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8th Ed. The BEST close combat units in all of Warhammer ~BONUS MATCHES~

Lizards of Renown said:
Savage Orcs man.... What a bunch of crazily effective little MFs... If I had an Orcs & Gobs army, I'd have at least 2 units of this. Ready to scare the crap out of other players with Big Stabbas... Awesome!
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They were my buddy's staple unit. I giant deathstar of 50+ Savage Orc Big'uns with several characters in it. Among the characters was a combat lord/hero and a wizard with the Lucky Shrunken Head magic item which improved the unit's ward save from 6+ to 5+.
 
NIGHTBRINGER said:
They were my buddy's staple unit. I giant deathstar of 50+ Savage Orc Big'uns with several characters in it. Among the characters was a combat lord/hero and a wizard with the Lucky Shrunken Head magic item which improved the unit's ward save from 6+ to 5+.
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In my opinion, they’re one of the most amazing units O&Gs have. Mainly due to being freaking CORE troops.
 
Lizards of Renown said:
In my opinion, they’re one of the most amazing units O&Gs have. Mainly due to being freaking CORE troops.
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Agreed. They are fairly cheap for what they offer. They provide the Orcs & Goblins with a very dangerous Deathstar unit, and as you state, they come out of core points. I think they are the best core choice available to the O&G.

They form an effective backbone in most O&G armies.
 
NIGHTBRINGER said:
Agreed. They are fairly cheap for what they offer. They provide the Orcs & Goblins with a very dangerous Deathstar unit, and as you state, they come out of core points. I think they are the best core choice available to the O&G.

They form an effective backbone in most O&G armies.
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Yep. Having a Core troop option that has a ward save is pretty good, considering that most troops have a 5+ armour save at best, having a unmodifiable 6+ save is a pretty good deal. Frenzy means that they are immune to psychology until they lose their first combat, so they can't even be potentially broken with a 25% casualty from shooting. You need to kill them off. Put a General near them for a leadership buff (or a character in the unit) and they're pretty dangerous.

Obviously fairly vulnerable to missile fire as a T4 with 6+ save will only take you so far, but for core they're great. I personally think they are better than Witch Elves, even though they were beaten by them in the standings.
 
Lizards of Renown said:
I personally think they are better than Witch Elves, even though they were beaten by them in the standings.
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yep, we know that those matches were played in a vacuum. They give a good evaluation of the unit's power, but real games have a much greater number of factors that modify the things.
 
Lizards of Renown said:
Obviously fairly vulnerable to missile fire as a T4 with 6+ save will only take you so far, but for core they're great. I personally think they are better than Witch Elves, even though they were beaten by them in the standings.
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Killer Angel said:
yep, we know that those matches were played in a vacuum. They give a good evaluation of the unit's power, but real games have a much greater number of factors that modify the things.
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That is an interesting thought gentlemen. Each unit definitely has its relative merits and an argument can be made for either, but personally I'd go for the Witch Elves over the Savage Orc Big'uns.

Considering the armies I own, would I field a unit with the Witch Elves' stats/rules if I had access to them:
  • Warriors of Chaos.... YUP
  • Lizardmen.... YUP
  • Chaos Dwarfs.... YUP
  • Tomb Kings.... most definitely YUP

Like you guys said, they do have their weaknesses, but they are such a solid core choice. Getting such an elite level unit out of core tax is a huge plus. Additionally, consider that their shortcomings can be partially mitigated as a Cauldron of Blood grants them a 5+ ward save and the inclusion of Hellebron can counter armor. Although at that point, you're definitely fielding them as a pure Deathstar unit.

Templates will forever be the bane of their existence with their small bases, T3 and no armour. Salamanders, Magma Cannons and the like will devastate them.
 
NIGHTBRINGER said:
That is an interesting thought gentlemen. Each unit definitely has its relative merits and an argument can be made for either, but personally I'd go for the Witch Elves over the Savage Orc Big'uns.
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Interesting...

NIGHTBRINGER said:
Considering the armies I own, would I field a unit with the Witch Elves' stats/rules if I had access to them:
  • Warriors of Chaos.... YUP
  • Lizardmen.... YUP
  • Chaos Dwarfs.... YUP
  • Tomb Kings.... most definitely YUP
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Don't get me wrong, if I had a Witch Elf stat unit I would definitely field it too.

NIGHTBRINGER said:
Like you guys said, they do have their weaknesses, but they are such a solid core choice. Getting such an elite level unit out of core tax is a huge plus. Additionally, consider that their shortcomings can be partially mitigated as a Cauldron of Blood grants them a 5+ ward save and the inclusion of Hellebron can counter armor. Although at that point, you're definitely fielding them as a pure Deathstar unit.

Templates will forever be the bane of their existence with their small bases, T3 and no armour. Salamanders, Magma Cannons and the like will devastate them.
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You can do the same with the Lucky Shrunken Head with a character with the Savage Orcs.

I guess really it comes down to M5 versus T4. Do you need your troops to arrive as fast as possible? Then M5 would be the way to go, but you're gonna get knobbled on that T3 no armour, no ward save unless you invest quite a bit with that Cauldron of Blood.

The T4 thing still gets me. Plus not requiring a character to have a save and it costing max half to get the same effect of the 5+ ward save. They can also take the Big Stabbas for impact hits without having to take a character.

Of course, there's always the animosity rule to count in... which can be very inconvenient...

All in all, personal fluff dislikes aside, I'd still want to have a unit with a higher toughness and at least SOME protection naturally. Not to mention that you can have TWO FRICKIN' HUGE UNITS of these bad boys if you wanted to. Heck, you could make your core all Savage Orcs... Pretty scary concept....

In case not obvious, if my friend that I play with mostly didn't already have an O&G army, I'd definitely get one.

Currently still eyeing up that Lost Kingdom set of Chaos Dwarves...
 
Lizards of Renown said:
I guess really it comes down to M5 versus T4. Do you need your troops to arrive as fast as possible? Then M5 would be the way to go, but you're gonna get knobbled on that T3 no armour, no ward save unless you invest quite a bit with that Cauldron of Blood.

The T4 thing still gets me. Plus not requiring a character to have a save and it costing max half to get the same effect of the 5+ ward save. They can also take the Big Stabbas for impact hits without having to take a character.
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Lizards of Renown said:
I'd still want to have a unit with a higher toughness and at least SOME protection naturally.
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Defensively, the Savage Orcs enjoy a pretty big advantage. T3 vs T4 and they have a ward save to the Witch Elves' nothing. When it comes to shooting or most magic (outside of something like a Purple Sun or Pit of Shades) the Savage Orcs are far more difficult to remove off the field. Once it gets into actual close combat, their defensive advantage disappears. The Witch Elves follow the old axiom "the best defense is a good offense". Their advantage is that they almost always strike before their opposition, while the Savage Orcs, with I2, almost always strike after their opponents. So while the Witch Elves have no actual defense to speak of, they typically have less attacks coming back at them because they've decimated the enemy. Still, I have to concede the point that the Savage Orcs are more resilient.

While defensively the Savage Orcs have an advantage, offensively (against most opponents) the Witch Elves reign supreme. Even though they each boast 3 attacks and the Savage Orcs enjoy a strength advantage, poison and re-rolling to hit seems to win the day. The tournament definitely showed that, overall, the Witch Elves were more offensively potent (they even took down the Destroyer!). Additionally, the Savage Orcs are a lot less scary once their Choppas rule ends after the first round of combat. The one caveat of course is that the Witch Elves are terrible against really good armour saves. Against 4+ or higher, they do very well, at 3+ things get dicey and they really struggle against 2+ or better.

The movement advantage is pretty negligible, but the extra point of leadership is admittedly pretty nice to have.

So I guess it comes down to what you're looking for in a unit. They each have their relative advantages:

Witch Elves:
  • ASF + I6
  • better movement and leadership
  • poison
  • no Animosity
Savage Orc Big'uns:
  • higher toughness
  • 6+ ward save
  • better strength
  • more unit options
Lizards of Renown said:
They can also take the Big Stabbas for impact hits without having to take a character.
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True, but is it worth it to pay 20 points for impact hits on a M4 frenzied infantry unit?

Lizards of Renown said:
Not to mention that you can have TWO FRICKIN' HUGE UNITS of these bad boys if you wanted to. Heck, you could make your core all Savage Orcs... Pretty scary concept....
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But only 1 unit per army can be upgraded to "Big'uns".

Also, the Witch Elves are a core choice themselves, so you can take as many of them as you like.

Both are great core units. I recognize the value in each, but if I had access to only one of them, I'd go with the Witch Elves. I can understand though how someone else might choose the Savage Orcs instead.

Lizards of Renown said:
All in all, personal fluff dislikes aside
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We definitely differ here, I love the Witch Elves. Some of the best models that GW has produced, and by far my favourite in the Dark Elves line.

Lizards of Renown said:
Currently still eyeing up that Lost Kingdom set of Chaos Dwarves...
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It would be awesome if you got them. While I prefer their Forge World sculpts, the Lost Kingdom models are also amazing (and are not insanely priced). I could always use another Chaos Dwarf ally.
 
NIGHTBRINGER said:
Defensively, the Savage Orcs enjoy a pretty big advantage. T3 vs T4 and they have a ward save to the Witch Elves' nothing. When it comes to shooting or most magic (outside of something like a Purple Sun or Pit of Shades) the Savage Orcs are far more difficult to remove off the field. Once it gets into actual close combat, their defensive advantage disappears. The Witch Elves follow the old axiom "the best defense is a good offense". Their advantage is that they almost always strike before their opposition, while the Savage Orcs, with I2, almost always strike after their opponents. So while the Witch Elves have no actual defense to speak of, they typically have less attacks coming back at them because they've decimated the enemy. Still, I have to concede the point that the Savage Orcs are more resilient.

While defensively the Savage Orcs have an advantage, offensively (against most opponents) the Witch Elves reign supreme. Even though they each boast 3 attacks and the Savage Orcs enjoy a strength advantage, poison and re-rolling to hit seems to win the day. The tournament definitely showed that, overall, the Witch Elves were more offensively potent (they even took down the Destroyer!). Additionally, the Savage Orcs are a lot less scary once their Choppas rule ends after the first round of combat. The one caveat of course is that the Witch Elves are terrible against really good armour saves. Against 4+ or higher, they do very well, at 3+ things get dicey and they really struggle against 2+ or better.

The movement advantage is pretty negligible, but the extra point of leadership is admittedly pretty nice to have.

So I guess it comes down to what you're looking for in a unit. They each have their relative advantages:

Witch Elves:
  • ASF + I6
  • better movement and leadership
  • poison
  • no Animosity
Savage Orc Big'uns:
  • higher toughness
  • 6+ ward save
  • better strength
  • more unit options

True, but is it worth it to pay 20 points for impact hits on a M4 frenzied infantry unit?


But only 1 unit per army can be upgraded to "Big'uns".

Also, the Witch Elves are a core choice themselves, so you can take as many of them as you like.

Both are great core units. I recognize the value in each, but if I had access to only one of them, I'd go with the Witch Elves. I can understand though how someone else might choose the Savage Orcs instead.


We definitely differ here, I love the Witch Elves. Some of the best models that GW has produced, and by far my favourite in the Dark Elves line.


It would be awesome if you got them. While I prefer their Forge World sculpts, the Lost Kingdom models are also amazing (and are not insanely priced). I could always use another Chaos Dwarf ally.
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After everything is said and done, I think it's horses for courses. The Savage Orcs will do better in certain circumstances and same with Witch Elves.

Undeniably (not counting fluff) Witch Elves are hard core (geddit? ;) )
 
Good news for all the Chaos Dwarf generals and fans following this thread (translation: @NIGHTBRINGER is personally happy). When working on the upcoming K'daai Destroyer vs. Bull Centaur Renders with HW&S matchup, I realized that an error was made in previous matchups. The Bull Centaurs were not given their parry save that they are entitled to. For some reason I was under the misguided impression that only infantry with HW&S were entitled to a parry save. After a little bit of investigation, it is clear that being infantry is not a requirement, but rather that a model can't be mounted. The Bull Centaurs are clearly not mounted models (or they would get that sweet 1+ bonus to their armour save), so they are in fact entitled to a parry save.

I had previously completed two matches involving the HW&S Bull Centaurs. The first was against the Witch Elves, who they had (and continue to have) a Massive Victory against. The second one was against the Beasts of Nurgle, which was originally calculated as a victory for the Beasts, but with the addition of the Parry Save, the victory flips in favour of the Bull Centaurs. Both matchups have been updated (and are linked above).
TZSeMZlKFekaA.gif

Up next will be the aforementioned Bull Centaur HW&S vs. Destroyer matchup. Somehow I doubt that anyone expects their parry save to save them from the wrath of the mighty Destroyer!
 
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