8th Ed. The BEST close combat units in all of Warhammer.

[Lizards of Renown]

I remember our discussions, but I thought it to be relevant to the topic at hand. I know that we agree on most it!



I wouldn't use the the Carnosaur as an accurate stand-in for monsters in general. I feel the Carnosaur is a pretty weak choice as far as monster mounts go. It simply isn't defensive enough in my opinion.


This is a very interesting discussion (you always seem to have a knack for creating fun and informative conversations!). So much so, that I decided to take a close look at just how prevalent and/or good monsters are. To be honest, I was a bit surprised when I analyzed the topic army by army. These are of course only my personal opinions/classifications.

In terms of stand-alone monsters (i.e. not mounts for lords/heroes)...

Armies with either a good, great or auto-include monster:

• Chaos Dwarfs [K’daai Destroyer]
• Daemons of Chaos [Greater Daemons, Soul Grinder]
• High Elves [Frostheart Phoenix]
• Lizardmen [Stegadon]
• Orcs & Goblins [Arachnarok Spider]
• Skaven [Hell Pit Abomination]
• Tomb Kings [Hierotitan]
• Vampire Counts [Terrorgheist]
• Warriors of Chaos [Daemon Prince, Chimera]
• Wood Elves [Treeman]

Armies with only mediocre or poor monsters:

• Beastmen
• Dark Elves (I know that the Hydra was OP in 7th, not really sure where it stands now)
• Ogre Kingdoms

Armies with no monsters at all [discounting mounts]:

• Bretonnia
• Dwarfs
• Empire

Some of these classifications can be slightly up for debate (i.e. Stegadon, Treeman), while others are pure and simple staples of their respective armies (K'daai Destroyer, Terrorgheist, etc.]. Looking at it more closely, monsters are maybe a bit more prevalent than I gave them credit for. Just some food for thought.

Well, I consider it only fair to chip in with gusto after you've put together some very interesting match-ups/ideas.

This battle one is definitely the best one though.

We should do one on lord builds next. Have a thread wherein anyone can put forwards their best ideas and we can choose best of best and watch the carnage!

 

[Killer Angel]

We should do one on lord builds next.

Blender Vampire Lord will be a must.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Have a thread wherein anyone can put forwards their best ideas and we can choose best of best and watch the carnage!

Or one champion per army!?

With a points cap? 400pts or below?

Blender Vampire Lord will be a must.

Hortennse Lord of the Win!


What about special characters? Hellebron anyone?

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Good catch! Honestly surprised I didn't spot that one since I played Dwarves bakc in the day... I guess @Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl has been busy

Maybe he has been distracted by Beastmen as of late.

 

[Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl]

Good catch! Honestly surprised I didn't spot that one since I played Dwarves bakc in the day... I guess @Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl has been busy

Yes indeed, Dwarfs hate Greenskins with every fibre of their being! Thanks for spotting that @Wyvernaarch, I was busy with other projects at the time and completely missed this fight when it was first posted. Great to see Greenskins getting a taste of Dwarven steel to the face!

And @NIGHTBRINGER Dwarfs also hate Skaven, meaning the Hammerers will get the same benefit against the Hell Pit Abomination!

Maybe he has been distracted by Beastmen as of late.

Yes, you’ve caught me, I’ve been thinking about Beastmen as a potential third Destruction army and was formulating the optimum set of official rules to use them by as GW treated them so badly. I like the whole ‘dark things of the woods’ feel about them and the idea of them being well and truly Chaotic in everything they do, compared to Warriors of Chaos who, despite being evil, funnily enough have brought more Order to Chaos with being more disciplined and relentless.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

And @NIGHTBRINGER Dwarfs also hate Skaven, meaning the Hammerers will get the same benefit against the Hell Pit Abomination!

And the against the pitiful Arachnarok too, they are going to smash that poor thing.

Yes, you’ve caught me, I’ve been thinking about Beastmen as a potential third Destruction army and was formulating the optimum set of official rules to use them by as GW treated them so badly. I like the whole ‘dark things of the woods’ feel about them and the idea of them being well and truly Chaotic in everything they do, compared to Warriors of Chaos who, despite being evil, funnily enough have brought more Order to Chaos with being more disciplined and relentless.

I guess it should come as no surprise, that if you to go down the route of Chaos, it would be with my least favourite Chaos faction! We are the ultimate opposites!

 

[Lizards of Renown]

And the against the pitiful Arachnarok too, they are going to smash that poor thing.

Oh yeah... oh dear, the Arachnarok will definitely be last here.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Oh yeah... oh dear, the Arachnarok will definitely be last here.

Curious, who do you think the Aracknarok will have the best chance against (even if you still feel it will lose)? Can it pull off a regular/minor loss somewhere, or will it go down in straight Massive Losses?

 

[Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl]

I guess it should come as no surprise, that if you to go down the route of Chaos, it would be with my least favourite Chaos faction! We are the ultimate opposites!

Well I would have considered Chaos Dwarfs too if it hadn’t been for GW giving them even less love with regards to support. True there is the Legion of Azgorh list from Forge World, but that list feels half-done compared to the 4th Edition list that preceded it as it has considerably fewer units. I’ve always been surprised with the way GW treated Chaos Dwarfs, as even with the 4th Edition book it was released as a White Dwarf exclusive rather than a fully-fledged army book, as if GW were never going to consider giving them a fair chance. If GW had given them a proper 8th Ed book that expanded what had been seen before with the 4th Ed range and updatedd their aesthetics to the Legion of Azgorh models, as has been done with the Warhammer Armies Project unofficial version, I may well have chosen them as, being a quality army, they would have had a very different feel to my other two Destruction armies, but sadly GW never gave them that luxury, so Beastmen it is.

 

[Killer Angel]

And the against the pitiful Arachnarok too, they are going to smash that poor thing.

I guess this is the first (and hopefully last) time i hear expressions as "pitiful" and "poor thing" referred to the Arachnarok.

 

[Lizards of Renown]

Curious, who do you think the Aracknarok will have the best chance against (even if you still feel it will lose)? Can it pull off a regular/minor loss somewhere, or will it go down in straight Massive Losses?

I think it might pull off something against the Soul Grinder, but otherwise now that I have a grip on how each unit is doing I'm pretty sure it will be straight losses otherwise.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Well I would have considered Chaos Dwarfs too if it hadn’t been for GW giving them even less love with regards to support. True there is the Legion of Azgorh list from Forge World, but that list feels half-done compared to the 4th Edition list that preceded it as it has considerably fewer units. I’ve always been surprised with the way GW treated Chaos Dwarfs, as even with the 4th Edition book it was released as a White Dwarf exclusive rather than a fully-fledged army book, as if GW were never going to consider giving them a fair chance. If GW had given them a proper 8th Ed book that expanded what had been seen before with the 4th Ed range and updatedd their aesthetics to the Legion of Azgorh models, as has been done with the Warhammer Armies Project unofficial version, I may well have chosen them as, being a quality army, they would have had a very different feel to my other two Destruction armies, but sadly GW never gave them that luxury, so Beastmen it is.

Fair enough. I'm obviously of the opinion that WoC and the Chaos Dwarfs are much cooler. Personal taste.

As far as the Legion of Azgorh being incomplete, yeah, there is some truth to it, but they still have plenty enough to fully participate in 8th edition. That said, Beastmen don't really feel like a complete army to me either. They felt incomplete even back when they were updated in 7th edition, and not getting an 8th edition book hasn't helped. Maybe they would feel more like a fully fledged army if they WoC units such as Trolls, Throgg, Kholek, Dragon Ogres, etc.

In terms of models, the Legion of Azgorh clearly comes out on top. Their entire range is stunning... expensive... but stunning. Beastmen on the other hand are looking quite dated. IMHO

As far as rules go, the Chaos Dwarfs are a far more viable army. The CD aren't in that upper tier (WoC, High Elves, Dark Elves... maybe Skaven), but they are extremely solid. Beastmen on the other hand are easily in the bottom three (with TK and Bretonnia). Then again, you already have powerhouse armies in High Elves and Skaven, so at least Beastmen can offer you a good challenge! Plus, you already have Dwarfs, so Chaos Dwarfs are a bit redundant.

I guess this is the first (and hopefully last) time i hear expressions as "pitiful" and "poor thing" referred to the Arachnarok.

Yeah, the competition in this tourney is fierce.

I think it might pull off something against the Soul Grinder, but otherwise now that I have a grip on how each unit is doing I'm pretty sure it will be straight losses otherwise.

Funny you should mention the Soul Grinder, that is one of the remaining matches set for this round. I think their best chance is either against the Soul Grinder as you suggested or the Black Guard. The Soul Grinder has very few attacks, no ranks, no standard, while the Black Guard will need 6's to wound the Spider.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Match time! For this bout we feature two regenerating units. Chaos Trolls vs. Beasts of Nurgle!

Key rules in play:

• Trolls: Regeneration
• Beasts of Nurgle: Daemon of Nurge, Daemonic, Poisoned Attacks, Random Attacks (D6+1), Regeneration

Well.... that was... quick! Trolls lose by 1, and even when Steadfast, leadership 4 is going to fail you. I tried the Trolls 3 wide, for an extra point of rank bonus, but what combat resolution they gain, they lose via less attacks and less wounds inflicted. Similarly, the Troll Vomit special attack is of no help as their unsaved wounds output is exactly the same as with their regular attacks. So basically, its just a horrible matchup for the Trolls.

In regards to the Beasts of Nurgle, they really are a special unit combining the best traits of many of our other competitors:

• the poison of the Witch Elves
• the regeneration of the Trolls
• the -1 to hit of the Nurgle Chaos Warriors
• Unbreakable / Daemonic Instability of the Soul Grinder

On top of that, they have a very good pool of wounds for their points cost and a large number of attacks. They don't have the stupidity and leadership issues of Trolls and nor are Flaming Attacks that much of a problem to them (their 5+ ward save isn't that big of a drop from their 4+ regeneration save). They are basically better than the Trolls in every conceivable way, except for one, anti-armour. As such, I'm curious to see how they will fair against the Skullcrushers, Demigryphs and to a lesser extent the Mournfang Cavalry. Can they overcome their mighty armour with only S4?

They might very well be the dark horse of the tournament. None of us have spent much time talking about them, but aside from the Banner of the World Dragon shenanigans, they are undefeated. Not only that but look who they have beaten:

• the Witch Elves
• the Trolls
• the K'daai Destroyer

All three of those units currently sit in the top 8 of the tournament! Might we be looking at a top 5 finisher? top 3?

Enough musings I suppose, on to the updated table:



And as always... Thoughts? Concerns? Discussion!!

 

[Imrahil]

Match time! For this bout we feature two regenerating units. Chaos Trolls vs. Beasts of Nurgle!

Key rules in play:

• Trolls: Regeneration
• Beasts of Nurgle: Daemon of Nurge, Daemonic, Poisoned Attacks, Random Attacks (D6+1), Regeneration

View attachment 81694

Well.... that was... quick! Trolls lose by 1, and even when Steadfast, leadership 4 is going to fail you. I tried the Trolls 3 wide, for an extra point of rank bonus, but what combat resolution they gain, they lose via less attacks and less wounds inflicted. Similarly, the Troll Vomit special attack is of no help as their unsaved wounds output is exactly the same as with their regular attacks. So basically, its just a horrible matchup for the Trolls.

In regards to the Beasts of Nurgle, they really are a special unit combining the best traits of many of our other competitors:

• the poison of the Witch Elves
• the regeneration of the Trolls
• the -1 to hit of the Nurgle Chaos Warriors
• Unbreakable / Daemonic Instability of the Soul Grinder

On top of that, they have a very good pool of wounds for their points cost and a large number of attacks. They don't have the stupidity and leadership issues of Trolls and nor are Flaming Attacks that much of a problem to them (their 5+ ward save isn't that big of a drop from their 4+ regeneration save). They are basically better than the Trolls in every conceivable way, except for one, anti-armour. As such, I'm curious to see how they will fair against the Skullcrushers, Demigryphs and to a lesser extent the Mournfang Cavalry. Can they overcome their mighty armour with only S4?

They might very well be the dark horse of the tournament. None of us have spent much time talking about them, but aside from the Banner of the World Dragon shenanigans, they are undefeated. Not only that but look who they have beaten:

• the Witch Elves
• the Trolls
• the K'daai Destroyer

All three of those units currently sit in the top 8 of the tournament! Might we be looking at a top 5 finisher? top 3?

Enough musings I suppose, on to the updated table:

View attachment 81695

And as always... Thoughts? Concerns? Discussion!!

Wow that was quick. That is possibly the highest flaw of the Trolls. No matter by how little they lose a round of Battle they will Break easely.
In real games they might survive a round or two if you are lucky, but given our requerment of 7...

Beast of Nurgle can take it a long way, I will guess top 3

Grrr, Imrahil

 

[Lizards of Renown]

Match time! For this bout we feature two regenerating units. Chaos Trolls vs. Beasts of Nurgle!

Key rules in play:

• Trolls: Regeneration
• Beasts of Nurgle: Daemon of Nurge, Daemonic, Poisoned Attacks, Random Attacks (D6+1), Regeneration

View attachment 81694

Well.... that was... quick! Trolls lose by 1, and even when Steadfast, leadership 4 is going to fail you. I tried the Trolls 3 wide, for an extra point of rank bonus, but what combat resolution they gain, they lose via less attacks and less wounds inflicted. Similarly, the Troll Vomit special attack is of no help as their unsaved wounds output is exactly the same as with their regular attacks. So basically, its just a horrible matchup for the Trolls.

In regards to the Beasts of Nurgle, they really are a special unit combining the best traits of many of our other competitors:

• the poison of the Witch Elves
• the regeneration of the Trolls
• the -1 to hit of the Nurgle Chaos Warriors
• Unbreakable / Daemonic Instability of the Soul Grinder

On top of that, they have a very good pool of wounds for their points cost and a large number of attacks. They don't have the stupidity and leadership issues of Trolls and nor are Flaming Attacks that much of a problem to them (their 5+ ward save isn't that big of a drop from their 4+ regeneration save). They are basically better than the Trolls in every conceivable way, except for one, anti-armour. As such, I'm curious to see how they will fair against the Skullcrushers, Demigryphs and to a lesser extent the Mournfang Cavalry. Can they overcome their mighty armour with only S4?

They might very well be the dark horse of the tournament. None of us have spent much time talking about them, but aside from the Banner of the World Dragon shenanigans, they are undefeated. Not only that but look who they have beaten:

• the Witch Elves
• the Trolls
• the K'daai Destroyer

All three of those units currently sit in the top 8 of the tournament! Might we be looking at a top 5 finisher? top 3?

Enough musings I suppose, on to the updated table:

View attachment 81695

And as always... Thoughts? Concerns? Discussion!!

The Beasts of Nurgle really are the Dark Horse. I've never even heard of someone using them to be honest (but then I've not played WoC players overly much).

They're definitely gonna be top 5.

 

[Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl]

Fair enough. I'm obviously of the opinion that WoC and the Chaos Dwarfs are much cooler. Personal taste.

As far as the Legion of Azgorh being incomplete, yeah, there is some truth to it, but they still have plenty enough to fully participate in 8th edition. That said, Beastmen don't really feel like a complete army to me either. They felt incomplete even back when they were updated in 7th edition, and not getting an 8th edition book hasn't helped. Maybe they would feel more like a fully fledged army if they WoC units such as Trolls, Throgg, Kholek, Dragon Ogres, etc.

That’s why I’m going to allow my Beastmen army to be able to take Chaos Trolls, Chaos Ogres, Dragon Ogres and Shaggoths using the WoC rules for them (though ignoring Eye of the Gods for Chaos Ogres because Beastmen don’t use that rule) in my 8th Edition Games, along with the refreshed rules from Ambush and the option to take Marks from End Times: Glottkin, to give them their equivalent of an 8th Edition book, as they were originally able to use those units in their 6th Edition book and to omit these from the 7th book was rather unfair on the writers’ part - in this way, you’re right, their list was incomplete. However even with their 7th Edition book on its own they still have considerable variety in their Core, Special and Rare choices, which is my main problem with the Legion of Azgorh list (only two Core units, though both can have several options).

And now that you mention it, taking Throgg and Kholek wouldn’t look out of place in a Beastmen army either - if Warriors of Chaos are willing to hold their noses follow a smelly Troll king or Dragon Ogre warlord, Beastmen certainly won’t have any problems with it either.

In terms of models, the Legion of Azgorh clearly comes out on top. Their entire range is stunning... expensive... but stunning. Beastmen on the other hand are looking quite dated. IMHO

I don’t know when the Forge World Chaos Dwarfs came out, so I can’t compare them to Beastmen in terms of visuals based on age. Beastmen do have several decent and affordable plastic kits that came out with their 7th Edition book which was one of the last to be released (including the Minotaurs, my favourite of all of the Beastmen kits), and got some more recent gems in the form of the Ghorgon, the plastic Bray-Shaman and a Warhammer Underworlds warband. Better yet these are pretty affordable as their prices date from the Fantasy era. What’s more if I had decided Chaos Dwarfs I would probably have gone with Mantic rather than Forge World as their Chaos Dwarf range has more and cheaper stuff.

As far as rules go, the Chaos Dwarfs are a far more viable army. The CD aren't in that upper tier (WoC, High Elves, Dark Elves... maybe Skaven), but they are extremely solid. Beastmen on the other hand are easily in the bottom three (with TK and Bretonnia). Then again, you already have powerhouse armies in High Elves and Skaven, so at least Beastmen can offer you a good challenge! Plus, you already have Dwarfs, so Chaos Dwarfs are a bit redundant.

And I also have another lower-tier army in the form of Orcs and Goblins, so with Beastmen I’ll have two top-tier (High Elves and Skaven), two middle-tier (Dwarfs and Lizardmen) and two bottom-tier armies. Additionally all my collections mainly consist of the stuff that looks the most thematic and exciting to me, so I’m not too worried about power-level.

 

[Lizards of Renown]

Match time! For this bout we feature two regenerating units. Chaos Trolls vs. Beasts of Nurgle!

Key rules in play:

• Trolls: Regeneration
• Beasts of Nurgle: Daemon of Nurge, Daemonic, Poisoned Attacks, Random Attacks (D6+1), Regeneration

View attachment 81694

Well.... that was... quick! Trolls lose by 1, and even when Steadfast, leadership 4 is going to fail you. I tried the Trolls 3 wide, for an extra point of rank bonus, but what combat resolution they gain, they lose via less attacks and less wounds inflicted. Similarly, the Troll Vomit special attack is of no help as their unsaved wounds output is exactly the same as with their regular attacks. So basically, its just a horrible matchup for the Trolls.

In regards to the Beasts of Nurgle, they really are a special unit combining the best traits of many of our other competitors:

• the poison of the Witch Elves
• the regeneration of the Trolls
• the -1 to hit of the Nurgle Chaos Warriors
• Unbreakable / Daemonic Instability of the Soul Grinder

On top of that, they have a very good pool of wounds for their points cost and a large number of attacks. They don't have the stupidity and leadership issues of Trolls and nor are Flaming Attacks that much of a problem to them (their 5+ ward save isn't that big of a drop from their 4+ regeneration save). They are basically better than the Trolls in every conceivable way, except for one, anti-armour. As such, I'm curious to see how they will fair against the Skullcrushers, Demigryphs and to a lesser extent the Mournfang Cavalry. Can they overcome their mighty armour with only S4?

They might very well be the dark horse of the tournament. None of us have spent much time talking about them, but aside from the Banner of the World Dragon shenanigans, they are undefeated. Not only that but look who they have beaten:

• the Witch Elves
• the Trolls
• the K'daai Destroyer

All three of those units currently sit in the top 8 of the tournament! Might we be looking at a top 5 finisher? top 3?

Enough musings I suppose, on to the updated table:

View attachment 81695

And as always... Thoughts? Concerns? Discussion!!

Funnily enough, I think that this whole contest also highlights how important buffs are:

• General's leadership bubble for low LS troops (case in point with the Trolls here)
• BSB re-rolls
• The entire slew of magical buffs or magic item buffs
• Character buffs simply by being in a unit.

It plays right into the mathhammer, as you want to (ideally) walk into a combat scenario with a 75% chance of success.

We all know that math-hammer is great until you actually get into a combat and the dice gods are angered by your lack of ritualistic sacrifices or homage to their mortal emissaries (not praying enough to the dice or other things) and all of a sudden the combat which should have gone your way suddenly goes completely the opposite.

(I myself have been unable to shake the superstition that rolling dice on the floor gives you better scores... I mean it works every time...)

Anyways, joking aside, especially for non-OP armies, the importance of buffs is paramount and is exactly what I am thinking about when I write my lists: what combinations of troops, flankers and buffs (from all sources above) are going to give me the best edge against the army I'm playing against.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

In case anyone was wondering why there hasn't been a match in some time, I've been busy working on some corrections in the background ( tedious work ). As it turns out, we all missed the fact that the poor Mournfang Cavalry weren't getting their parry save all this time (which due to the Ironfist rules they are able to use even though they are mounted). In all four of their matches, their parry save was omitted. As always, a small change can have a cascading effect that makes a significant difference.

For anyone interested in the calculations, all four of their matchup posts have been updated. Don't forget that there are matchup links in the first post of this tread, so you can find any and all matchups quickly.

In short, the inclusion of their parry save resulted in:

• their previous massive loss against the Chaos Warriors is now only a loss
• their previous massive loss against the Savage Orcs is now only a loss
• their massive loss against the HPA remains a massive loss
• their victory against the Black Guard remains a victory

Obviously, all the update tables from then until now will have the incorrect results for the matchups between the Mournfang and the Chaos Warriors / Savage Orcs.

Here is the corrected table:




And just like that, things look a little brighter for the Mournfang Cavalry. Good news for @Lizards of Renown !

 

[Lizards of Renown]

In case anyone was wondering why there hasn't been a match in some time, I've been busy working on some corrections in the background ( tedious work ). As it turns out, we all missed the fact that the poor Mournfang Cavalry weren't getting their parry save all this time (which due to the Ironfist rules they are able to use even though they are mounted). In all four of their matches, their parry save was omitted. As always, a small change can have a cascading effect that makes a significant difference.

For anyone interested in the calculations, all four of their matchup posts have been updated. Don't forget that there are matchup links in the first post of this tread, so you can find any and all matchups quickly.

In short, the inclusion of their parry save resulted in:

• their previous massive loss against the Chaos Warriors is now only a loss
• their previous massive loss against the Savage Orcs is now only a loss
• their massive loss against the HPA remains a massive loss
• their victory against the Black Guard remains a victory

Obviously, all the update tables from then until now will have the incorrect results for the matchups between the Mournfang and the Chaos Warriors / Savage Orcs.

Here is the corrected table:

View attachment 81759


And just like that, things look a little brighter for the Mournfang Cavalry. Good news for @Lizards of Renown !

Hooray!

Obviously it's only a slight change and I knew they'd never be contenders for the top spot, but it's still nice to see them rise in the ranking from a purely personal feeling about the model.

 

[Killer Angel]

Yeah, this lets them sail away from the last place.
I knew the defensive setting was the right choice for them.