8th Ed. The BEST close combat units in all of Warhammer.

I didn't think that the HPA would be doing this well to be honest. In this line-up, winning 5 out of 7 is definitely very respectable!

 

The key to their victory is their Poisoned Attacks (which admittedly relies on lots of attacks to be effective). Take a look at how many unsaved wounds the Witches scored with their regular hits (0.44 in the first round) versus their poisoned hits (4.00 in the first round). And this is despite the fact that the regular hits are landing at twice the rate of the poisoned hits. If you took away their poison, you could give the Witch Elves 10 attacks per model and they would lose the contest.

The HPA has exceeded my expectations thus far. I knew it was good, but it has had some extremely notable wins in matchups that I thought it would lose.

This is a fair point and must be considered when looking at the results. It is definitely a limitation of our tournament.

 

Next matchup: Mournfang Cavalry versus Hammerers

Key rules in play:

• Mournfang: Thick-skinned
• Hammerers: Stubborn, ASL

And we have ourselves a bit of an upset!! The Mournfang bring low the Hammerers in a matchup that many of us might have speculated the Hammerers would do well in.

The ASL of the Hammerers' great weapons is what did them in. I'm betting that when the Excutioners face off against the Mournfang, they will smash the Mournfang. Striking after your opponent is a very risky proposition in a tournament filled with such killers. You have to have some very serious defense (like the Beasts of Nurgle) to pull it off effectively. Simply put, the Mournfang are able to put out too much damage before the Hammerers could hurt them. Also, the Mournfang's armour (reduced to a 5+) and their parry save prove to be extremely invaluable, as the Hammerers, even when not at full strength, put forth a potent offense. I tried running this contest with the Hammerers 5 wide, but the result is (as expected) even worse for them. Out of sheer curiosity I even tried a matchup at 500 points aside (7 Mournfang vs. 35 Hammerers) and although the gap closed a bit, the Mournfang still won.

So the Mournfang put some more space between themselves and the Spider... and move towards closing the gap between themselves and the Soul Grinder. As for the Hammerers, this is a critical blow. This is the type of matchup they were supposed to do well in. If they lost to the Mournfang, they will definitely lose to the Skullcrushers. In my opinion, their hopes of making any ground in the tournament dies with this matchup. I expect them to finish quite poorly by the time the tournament comes to a close.



Anyone else surprised at the result? Are there any hopes left for the Hammerers? Can the Mournfang overtake the Soul Grinder?

 

HOORAY!

Thundercats.... HOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!

I'm hoping they can overtake the Soul Grinder, but I think it's unlikely.

 

Are you purposefully trying to get me to use my anger and turn to the Dark Side?

That’s a toughie though...

I’d say at the top would be Ahsoka, as she keeps on appearing in Disney Star Wars media when she really should have been executed during Order 66. If her appearance in Rebels and her return in Series 7 of the Clone Wars weren’t enough, now she’s also going to blight series 2 of the Mandalorian, before I’ve even had the chance to see the first one! FFS Disney...

Second I think goes to Vampire Counts because GW clearly should have deleted them and kept Tomb Kings. There’s a massive fan base for Tomb Kings out there that now can’t get many decent models while every other fantasy wargames company under the sun makes traditional undead, so VC fans aren’t exactly short of alternatives. GW were mad when they made this dumb-ass decision.

Third goes to Witch Elves because they’re far too damn powerful for their own good, and were made a Core choice in 8th Edition, but they have no defence against a good Organ Gun or even a round of shots from Thunderers.

Finally Weasley is the least offensive to me because many TNG fans had the sense to complain to the writers and the writers had the sense to phase him out more and more. He’s still insufferable though in the episodes he does feature in.

I might ask you the same question: Which is the worst? Kathleen Kennedy, High Elves, Rian Johnson, J.J. Abrams, Beastmen, Rose Tico or Jar Jar Binks?

I don’t really see those armies as being super-strong compared to WoC. Perhaps it’s because I principally play with what looks cool and thematic in those armies (as I do in my other armies) rather than what’s competitive, as I don’t have a Frostheart and don’t use Banner of the World Dragon with my High Elves and my Skaven don’t have a Hell Pit Abomination.

Another reason is that both High Elves and Skaven have vastly inferior Core choices to Chaos Warriors which can easily be destroyed by shooting, and their strongest units are in the Special and Rare categories and are thus balanced out by the fact that you can’t have an entire army of them and they clash with other Special and Rare choices. The Hell Pit Abomination is an especially good example of this as it’s a Rare choice and thus forces you to choose between it and other good Rare choices like the Warp-Lightning Cannon, Plagueclaw Catapult and Stormfiends. It is certainly entirely possible to have an entire army of Chaos Warriors on the other hand, and players can easily field large deathstar units of 30+.

If you did that you’d also have to forfeit your presence on this forum (only Lizardman players allowed!), and I imagine you wouldn’t want to risk anyone stealing your lead in posts and likes

I would never ask you to commit such a travesty to the superior Undead faction (even if they are ‘only’ superior lorewise and modelwise). They need all the support and love they can get as GW no longer gives them any!

 

You guys make a good (and unintentional) comedy duo.

I laughed about both of these.

 

Join the Dark Side, we have cookies!

It's funny, out of the 4 of those I actually like 3 of them. Only Wesley Crusher bugs me.

Turn about is fair play.

MOST HATED

1. Kathleen Kennedy - She lied to George. She disrespected and ruined the legacy of Star Wars by infusing it with her political nonsense. If she was replaced by someone competent and someone who actually loves and understands Star Wars, everything and everyone else would have fallen in line. It was her direction that led Disney Star Wars astray, the others were merely pawns. I could go on, but I think I have a better way to illustrate the point. Imagine for a second that you are in a perfectly square room. You are in one corner of that room, and in the other 3 you have Kathleen Kennedy, Adolf Hitler and Joseph Stalin. None of you can leave your corners. You alone are given a gun, and it is loaded with 2 bullets. Seeing as everyone is in separate corners, you can't take out more than one person with a single shot. Who do you shoot?
   Spoiler: answer

   Kathleen Kennedy... TWICE!
2. Rian Johnson - While the Rise of Skywalker was arguably the worst film (the Holiday Special doesn't count) of the franchise, TLJ was the most damaging. It marked the true beginning of the end. Up until that point, things could have been turned around. What's worse, is that Rian Jonnson seemed to have taken some sort of the sick pleasure in purposefully upsetting half the fan base (he pretty much directly said as much himself). I wouldn't fancy his chances in a Purge scenario either.
3. Rose Tico - She was there for one reason, identity politics. A dull, boring and useless addition to the franchise. For the record, I assign zero blame to Kelly Marie Tran, nobody could have salvaged that role.
4. Jar Jar Binks - the most annoying character in the franchise (not the worst character, but the hardest to ignore because he is so in your face). He is still significantly better than characters like Rose Tico, L3 and Holdo, because at least the intention behind him was pure. Those other characters were rotten from their inception, while Jar Jar is more of a case of poor execution.
5. BONUS - Stormcast Eternals! Garbage Space Marine knockoffs. The Space Marines would actually be pretty cool if they weren't so ridiculously over emphasized. They are pretty awesome in the Horus Heresy novels I have read, Dawn of War II cinematic trailer and this fan created masterpiece. The SCE are a mere facsimile of the original, and not a very good one. On the plus side though, their presence isn't too bad because they don't affect WFB and I don't really care about AoS anyways!
6. ----after this point, I don't truly hate any of the entries that follow. At best I might dislike or have fairly neutral feelings towards them---
7. J.J. Abrams - I just don't think he is a particularly skilled filmmaker, but he doesn't come off as ill-intentioned. Besides, his hands were tied by the lady in charge. Nobody could have saved that shit show.
8. Beastmen - I think the model range is pretty boring and they are the least interesting of the Chaos factions. They also feel fairly unimportant to the Warhammer fantasy world in my eyes. That said, they elicit no real negative emotion from me. I just have zero interest in them.
9. High Elves - Another army that I have little interest in, but unlike the Beastmen, they at least they have a few models that I really like (Dragons, Phoenixes, Lions). They are also vitally important to the Warhammer lore. I think WFB would be significantly worse off if they were removed, I just have zero interest in collecting and fielding them myself... but taking them down on the battlefield (or this tournament) is oddly satisfying.

But that is a personal choice, you could just as easily field a very soft and fluffy WoC force! That doesn't say anything about the armies themselves.

Perhaps, but they make up for it in different ways. Powerful spell-casting, broken magic items, special rules like army wide ASF, super cheap tarpit units, great leadership or effective shooting. (obviously some of these apply to the HE and others to the Skaven). Besides, Skaven are typically considered to be weaker than WoC, it is the HE that are the top dogs.

P.S. an army composed entirely of Chaos Warriors would be pretty bad in my opinion.

I'd still keep my Slann!

Like matter and anti-matter!! But his commentary and insights are always fun, informative and provide a different lens through which to view things. His presence in discussions is always welcome and appreciated, even if I disagree with 90-95% of his beliefs (and every once in a while we actually end up agreeing on something).

Definitely one of the best members on the forum! (which applies to you as well). But don't tell anyone, mighty Septuple Slann such as myself shouldn't play favourites.

 

Let's keep the party going! Soul Grinder vs. Trolls

Key rules in play:

• Soul Grinder: DoN, Daemonic, Caught by the Claw, Natural Armour (4+)
• Chaos Trolls: Regeneration, Troll Vomit

World's most boring pillow fight. Both units had such difficulty wounding each other. The Trolls couldn't get by the Soul Grinder's T7 and the Soul Grinder has too few attacks to put a significant dent into the trolls. However, once the Trolls lost their rank bonus, it was all over for them. Trolls really need a general's leadership to function right.

A little bit of a tough break for the Trolls. 7 Trolls is 245 points, compared to the Soul Grinder's 260. 8 Trolls would be 280 points. So either the Trolls are down by 15 points or up by 20. If they did have that eighth troll, they would have stuck around long enough to get the Soul Grinder below 50% and thereby change their massive loss to a regular loss. I really hate when such a "coin toss" close decision has such a profound impact on the outcome. Overall though, things should average out in the end.



Was my decision to field 7 trolls instead of 8 fair in your eyes? What do we think of the Soul Grinder picking up two massive points just as the Mournfang were closing in on it?

 

I think it's pretty interesting. The Trolls have been doing fairly well for themselves so far and I genuinely would have predicted them to overpower the Soul Grinder.

I think it's a good example of the Soul Grinder being something not to trifle with. It's a good monster and versatile considering that it is also a moving heavy weapon platform.

I agree with the sentiments that it seems like a 40K unit that got lost (and even the model looks like it's 40K), but I still like the idea of the monster.

Not happy about it closing in on the Thundercats though....

 

Yeah, the Trolls started off the tournament really well, but have since dropped off a great deal. However, they still have many good matchups left.

As others have pointed out, that leadership really fails them!

Very true. It may have a limited number of attacks, but its defense is absolutely sublime. T7, -1 to hit, 4+ armour save and a 5++ ward is no joke. It's one of the very best units in this tourney in terms of defense.

 

One last matchup to close out the weekend. Demigryph Knights vs. White Lions of Chrace

Key Rules in Play:

• Demigryph Knights: Armour Piercing (Demigryph only)
• White Lions: Martial Prowess, Stubborn, ASF and ASL cancel each other out

The Demigryph Knights prevail in a hard fought victory. 1+ armour in conjunction with a healthy pool of wounds proves to be decisive in the end. Even striking second, the Demigryphs manage to endure and the White Lions have limited defense against the incoming counterattack.

The White Lions continue their downward trend and now find themselves in a three-way tie for third last. The Demigryphs on the other hand continue their slow climb up the rankings.



Can the Demigryphs break into the top 5? They currently sit one point below the two contenders tied for 5th place. Will the White Lions win a single match outside of their Banner of the World Dragon hard counters (or against the silly Arachnarok)?

 

This is an especially interesting one - I wonder if the Hammerers can do any better? Against them the Demigryphs wound on 3s rather than 2s and the riders wound on 4s, and in return the Hammerers will get 10 extra attacks from the front rank. Also the Hammerers don’t need to spend 50 points on a magic banner, so will be able to bring greater numbers to the party to make up for them having to strike last.

 

So if I was able to pick an option to answer the question "What unit did you completely under-rate and now wish them to do really well?", then I would pick the Demi-gryph Knights. I really wish they would do really well, but I agree with @Killer Angel that they don't have what it takes to assume one of the top three spots.

I think it's clear that it's a fight between the Skullcrushers, Witch Elves, Executioners and (for at least #3, but not #2) the Beasts of Nurgle.

I re-read the lore on the Demi-Gryphs and I love it. Almost enough for me to start collecting Empire... but sadly the core troops really turn me off the idea of collecting the army.

 

After losing to the Mournfang, I have little faith in them. In this tournament (at least thus far), the Mournfang have been a poor man's version of the Demigryphs. But, we'll have to wait and see, you do bring up some good points.

Awesome. Thanks for the feedback, I'm glad others agree.

I also felt more justified seeing as the Soul Grinder has the Daemonbone claw upgrade (10 points) which it wasn't even using in the matchup anyways. So the matchup should be fairly reflective of an even battlefield encounter.

It's definitely a tough one. I think they have a chance at the top 5, but it might not be a good chance.

I agree with you. In fairness, the banner hurts them in all the other matchups. That match against the hammerers looks to have been swung against them due to the banner.

At least everyone (except for the Black Guard) have been able to claim their free points off the Spider! The White Lions should have no trouble getting their free points too.

The top 3 seems like a bit of a stretch of them, the question is can they break into the top 5?

The question is, can the Demigryphs overtake the Skullcrushers (hear me out). In their head-to-head matchup, the Demigryphs won! That means the Skullcrushers have to make up 2 points just to tie them. I know the Skullcrushers are far ahead of them at the moment, but that is due to strength of schedule. To date, Skullcrushers have not outperformed them in any common matchup. The only common foe they have both faced is the HPA, which they both lost against. The Massive Victories that the Skullcrushers have picked up (Black Guard, Witch Elves, Beasts of Nurgle) should be massive victories for the Demigryphs as well when they face those opponents.

So the question that I've been pondering is against whom can the Skullcrushers perform better against? The K'daai is one obvious answer, but that is offset immediately by the White Lions (who do better against the Skullcrushers). It will be interesting to see things unfold as they start to face more and more common foes. The Skullcrushers will have such an opportunity later this round, it is the match I am most interested in seeing this round.

 

Time for another quick match. Arachnarok Spider versus Chaos Warriors

Key rules in play:

• Arachnarok: Natural Armour (4+), Poisoned Attacks (Spider only), Stubborn, Venom Surge
• Chaos Warriors: MoN

Well the Chaos Warriors were down in the dumps, performing poorly and in need of a confidence boost... so along came the Spider. The Arachnarok may be a good unit on the warhammer battlefield, but in this tourney it is a punching bag. Free points. Same story as always, if it loses combat it breaks.




Of the opponents it has yet to fight, who does the Spider have the best chance against (even if it is still unlikely to win)?

 

That's a good breakdown. I'm inclined to agree with your picks and your assessment that the Spider will still probably lose despite those being its most favourable matchups.

 

Second last match of round 7. Savage Orc Big'uns vs. Beasts of Nurgle...

Key rules in play:

• Savage Orcs: Choppas, Frenzy, Warpaint
• Beasts: DoN, Daemonic, Poisoned Attacks, Random Attacks (D6+1), Regeneration

The Beasts of Nurgle hand the Savage Orcs their first Massive Loss of the tournament. The defensive combo of -1 hit, T5, Regeneration and 4 wounds a model is dirty good!

The Beasts of Nurgle find themselves tied for 4th and only a point out of the top 3. Outside of a few matchups, many of their future opponents will be hard pressed to beat them. A top 3 finish is definitely in play!



Can the Mournfang Cavalry and the Demigryph Knights stop the Beasts of Nurgle, as the Skullcrushers had done before? What about the HPA?

Up next are the Executioners vs. Skullcrushers. This is the match I've been most excited about this round. The Demigryphs had lost massively to the Executioners, so this is a chance for the Skullcrushers to offset their head-to-head loss vs. the Demigryphs. On the flipside, a win by the Executioners would leap frog them over the Skullcrushers in the standings. Both units need this win!!