making them much much much better.
 
Halberds are not optional for TG, you have then so you must use them.

Supported with a Steg or two and light or life magic they are just about unkillable.

I never field fewer than 16 and I prefer 19+. Our magic is good, but you need some extra wounds so that you can weather a bad turn.

I' a big fan of TG overall.

:clown: As far as failing cold blooded Ld 10 with a re-roll? The odds are 1 in 2908. You just had bad luck!
 
Switchblade said:
Remember, TG only have a shield if they aren't using Halberds in CC. For this reason, I do not take Halberds. I find that base S4 is enough to punch through just about any block and deal damage, I don't like giving up a 6+ shield and 6+ parry just for +1 strength, which is commonly not needed. If I need the Strength bonus that much, I bring lore of beasts, and just bump the unit +1S and T anyways. Tomb Guard are nasty on their own, but TG are worth more for points, Tomb Guard are cheaper, but we gain the bump in S/T and an extra Attack. That means alot for average dice rolls! Also, our AS is much better than theirs, as we benefit from Scaly Skin. With the Characters you mentioned joining the Tomb Guard bunker, that would flip it into their favor, as they're resurrecting warriors as they slay yours, creating a Tarpit-o-Death. Tomb Kings excel at boosting their cheap tarpit core/special models and making them much much much better.
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I'm not convinced you can do this, The halberd is a base weapon for the temple guard (as in it isn't an upgrade)
You have to use the halberd if you "take" it, pg89 BRB, but I don't know of any rule that states you can not take an item that is already on the basic profile for a unit. If there is such a rule, I'm sorry for calling you into question and can you point me to a reference.
 
Aha, thank you for the correction. After referring to pg.89, I was about to declare victory, until I read the paragraph above the one stating that Hand Weapons are always used after all other weapons.
 
Switchblade said:
Tomb Guard are nasty on their own, but TG are worth more for points, Tomb Guard are cheaper, but we gain the bump in S/T and an extra Attack. That means alot for average dice rolls! Also, our AS is much better than theirs, as we benefit from Scaly Skin. With the Characters you mentioned joining the Tomb Guard bunker, that would flip it into their favor, as they're resurrecting warriors as they slay yours, creating a Tarpit-o-Death. Tomb Kings excel at boosting their cheap tarpit core/special models and making them much much much better.
Click to expand...

Tomb Guard are also T4. True, their AS is much worse, but they have the Killing Blow, which in turn can negate our armor. But only a Special Character Arkhan has a special magic weapon that can raise the fallen models as he slays enemies. I'm not sure if you are thinking of the old edition Tomb Kings, but in the new one only spells can resurrect them. On the other hand, a King or Prince in the unit will boost the Tomb Guards WS to 6 or 5, respectively, which along the higher Initiative gives them great edge. Also, as they are Unbreakable by default, it can turn into a looong battle. Denying the buffs from them with your Slann greatly increases your chances. Of course rear or flank charges gives you extra changes to make them crumble. It's not a great match up but if you can engage them on your own terms added with some mundane and/or magical support, it shouldn't be a huge problem.
 
Also, an easy way to kill Unstable Armies, I.e. TK or VC, is to bring lots of static Combat Res. Ranks, BSB, War Banner, etc. This gives you an edge to knock a few models out of their blocks during resolution.
 
Haha

Thanks for the input guys, but it has came to my realization that I did a lot of mistakes in that game, and led to my own defeat.

Firstly, I incorrectly memorized that Temple Guard has an AS of 5+ in close combat, should have been 4+. Mentally, I kept a note that they have worse AS than Saurus (due to perry) and that screwed me over big time since I essentially give away 1 point of AS for the whole game lol my bad.

Secondly, when I was hitting back, although I only had one champion left when hitting back, I forgot to apply the +1 Strength bonus, so I rolled for S4 attacks. LOL again my bad.

Lastly, when I charge into the enemy unit of Tomb Guard, my Slann lost Line of Sight to the enemy wizard (Arkan) because my opponent has placed him at the far corner. I was forced to roll for the miscast and a small detonation killed 5-6 of my temple guards.

I was casting the powerful version of Pha's Protection with 5 dice, which is somewhat asking for a miscast. Moreover, since Pha's Protection only gives my enemy -1 to hit in close combat, it is not really the best way to buff my Temple Guard. I was planning to cast Speed of Light and also Time Warp too, I have even counted and reserved dice for them, however due to loosing all remaining power dice to the miscast, I couldn't and my Temple Guard went into battle unbuffed and nerfed (by my poor memory about AS).

Next time, I will make sure I cast Speed of Light first, making them WS10 I10, the casting value is low enough and with so many dice left my opponent usually will not dispell it. However WS10 and I10 makes a huge difference for Temple Guards and Sauruses. Then I shall attempt to cast small version of Time Warp, giving them reroll failed to-hit (ASF + I10) and 3 S5 hits per model in the front rank, awesome. That should take care of even the most difficult combat situations.

I will try to use them again and see how it goes!
 
gapton said:
Lastly, when I charge into the enemy unit of Tomb Guard, my Slann lost Line of Sight to the enemy wizard (Arkan) because my opponent has placed him at the far corner. I was forced to roll for the miscast and a small detonation killed 5-6 of my temple guards.
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You say you were "forced to roll for the miscast" because the enemy wizard was out of your line of sight. If you had Cupped Hands, then I think you played it wrong. First, you roll to avoid the miscast. Then, you can pass it to an enemy wizard in line of sight. If there is no wizard in LOS, you can't pass the effects but you still can ignore the miscast.
 
MI_Tiger said:
gapton said:
Lastly, when I charge into the enemy unit of Tomb Guard, my Slann lost Line of Sight to the enemy wizard (Arkan) because my opponent has placed him at the far corner. I was forced to roll for the miscast and a small detonation killed 5-6 of my temple guards.
Click to expand...

You say you were "forced to roll for the miscast" because the enemy wizard was out of your line of sight. If you had Cupped Hands, then I think you played it wrong. First, you roll to avoid the miscast. Then, you can pass it to an enemy wizard in line of sight. If there is no wizard in LOS, you can't pass the effects but you still can ignore the miscast.
Click to expand...
If that is true that is a +1 to the number of mistakes I make in that game! LMAO how can I make so many mistakes in one game hahahaha

Well lesson learned and I'm planning for a come back in a 2000pts rematch!
 
The important thing with that match up vs his boosted tomb guard is that the characters in it make the unit so much more powerful. If you can kill one of them, either the prince or ramhotep before they strike then they lose his bonus. The problem is saurus are I 1, Temple guard and I 2 and our scar vets are only I 3. Tomb guard are I 3 so they would strike the same time as a scar vet and before the others. Ideally I would try to kill ramhotep, he has 2 wounds, toughness 4 and ws 3 and gives the whole unit frenzy and hatred. Much easier to kill than the prince.

Basically you are looking at using an oldblood in that unit (I4) and making sure when you charge he is in base contact with ramhotep or a skink chief (I6) to deny the tomb guard the bonuses (avoid challenging, he will accept with champ/prince). If you fail to kill him before the tomb guard strike then they will bring the pain on you like they did before. You could try to kill him before the unit gets into combat with your main blocks, death magic sniping, skink unit into the front, it'd be suicidal for them but they'd strike first (I4) and you could get about 4 - 6 attacks on him depending if hes on a corner or not (small chance of killing him :shifty: )
 
Bring a Scar-Vet, give him Sword of ASF. Challenge. Goad your opponent with "He's only a hero, how bad can it be? He's got the same wounds, you go first, have better Init, etc." until he accepts and wipe the floor with him.Your opponent can always ask to see the stat profile, but not the items you gave to him.

Or bring Lore of Death. Either works.
 
If he has any sense then he will accept the challenge with a champion... and then resurect him next magic phase with an augment. That tactic may work once but it won't again lol o_O

Scar vets have same initiative as princes and kings too xD
 
Hello,

I was a big fan of fielding a solo Slann, because I used Heaven or Shadow. But in My last game I've fielded 20 TG with FCG. My champion had the MR1 Item (combined with the EotG aura I had a 4+ save from Magic Missiles:) and the Standard Bearer had the Hunachis blessed totem. The Slann was a BSB and had the Banner of swiftness and Life magic. M5 TG with 3d6 on the first charge was awesome! But i feel like 16 (in ranks of 4) would do just as good. You have stubborn and more units attack you:)
 
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