8th Ed. The BEST close combat units in all of Warhammer.

Let's finish round 6. Let the puss, germs and guts fly, it's Nurgle vs. Nurgle. Chaos Warriors vs. Beasts of Nurgle.

Key rules in play:

• Chaos Warriors: MoN
• Beasts of Nurgle: DoN, Daemonic, Poisoned Attacks, Random Attacks (D6+1), Regeneration

Easy win for the Beasts of Nurgle and yet another loss for the fledgling Chaos Warriors. The Beasts of Nurgle going narrow (3 wide) really puts the Chaos Warriors in a very difficult position. First, the Chaos Warriors can only get 6 models into b2b, and secondly, it gives the Beasts a second rank which threatens the Warriors Steadfast very early on (they barely hold onto it in round 1 and lose it by round 2). That is the power of Monstrous Beasts (and infantry), they can form up fairly narrow and still benefit from the majority/all of their attacks due to the fact that they can make up to 3 supporting attacks.

With that, the Beasts of Chaos move into 5th place and are in my opinion legitimate contenders for the podium. The Warriors of Chaos on the other hand find themselves in the bottom four!!!!



So does anyone share my optimism for the Beasts of Nurgle? I'd say they are contenders for the top 3, have an extremely good shot for at least the top 5 and are virtually assured of the top 8. And what of the Chaos Warriors, I see no hope for them, agree... disagree??

Up next, the start of round 7!

 

That's fair enough! The Skullcrushers are definitely going to have a lot of competition. They will have to pull off some wins in some very tough matches.

I wouldn't bet on that. That has a Massive Victory (for the Witches) written all over it!!

 

Round 6 is officially over. Interesting fact, all 8 matches in the round ended with a Massive Win/Loss result!

 

Well, my hopes are well and truly dashed on the WoC coming in the #1 spot.

I think, all things considered, the K'Daai will be #1, Beasts of Nurgle #2 and Witch Elves #3.

 

Those are some solid picks. All of them are powerhouses!

 

@Lizards of Renown , @Killer Angel , @Imrahil , @Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl (and anyone else following the thread)...

This is purely a fun question, in your heart of hearts, which single unit are you cheering for the most to win and which unit would you love to see come in dead last? Your choice should have nothing to do with who you think will win or lose. Also, consider the question completely separate from any picks/bets you've made in this thread. Simply which unit would you like to see win the most and which unit would you like to see lose the most.

I'll go first...

To Win - K'daai Destroyer.

• Simply put, two of the armies I own have units in the tourney, the Chaos Dwarfs and the Warriors of Chaos. The WoC are already a complete powerhouse army and are in no need of further help. The Chaos Dwarfs however, have strong elements but are a smaller faction and are missing many of the units that would be included in a full Chaos Dwarfs army book. Many of their fighting units, special rules and war machines are outshined by the equivalent offerings from the vanilla Dwarfs or even the Empire (in the case of the Iron Daemon vs. Steam Tank). As such, I like the idea of them being able to put down a powerhouse unit to give them a solid chance to compete against the middle and maybe even upper tier armies. The K'daai Destroyer, represents that hope. Plus I've had a few fun debates over on the EEFL forum where I have had to defend the K'daai Destroyer as a good/elite unit. Some of the other members expressed doubt about the K'daai's effectiveness against skilled generals.

To Lose - White Lions of Chrace

• I just don't like High Elves (sort of how like @Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl does not like Vampire Counts or Empire)! I like the Wood Elves and the Dark Elves, but the High Elves have always rubbed me the wrong way. I've never been a huge fan of their models and lore-wise they aren't my cup of tea either. It brings me great joy to see them stomped by the competition!

 

My choices in this regard are quite straightforward.

Winner: Har Ganeth Executioners. With single purpose in life, deadly skill and sharp blade these swordsmen achieve impressive results. No vile sorcery or fearsome beasts, just commitment and a large draich. Also their models in 6th and 7th editions looked fantastic.

Loser: Soul Grinder. It just does not belong here, model-wise.

 

For me, it was and will continue to be (despite their current position and their no way of winning) the Mournfang Cavalry.

It's a purely personal thing. I LOVE the OK army. It's so kooky, strange and quirky. I have read that OK army is upper-middle tier and I liked the idea of them doing really well.

Plus the fact that I have 12 and was kind of hoping that they would show themselves to be a fearsome bunch... ah well.

To lose is the White Lions. As can be surmised from my posts in this thread so far, I intensely dislike the High Elves for their lore and fluff. I know they are vying for top spot of most over-powered army and was honestly considering them when I was choosing which armies to collect. But... they just didn't speak to me. I have to LIKE the army I am collecting and their innate arrogance and haughtiness is like nails on a blackboard for me. I actually chose OK over them, as I really liked the fluff/lore of the OK and the fact that I'd be able to play bad or good with them as I wanted.

 

Then I hope you are enjoying their performance thus far. Pretty impressive.

Model-wise the soul grinder is my least favourite too. The model is fine for 40k, but it doesn't feel like a fantasy model.

Ogre Kingdoms are a really cool force. They have a bit of the Orcs & Goblins' flavor and fun, but model-wise they are one of the most unique armies in WFB. Plus, I like the silly Gnoblars! There is something about those crazy little things that I like much more than ordinary goblins.

Plus your Ogres make for some fine slaves for my Chaos Dwarfs!!

Here's hoping that the Mournfang can pick up a few surprising victories along the way.

 

It's about time we start up round #7. To open the round we have Black Guard of Naggarond vs. Hell Pit Abomination!

Key rules in play:

• Black Guard: ASF, Murderous Prowess, Stubborn
• HPA: Regeneration (4+), Stubborn, Special Close Combat Attacks

This was a short, but great scrap. The Black Guard put up a good fight, but after having its four fight win streak broken by the Destroyer in the previous round, the HPA is back to its winning ways.

T5 and regeneration kept the HPA in the game (barely), but ultimately the Black Guard didn't have the defense necessary to stave off the big beastie. Being consistently wounded on a 2+ and having their armour completely negated eventually did the Black Guard in. Still, I'd say it was an impressive performance on their part, even if it was a losing effort in the end. The HPA is a formidable opponent, especially at such a low points level.



HPA once again proves that it is a serious contender in this tournament. It has won 5 of its 7 matches. Most of those wins are not of the massive variety, but they can still add up. Any guesses as to what rank the HPA might be able to attain by tournament's end?

 

To win I like the Orc Big'Uns. I always fancy me some fantasy orcs

And to lose: The Soul Grinder because exactly this:

Grrr, Imrahil

 

Match time... K'daai Destroyer versus Witch Elves!!

Key rules in play:

• Witch Elves: ASF, Frenzy, Murderous Prowess, Poisoned Attacks
• K'daai Destroyer: Unstable, Unbreakable, Blazing Body, Bound Fire Daemon, Frenzy (D3 attacks)

The K'daai's Massive Victory streak is finally broken, but it took their greatest hard counter in the tournament to do so. The Witch Elves always posed the most significant threat to the K'daai due to their massive number of re-rollable poisoned attacks. Still, the Dawi-Zharr celebrate on this day, because even the most tailor made opponent to bring low the Destroyer could not manage a Massive Victory. At the onset of the tournament, I identified 4 units (Witch Elves, Beasts of Nurgle, Skullcrushers and Soul Grinder) with the potential to threaten the Destroyer. They all possessed some combination of abilities to exploit the few weaknesses the Destroyer has. The Soul Grinder managed to loss massively, while the Witch Elves and Beasts were able to pull off victories. Only the Skullcrushers remain now and their battle is likely to be a non-Massive result for one side or the other. With the Witch Elves out of the way, I predict that the K'daai Destroyer will be the only unit to have not sustained a Massive Loss by tournament's end.

Despite not being of the Massive variety, the victory brings a much needed point to the Witch Elves tally, moving them into a tie for second with the Skullcrushers. The K'daai Destroyer still maintains a 3 point lead over second place.





What do you guys think of the Destroyer finally having its win streak broken? Is the fact that it only suffered a "regular" (non-massive) loss as significant in your mind as it is in mine?

 

Agreed... their time is coming. Skullcrushers have to go up against the 2++ ward save White Lions and the Savage Orcs have not yet fought the Destroyer or a bunch of the other powerhouses.

 

For me I’d have thought that’d be obvious given my earlier posts:

To win - Hammerers - For the Karaz Ankor! I hope they’ll be able to pull off at least another couple of wins against the more heavily armoured opponents in the competition, even if they’ll never reach the top.

To lose - Witch Elves.

I loved seeing those evil bitches get run over by the Skullcrushers, and I look forward to seeing the same happening with the Demigryph Knights and Mournfangs!

Funnily enough as an army I don’t mind the Dark Elves too much, but the Witch Elves I really don’t like as I’ve mentioned in a previous post. I feel Warriors of Chaos are still more OP than Dark Elves as a whole, because with Dark Elves you can at least shoot them to pieces before they have a chance to get into melee (which is much more difficult with WoC) but in this tourney the Chaos Warriors are of a subpar build, and the Skullcrushers actually got humbled by the Demigryph Knights and the Hell Pit Abomination which was interesting to see (with the latter being available to me as a Skaven player), so I’m actually less inclined to vote against them. The Dark Elf units on the other hand are the best of their roster and the Witch Elves are by far my least favourite Dark Elf unit. They by all accounts should have lost so many times over, yet a few silly special rules have saved their arses many times over.

 

Please, tell us how you really feel!

So what's worse, Witch Elves, Ahsoka Tano, Wesley Crusher or Vampire Counts?

I guess it depends on the army. The case of the Warriors of Chaos, it is very difficult to prevent the Dark Elves from hitting their lines. However, the Wood Elves probably feel differently and much more in line with what you suggest.

From what I have read, the "general consensus" (and I use that term loosely) is that the WoC and Dark Elves are roughly on par, and are both perhaps the smallest of fractions weaker than the High Elves, who are generally or most consistently voted as the strongest. Obviously styles make fights, so it will vary depending on the opposing army, army composition and the general's play-style/experience/etc.

Well the build that was suggested as the best, is the build that I used. I wanted this to be a community effort, rather than just 16 of my personal picks. I think that approach has worked out very well, and we've been rewarded with some interesting and unexpected results (a prime example of this are the Black Guard, but there are many others).

Back to the question at hand, there are generally three main Chaos Warrior builds:

• MoN - Halberds
• MoT - Hand Weapon + Shield
• MoK - Additional Hand Weapon

All three are widely used and accepted. Different generals have different preferences. Only the Slaanesh build is typically considered to be sub-optimal. I prefer either the MoN or the MoT builds myself, and go back and forth between the two, but others may feel differently.

That said, I do not think the Chaos Warriors are as overpowered as you believe them to be. They may seem like the very best, but once the price point is factored in, they are matched or even beaten by others (but still remain very very good). Of course, we'll have to wait until the end of the tourney for a bit more data to either support or refute my theory.

The HPA is damn good and really holding its own against some very stiff competition. Come to think of it, for a guy who complains about the Warriors of Chaos being OP, you do own arguably 2 of the 4 strongest armies in the game (High Elves and Skaven).

Your roster of armies of, High Elves, Skaven, Dwarfs and Orcs & Goblins, are stronger than my ensemble of Warriors of Chaos, Chaos Dwarfs and Tomb Kings. Maybe I'll have to trade in my Lizardmen for some Dark Elves to help even the score (and no, I'd never trade away my Tomb Kings, even though they are by far the weakest of the armies I own).

But those silly rules are what makes Witch Elves. That is literally what you are paying for. All units are reliant on their stat line and/or special rules. I don't feel one is any more valid than the others.

 

So does anyone else have any thoughts on our last two matchups? Black Guard vs. HPA and K'daai Destroyer vs. Witch Elves
Thus far only @Killer Angel has weighed in on what I thought to be two very interesting matchups.

It seems that I distracted everyone with the who would you like to win/lose question!

 

You predicted this one quite well. I remember thinking that it seemed a bit odd that their S3 attacks would be a threat to the K'Daai but the main thing I am taking away from this tournament (I think) is the power of high amount of attacks.

Combined with the ASF re-roll to hit (and Murderous Prowess, re-roll 1's to wound) it's pretty hard core.

However, despite all that, I didn't think that the K'Daai would lose to them... Mis-estimation on my Math-Hammer to be honest.

I haven't analyzed the hard-counters to the K'Daai but I can see it in those units who you predicted to be hard-counters. The fact that it only lost is significant.

Enough with the #1, I want to see what happens with the #2 and #3 spots!