8th Ed. The BEST close combat units in all of Warhammer.

[Lizards of Renown]

Indeed. There were times when the grind was getting tiresome, but having interesting conversation to look forward to really does facilitate motivation. The fun of posting a matchup was reading the feedback, reactions and insights posted in response to it.

Yep, that fully came across. So encouragement was given!

It really is a unique monster. Its base attacks are great against elite expensive opposition, while its Blazing Body auto hits deal with hordes of cheaper troops. So while most units specialize in either anti-armour or anti-horde/numbers, the Destroyer does both.

The Chaos Dwarf player just has to ensure that it isn't met with one of its hard counters, because at 325 points, it is an extremely expensive investment in what is already a very expensive/elite army.

Crazy powerful. Ideally you send your single hero (with either mount or monstrous mount, but NOT a monster) up against him. Like a Saurus Cowboy.

I had a buddy who loved running the big spider in his army. He swore by it, so that's why I didn't peg it to come in dead last.

Yeah, I have the same. A friend tells me stories of battles won with the Spider. But in the end it's the same with anything, it's a tool and can be used well or badly.

The question is how many armies can reliably field large amounts of flaming attacks. Typically it is a single unit with the Banner of Eternal Flame. The nice thing about Trolls is that they are relatively cheap.

I wish I could field Trolls in my Chaos Dwarf army (alongside of K'daai). So do you want to bring flaming attacks or not? (on second thought, I don't think the K'daai need anymore help).

That said, your point is taken. They definitely have more negative mitigating factors associated with them than most units do.

Yeah. They're still great though, especially with the vomit attack handling their low WS.

Thank you kind sir! View attachment 92695

 

[Imrahil]

Great stats and follow-up questions.
I will take some time later this week to get back at those.

(Somehow I have more time during workdays than on my time off )

Grrr, Imrahil

 

[Cptn Timmy]

Another thought, I am curious to see how a unit of khorne or nurgle chaos knights with ensorcelled weapons would do agaisnt the demigryph knights because of their high save lower cost and st5. I have found them to always be compared to skullcrushers as being an inferior option but when I use them on the table top they perform exceedingly well. Especially the nurgle ones. Just a thought.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

I think that a lot of the high performing units have more glaring weakness' than the middle tier fighters.

That's a good point, a lot of the top finishing units do have mitigating factors.

Witch Elves: defenseless, templates
Destroyer: 2+ ward against flaming, poisoned attacks
Trolls: stupidity, flaming atttacks
HPA: flaming attacks
Skullcrushers: Frenzy (unwanted charges, forced overrun)

The Beasts of Nurgle are the obvious exception. There a few magic spells (initiative based ones) that will do the trick, but that is far from a sure thing (need to get the spell, generate enough dice, meet the casting requirements, hope it isn't dispel, etc.)

I would love to have seen how some chaos chosen would perform, although I know their special rules would probably be hard to work out in the tourney.

With chosen it really depends on what they roll on the Eye of the Gods table. They are obscenely expensive though, and generally considered to be an overcosted unit. That said, it they rolled extremely well on the table, it might be interesting. No real way of simulating it in the tournament though.

A far cry from their invincible counterparts in 7th edition!

Another 2 units id like to see would be the frostheart and Phoenix guard because i do think that this tourney showed how valuable a good defense is and if they performed poorly I would be happy to watch.

I like those picks.

Lastly vargheists and or crypt horrors would be cool to see how they perform as they are mostly offensive and defensive respectively.

Vargheists seem too squishy to me. I think a lot of their value comes from their ability to fly, which would be a complete non-factor in the tournament.

Crypt Horrors on the other hand might do quite well. They share quite a bit of similarities with the Beasts of Nurgle (Poison, T5, regeneration). Pretty cheap too.

I wonder how different the results would be if every units LD was 9 or 10, I find that it is more common for units to be within their generals bubble than not, and I wonder if this would vault some units up the ranking or have no effect at all lol.

The trolls would have really benefitted from that. The Arachnarok and Mournfang too. Come to think of it, the Beasts of Nurgle and Soul Grinder lost quite a few wounds to Daemonic Instability, the leadership boost would have helped them out.

Other units like the HPA, K'daai, Hammerers and White Lions would receive no benefit under the current tournament rules.

Again I have to state this tournament is so so damn cool. I can't thank everyone who had a part in keeping it going and especially @NIGHTBRINGER for just a stunning amount of insight in to this excellent game we all love.
Thanks!

Thank you for the kind words. I'm glad to hear that it was enjoyable and worthwhile!!

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

That said, i would change the setting, including 1 unit for each army, to have a entire view and obtain a ranking not only of the units, but also of the "hitting power" of the relative armies.

That would be fun. Plus everyone would have a dog in the race. So which unit would you pick for each army?

I would feel sorry for Bretonnia though, as the tournament does not factor in charges.

White lions. I know the banner is broken, but i thought that without it, they would have been better than this. It's almost their victories are only tnx to the item.

True... but the banner also cost them victories and/or lesser defeats. When the banner was not active in a matchup, they were essentially short 50 points. That is a pretty sizeable lead to forfeit to the enemy, especially in the really close matchups. After all, as a unit, they are pretty similar to the Executioners, who fared much better.

Yeah. They're still great though, especially with the vomit attack handling their low WS.

And completely ignoring enemy armour!! You saw what they did to the premier Monstrous Cavalry units in the game, now imagine what they would do to standard heavy cavalry.

Crazy powerful. Ideally you send your single hero (with either mount or monstrous mount, but NOT a monster) up against him. Like a Saurus Cowboy.

A properly tooled up Cowboy on a CO would bring down the Destroyer quite efficiently.

Another thought, I am curious to see how a unit of khorne or nurgle chaos knights with ensorcelled weapons would do agaisnt the demigryph knights because of their high save lower cost and st5. I have found them to always be compared to skullcrushers as being an inferior option but when I use them on the table top they perform exceedingly well. Especially the nurgle ones. Just a thought.

That would be interesting; although the fact that they have only a single wound per model would likely be their undoing. Demigryphs don't cost that much more, and they have 3 wounds a piece.

 

[Imrahil]

Final Standings:

I like how the standings is a nice split half in red, half in black. To me this shows how balanced the total competition was.

Acknowledgements!

Thank you to everyone who contributed to this thread. Your feedback, analysis, corrections, suggestions and encouragement were all greatly appreciated. I think together, we collectively created something that is rather interesting and unique. Hopefully people have (and will) find it insightful or at the very least... interesting.

I also want to take the opportunity to tip my hat to @Killer Angel , @Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl and @Imrahil , who consistently contributed to our tournament throughout its entire duration.

Last but not least, special acknowledgement is owed to @Lizards of Renown , who was the most consistent contributor to the tournament and thread.



P.S. @Mrs. NIGHTBRINGER is owed an acknowledgement too, behind to scenes she has to listen to me blather on about these things for hours on end (you guys think I post a lot?... imagine the live and unfiltered version of that!). The woman's patience astounds me.

Glad to have been part of this

In my unexperienced view of 8th edition I will try to answer your questions:

1. Going in to this tournament I really don't had any knowledge about any units and what they would behave like, so no over-performing units in my book

2. For Under-performing I could say the same, as I had no expectations going in, though I have heard a lot about Chaos Warriors being OP, but this tournament did prove that wrong. In general the Arachnarok was disappointing.

3. What I wonder is how much including charges would impact on the table. What I know about this is that Cavalry benefits more from charging than infantry units. So most likely you have charged with your Cavalry units. In a matchup between 2 Cavalry units it would cancel each other out, though.
That said it is way unfair on the infantry units...

4. I don't know enough about thr 8th edition units to figure out what quialifies any to be a part of this, although seeing how the spider did do it can not go very much worse
The idea of a contester of every army is a good one, but would this also limit the entries for the armies ready having more than one unit in?

5. Bloody well done @NIGHTBRINGER this is a thread that will go on to be interesting and certainly isn't easily forgotten. I enjoyed every bit of it I applaud you

Grrr, Imrahil

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

I like how the standings is a nice split half in red, half in black. To me this shows how balanced the total competition was.

What I wonder is how much including charges would impact on the table.

Well, the charging unit would obviously get +1 to their combat resolution score in the first round.

Aside from that, a couple of the units have additional bonuses when charging:

• Skullcrushers - the Juggernauts get +1 strength (so S6) on the turn in which they charge
• HPA - does D6 S6 impact hits on the turn in which it charged
• Mournfang - each Mournfang model in base-to-base contact does D3 S5 impact hits on the turn in which they charge

As for how much of a difference those bonuses would make, depends on the matchup. It would be interesting to see.

The tough part is that there is no guarantee a unit will get the charge. Cavalry do typically benefit from greater movement and Swiftstride, but there are many other factors at play (chaff, chaff removal, Strider, supporting units, magic, luck, etc.).

Bloody well done @NIGHTBRINGER this is a thread that will go on to be interesting and certainly isn't easily forgotten. I enjoyed every bit of it I applaud you

Your kind words are appreciated. Thank you.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Since we all bore witness to the might of the K'daai Destroyer, perhaps a few of you might be interested to see the counter argument against it. Over on EEFL I created a thread exploring the merits of the K'daai Fireborn and the Bull Centaurs. However, right from the start the thread, the focus shifts towards the K'daai Destroyer vs. the K'daai Fireborn, with a discussion focused on the pros and cons of the Destroyer.

As a huge Destroyer advocate myself, I take on the role of presenting the pro-Destroyer argument, while another member lists why he feels that the Destroyer is actually not such a great unit against a skilled opponent. Its a pretty interesting discussion and a fine bookend for this tournament. Interestingly, it was a single line from that thread, that formed the original impetus for me to create this tourney!

For those interested, the thread can be found here:
https://eefl.freeforums.net/thread/1625/poll-centaur-renders-kdaai-fireborn

For anyone who takes the time to read the thread, please share your thoughts on the topic (either on here or on EEFL).

 

[Cptn Timmy]

Hey @NIGHTBRINGER
I definitely agree with your thoughts on the vargheists.
In regards to the chosen they are definitely super expensive. I think I they might be my favorite unit so I try to use them whenever possible. For a quick thought experiment I tried to kit out a chosen unit to see if I could find one that could compete with the k'daii and I honestly don't think there is one. I decided to drop any defensive bonuses because t5 or as3+ do nothing against st 7 and the parry doesn't help much either, so I figured great weapons MoK and +1 Attack might be the best option which i thought would do pretty well until I realized that you have to reroll successful wounds agaisnt him.
My God i did not realize how darn good that things stat line and abilities are. Terrifying is the only word I can describe it with. Even with the fire item weakness it's like that character better have enough movement to catch him and God knows if you left that item at home. Honestly how would you deal with it without that? Lol. (Yes I know frenzy is a thing)
Which leads me to: reading through the post on eefl.
I will preface this by saying I have never faced or played a destroyer or any chaos dwarves in general so this is pure conjecture. I find that the eefl forum is very much "something either is or is not" i dont see frenzy as as big a downfall as alot of people seem to think. The part about 330 points vs a 30 pt cat i feel is not a good argument. Anything in this game can get chaffed, and I learned the hard way that if I bring skullcrushers I better use whatever resources I can to get rid of those pesky giant eagles or else ill pay for it later. That does not hamper skullcrishers from being a good unit. Just hard to control. I guess what I'm saying is sure the destroyer has 2 weaknesses and a heavy price tag but don't think that in any means makes it a sub par choice. The tournament is proof of its prowess in combat and m9 and single model means it is quite maneuverable. Sorry if I rambled a bit there and I guess I should probably look in to the other 2 units discussed before I say which is better so I'm not trying to make that decision, all I'm saying is looking at the kdaii destroyer makes me salivate and also want to start a chaos dwarf army. (Could this be because it's forge world -thinking face-) I do not know how the chaos dwarves play as an army but it seems like they have very strong shooting, so if I have to come at you and there is a destroyer waiting in whichever side of the battle field my 2++ fire isn't in really makes me feel like I'd have a bad time. Lol.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

In regards to the chosen they are definitely super expensive. I think I they might be my favorite unit so I try to use them whenever possible. For a quick thought experiment I tried to kit out a chosen unit to see if I could find one that could compete with the k'daii and I honestly don't think there is one. I decided to drop any defensive bonuses because t5 or as3+ do nothing against st 7 and the parry doesn't help much either, so I figured great weapons MoK and +1 Attack might be the best option which i thought would do pretty well until I realized that you have to reroll successful wounds agaisnt him.

While I don't think that Chosen would fair particularly well in our field of contestants, I wouldn't recommend using the K'daai Destroyer as a benchmark. After all, the Destroyer did manage to absolutely smash 12 out of its 15 competitors.

Even with the fire item weakness it's like that character better have enough movement to catch him and God knows if you left that item at home. Honestly how would you deal with it without that? Lol. (Yes I know frenzy is a thing)

In addition to the fire protection, the opposing character must also be mounted in order to prevent the Destroyer from using its Thunderstomp. Thunderstomps do not benefit from any additional rules, so they are not flaming attacks (and hence bypass the Dragonhelm / Dragonbane gem).

As for weaknesses, it does have several counters that work to varying degrees, the more of these you have the better:

• poisoned attacks (as evidenced by the Destroyers losses against the Witch Elves and Beasts of Nurgle)
• magical attacks (only non-magical attacks need to re-roll successful wounds, this was why the Skullcrushers managed to do so well)
• ethereal units

And then there is of course the Dragonbane Gem / Dragonhelm and chaff redirection.

In terms of counters, here are some examples of units off the top of my head (there are more outside of this list):

• Witch Elves
• Beasts of Nurgle
• Poisoned skink shooting can whittle down its wounds.
• A Khalida-star would put a hurting on it.
• Magical cannons.
• VC ethereal units will tie it up forever.

Characters are the best option in my opinion. That is of course assuming that you are tailoring your list against the Chaos Dwarfs and K'daai Destroyer, or that your general build is well set up for the task.

I will preface this by saying I have never faced or played a destroyer or any chaos dwarves in general so this is pure conjecture. I find that the eefl forum is very much "something either is or is not" i dont see frenzy as as big a downfall as alot of people seem to think. The part about 330 points vs a 30 pt cat i feel is not a good argument. Anything in this game can get chaffed, and I learned the hard way that if I bring skullcrushers I better use whatever resources I can to get rid of those pesky giant eagles or else ill pay for it later. That does not hamper skullcrishers from being a good unit. Just hard to control. I guess what I'm saying is sure the destroyer has 2 weaknesses and a heavy price tag but don't think that in any means makes it a sub par choice. The tournament is proof of its prowess in combat and m9 and single model means it is quite maneuverable. Sorry if I rambled a bit there and I guess I should probably look in to the other 2 units discussed before I say which is better so

Agreed. I definitely believe in the prowess of the Destroyer. It is far from invincible, but I think it is an extremely solid option. That said, the gentleman over on EEFL had a different take on the Destroyer, a take which I believe is well thought out and useful to the discussion (even if I ultimately disagree with him).

I simply cannot come to believe that the Destroyer, who was the clear winner of the tournament and capable of hard-countering 95%+ units in the entire game of Warhammer is subpar. Like all units in the game it has some weaknesses. If it didn't have flaming attacks and didn't suffer from Frenzy it would be easily the greatest (non-character) unit in the entire game. It would be completely broken. I think the weaknesses are justified, and even with them, it is still a powerhouse of a monster.

I'm not trying to make that decision, all I'm saying is looking at the kdaii destroyer makes me salivate and also want to start a chaos dwarf army. (Could this be because it's forge world -thinking face-) I do not know how the chaos dwarves play as an army but it seems like they have very strong shooting, so if I have to come at you and there is a destroyer waiting in whichever side of the battle field my 2++ fire isn't in really makes me feel like I'd have a bad time. Lol.

It's a shame that Forge World just recently discontinued the Chaos Dwarf line (along with almost everything related to WFB/AOS).

The Chaos Dwarfs can field some exceptional artillery and shooting. Not as good as the regular vanilla Dwarfs but still a force to be reckoned with. Magma Cannons are especially dangerous. The one thing they are really missing is a conventional cannon (the Hellcannon plays as stone thrower and the Magma cannon plays as an improved version of a Fire Thrower).

Unlike the regular Dwarfs, the Chaos Dwarfs can utilize magic. They also have several faster units in their roster. In terms of infantry, they do fall short of the regular Dwarfs who have more infantry options and more powerful ones. That said, the Chaos Dwarfs have Monsters, Monstrous Beasts, Monstrous Infantry, Cavalry and Unique "steam tank" like unit; all this alongside of their war machines and infantry. It's an interesting force, but models are difficult to find and they have always been a sort of niche army.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Sporadically I aim to run a few matchups in the same style (and using the same rules) as those seen in this thread. It will revolve entirely around units I am interested in and will be mostly drawn from armies that @Mrs. NIGHTBRINGER or myself play (mainly Chaos Dwarf units for now). It is highly unlikely that I will run a unit through the entire gambit of contestants in the tourney, but rather focus on key matchups. I've already run one such battle and even added it to my spreadsheet version of the table of results. It's pretty much just a tool for me to analyze units in my army and to test how I can counter enemy threats.

So the question is, would anyone be interested in seeing the results of such "bonus matches"? ...

• no
• yes, in this thread
• yes, in a separate thread

If you're not really interested, please be honest (you won't hurt my feelings, and will save me the time and effort!)

 

[Imrahil]

Sporadically I aim to run a few matchups in the same style (and using the same rules) as those seen in this thread. It will revolve entirely around units I am interested in and will be mostly drawn from armies that @Mrs. NIGHTBRINGER or myself play (mainly Chaos Dwarf units for now). It is highly unlikely that I will run a unit through the entire gambit of contestants in the tourney, but rather focus on key matchups. I've already run one such battle and even added it to my spreadsheet version of the table of results. It's pretty much just a tool for me to analyze units in my army and to test how I can counter enemy threats.

So the question is, would anyone be interested in seeing the results of such "bonus matches"? ...

• no
• yes, in this thread
• yes, in a separate thread

If you're not really interested, please be honest (you won't hurt my feelings, and will save me the time and effort!)

Yes please, but in a separate thread.
To keep things need and tidy

Grrr, Imrahil

 

[Lizards of Renown]

Sporadically I aim to run a few matchups in the same style (and using the same rules) as those seen in this thread. It will revolve entirely around units I am interested in and will be mostly drawn from armies that @Mrs. NIGHTBRINGER or myself play (mainly Chaos Dwarf units for now). It is highly unlikely that I will run a unit through the entire gambit of contestants in the tourney, but rather focus on key matchups. I've already run one such battle and even added it to my spreadsheet version of the table of results. It's pretty much just a tool for me to analyze units in my army and to test how I can counter enemy threats.

So the question is, would anyone be interested in seeing the results of such "bonus matches"? ...

• no
• yes, in this thread
• yes, in a separate thread

If you're not really interested, please be honest (you won't hurt my feelings, and will save me the time and effort!)

YES!

I always enjoyed each match-up. I find them educational as you can always theory-hammer what would happen by estimates but doing your system gives you an official "what are the odds?" figure.

But yes, I think a different thread.

 

[Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl]

Sporadically I aim to run a few matchups in the same style (and using the same rules) as those seen in this thread. It will revolve entirely around units I am interested in and will be mostly drawn from armies that @Mrs. NIGHTBRINGER or myself play (mainly Chaos Dwarf units for now). It is highly unlikely that I will run a unit through the entire gambit of contestants in the tourney, but rather focus on key matchups. I've already run one such battle and even added it to my spreadsheet version of the table of results. It's pretty much just a tool for me to analyze units in my army and to test how I can counter enemy threats.

So the question is, would anyone be interested in seeing the results of such "bonus matches"? ...

• no
• yes, in this thread
• yes, in a separate thread

If you're not really interested, please be honest (you won't hurt my feelings, and will save me the time and effort!)

Yes, I’d like to see some additional matchups, but in a different thread would be best. This thread’s for the Best Close Combat units in Warhammer competition, which has now come to an end. A new one for other unit matchups would be perfect.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Yes please, but in a separate thread.
To keep things need and tidy

Grrr, Imrahil

YES!

I always enjoyed each match-up. I find them educational as you can always theory-hammer what would happen by estimates but doing your system gives you an official "what are the odds?" figure.

But yes, I think a different thread.

Yes, I’d like to see some additional matchups, but in a different thread would be best. This thread’s for the Best Close Combat units in Warhammer competition, which has now come to an end. A new one for other unit matchups would be perfect.

Thank you for the feedback... it shall be done!

 

[Killer Angel]

Late for the party. i agree with that has been said.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

A fitting tourney summary...

 

[Lizards of Renown]

A fitting tourney summary...

Well played. Excellent meme.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Looking back on the tourney, it pains me to say that I have thought of a better way to handle the break tests.

Too late now!

 

[Lizards of Renown]

Looking back on the tourney, it pains me to say that I have thought of a better way to handle the break tests.

Too late now!

How?