8th Ed. The Legendary Warriors of Chaos "Unkillable" Hortennse Lord.

Now look what you've done, you've tempted me to join in with a Warriors of Chaos discussion

A Dwarf Lord cannot achieve the supreme Ward Save cheese that the Hortennse can, but he has ways in which he can make up for that.

The top 'unkillable' Lord build always incorporates Shieldbearers first of all, for an armour save bonus and two additional wounds, taking the Dwarf Lord up to 5 base wounds, and two Runes of Iron bump this up to 6, as well as increasing his Toughness to the same value. A Rune of Fortitude can take this Toughness boost up by a further 1 to T7, and a Talisman with 3 Runes of Warding round out the Runic combos to give him a 4+ Ward Save. Most Dwarf players give him a Great Weapon to boost his Strength to 6, though against a Hortennse who can make Ward Saves with ease, his main goal is to just survive in combat with the Chaos Lord for the entire game, so I would personally give him a Shield to take his Armour Save to 1+ and give him a 6+ Parry Save. All in all, the Hortennse would hit him on 3s, but would be forced to wound him on 4s, with the Lord having a respectable 5+ Armour Save, 4+ Ward and 6+ parry (or 3+ Ward if you prefer to add Parry Saves to existing Wards) after modifiers, along with double the number of Wounds that the Hortennse has.

You're right, there are definitely mobility issues that means my Dwarf Lord would never be able to catch up with your Hortennse in a million years, but I do have one trump card on my side (from your army book no less) - Eye of the Gods! If your Hortennse did decide to charge my Lord's unit for whatever reason, you'd have to declare a challenge, and I could accept with my Lord to tie the Hortennse up for the rest of the game. This means my Dwarf Lord effectively acts as a Hortennse Repellent for his unit, deterring the Hortennse from being able to charge and grind up the unit, or else be forced to sit through the rest of the game swatting at the Dwarf Lord when he could instead be zooming about the battlefield on his Disc making an absolute nuisance of himself.

 

I just re-read the whole thread. The guy definitely picked the wrong forum to start shit with. In my opinion he came off as the typical "cry bully". He starts antagonizing everyone but then cries when he gets a bloody nose.

In any event, it has to be the greatest backfire in warhammer forum history. They literally used his name to label the very thing he so adamantly fought against. Not only that, but nearly 10 years later, the Everchosen forum is pretty much dead, the game is discontinued but somehow the name lives on in infamy.

We Chaos boyz don't mess around. Do not seek glory here, for you shall only find death.

 

...A properly built Wood Elf army, playing to the army's strengths, doesn't need to beat Hortensse. It beats the REST of the army and ignores him.

 

Well yeah, he basically acted like a drama llama and turned himself into a meme.

 

There is no escape from Chaos, it marks us all!

...although in this case you're working to beat Chaos, so your reputation shall remain unblemished!

That should work nicely. That is a pretty hefty defense, not much of anything will get through all of that. I'm trying to think of a character who could kill that guy 1 v 1. Hellebron could definitely get close, but mathematically won't be able to strip him of all six of his wounds... and she has no defense against the counterattack. Kholek maybe?

How many points does the setup cost? I'm guessing that it is less than Hortennse.

The funny thing is that you don't actually need the Eye of the Gods special rule. You could do the very same thing to a Daemon Prince even though he does not have the Eye of the Gods rule.

"A character cannot refuse a challenge if his model cannot be placed so that he is not in base contact with an enemy model - he can't evade his opponent and so must fight for his life. This most commonly happens if a lone character is the subject of a challenge, or if his unit is small and engaged on all fronts, so that every model in the unit is in base contact with an enemy." [BRB, page 102]

As a result, if a DP were to engage you in close combat, you could simply challenge him and he'd have to accept. No Eye of the Gods rule required.

 

But in a bad way. He hated the build. It's like if they renamed Jar Jar Binks or AoS after me.

 

He certainly shouldn't have started insulting people right from the offset, that's one way to lose 90% of your potential supporters before the argument even begins. I appreciate his sentiments toward trying to stop the arms-race of unkillable characters, but he certainly should have behaved more rationally and attacked only other people's arguments, not the people themselves, as per the rules of civilised debate. He crossed a line from which he made it more and more difficult to return until the whole thing became a chaotic mess. There was just no need for that.

And answering this:

Not only am I too young to be Hortennse, but also I have hardly attempted to insult anyone in any debate I've had on here (only once or twice, of which I am ashamed of to this day and for which I apologised at the time), and I have no desire to do so. One thing about our many debates here is that it has actually helped me practice to become a better debater - I like to think I have learned to become more controlled in times of argument and to channel any emotion into additional energy that can be used to search for counterarguments, rather than releasing it at random as per Hortennse to flame people unnecessarily.

Also, I doubt Hortennse would have thought up an forum name as grandiose as mine

But then I've started to delve into playing Beastmen and Chaos Space Marines, so I am as guilty as the rest

My particular build with shield clocks in at 313 points, 70 points less than your regular Hortennse build.

Immortality based upon infamy, rather than respect. The worst kind.

Hmm, I wonder if Jar Jar's Sith alias is Darth Night Night?

 

Your personality is nothing like that of Hortennse. I was only joking and the joke was entirely predicated on the fact that you both hate the Hortennse unkillable build (and WoC more generally).

I guess now you can add another one to your tally.

Not to worry... those are lesser Chaos. They don't really count.

 

In your own words:

I know of your dislike of Beastmen, but I'm surprised you'd rate Chaos Space Marines as lesser Chaos, given they are the Warriors of Chaos of 40K (in lore at least, if not in terms of rules power)

 

But they're still Space Marines and I am sick to death of Space Marines. Plus, I no longer have any interest in 40k.

 

@Lizards of Renown @Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl @Killer Angel : thoughts on my query? ...


versus

 

Personally I would fear the Chaos Lord/Sorcerer combo more, because they are multiple threats that are doing different things around the battlefield, meaning my forces would be divided between trying to tie up the Hortennse and defend against the Sorcerer Lord's magic, and even if I can kill one, I've still got to try and deal with the other one somehow, not to mention all the brutal WoC melee units that will be racing to get into melee alongside them.

The Daemon Prince on the other hand is potentially a lot scarier if he can reach combat, but you're putting all your eggs into one basket - one unfavourable Miscast roll and that's all 565 points down the drain straightaway. Additionally while he's got good defensive capabilities he only has a 5+ Ward, so large amounts of armour piercing missile fire will gradually whittle him down and hopefully kill him before he can reach melee. In particular even though he can withstand the first cannonball on a 2+, a gamey gunline Dwarf or Empire army will likely be able to pack more than one Cannon, plus one or more Organ Guns/Hellblasters and more besides. If all of those turn on him then weight of fire has a good chance of being able to neutralise him. Lore of Metal casters will have a field day in being able to use his armour against him, and any spells that reduce Movement will be able to slow him down and make it easier for missile units to finish the job. Such tactics are far less effective against the Hortennse, even though his combat output is far less, and the Sorcerer will likely be hiding in a unit to start with and will be protected by Look Out Sir!.

 

Good points!

Cannons are definitely the bane of his existence. Against an army like the Dwarfs he is far less formidable as compared to the threat he poses to someone like the Beastmen. The Charmed shield helps, but as you say, can only do so much. 2++ against flaming attacks neutralizes a few cannons, but will do nothing against others. Other than that, the player must rely on advantageous LOS blocking terrain (if available) or perhaps a Troll shield to ensure he gets into combat.

Damn cannons

The Lore of Metal is of very little threat to him. That's why I give him the Dragonbane Gem for that sweet sweet 2+ ward save!

 

I think with my Beasty Boys the best available counters to him would be:

• Great Weapon Minotaurs (Strength 7 attacks would reduce his armour save to a more manageable 5+, he wouldn't be able to heal himself of any wounds in the first round of combat if he didn't lost any prior to the fight and Monstrous Infantry can't be Thunderstomped), but that Leadership test is irritating, I'd have to make sure my unit remains within 12" of a Beastlord General to give them Ld 9 to give them the best chance of passing that
• Any unit that I could give Okkam's Mindrazor to (A Ghorgon benefitting the spell would be particularly fun with Strength and Leadership 10, or Additional Hand Weapon Minotaurs being able to bring the same Strength as their Great Weapon buddies along with extra attacks), but this is reliant upon being able to generate and cast the spell in the first place
• The Caress of Laniph and The Fate of Bjuna from Lore of Death (both ignore armour saves and providing I roll high enough I could still inflict enough wounds to bypass his Ward and kill him, especially with Bjuna wounding on 2s) but again dependent on generating and casting those spells
• The Withering, The Enfeebling Foe and Soulblight would all help in reducing his Strength and Toughness to reduce his combat potential and make him easier to wound, though these won't do anything to reduce his formidable armour save, so I still need a monster and/or Minotaurs to put out enough attacks with armour save penalties to knock enough wounds off him to kill him before he can heal

In short, while you are right in that Beastmen have far less counters available, I'm not hugely worried about them against him. On the other hand, I think the army that would specifically have the worst time against the Daemon Prince is another of my armies, Orcs and Goblins. They can't put out many high-Strength attacks, lack reliable Monsters, Spells and Monstrous Infantry with high Strength and specialise in large hordes of chaff that the Daemon Prince can just wade through. Probably the only thing I can think of that would be in any real way effective is Mangler Squigs, and I'd still need to roll well with the Scatter Dice and the Random Movement dice for them to be able to reach him. The Greenskins would be in real trouble against such a build.

Didn't notice Lore of Metal spells produced Flaming Attacks until I just checked my rulebook again. That's a fair point.

 

I'm coming buddy, I'm coming!

I'm finishing my essay on the Hortennse then I'll go back through this.

 

I think so.

So I did a little looking through army books to see if there was a viable counter for the Hortennse Lord or a nullification.

I did this against the following build, which I consider the most dangerous.Chaos Lord or Exalted Hero3+ ward save (Talisman of Preservation + Mark of Tzeentch)ability to re-roll ward saves of '1' (Third Eye of Tzeentch)ability to self heal (Soul Feeder)1+ armour save (a combination of Chaos armour, magic items, mount and/or Scaled Skin)Disc or Daemonic Mount (meaning the flying mount cannot be specifically killed)Nightbringer subsequently said also GW
By army:

Beastmen: If Lord Agrogax has an idea on this, I'd love to know as I don't see they have anything that would worry the Hortennse. Tarpit for sure with a large Ungor unit, but again there is the problem of movement with the Hortennnse on a Disc or Daemonic Mount that can fly and easily avoid tarpits.

Brettonia: Nothing I can see (adjusted from before as I had some data still rocking around in my noggin from a Warhammer Projects book).

Daemons of Chaos: Cannons are the only thing I see that would realistically cause a problem and even then the 3++ rerolls 1's pretty much neuters this.

Possibly the Slaanesh spell with the random movement and ASL abilities as a delaying tactic.

Dark Elves: Malekeith is the best one here. As he has the ability to destroy one of the Hortennse's magic items on any hit that he scores (any hit, roll 4+ and you can destroy one of the magic items). He's a pretty fearsome fighter himself anyways so would be a good investment for the DE player.

Dwarfs: Cannons as above with limited effectiveness.

Lord Agragax gives a good example of a Lord that could tie up the Hortennse but the primary problem is going to be getting him into the combat. Dwarfs are not noted for their speed...

Empire: Cannons as above with limited effectiveness.

Light - Banishment would be a threat to the Hortennse. Given a group of 4 total (caster plus three others) you have a Strength 7, re-roll successful ward saves attack. The obvious con's for this is the WoC player can give this a priority to dispel or use dispell scrolls. It's not going to be subtle, given that the Light Wizards need to be within 12" of each other.

Death - Purple Sun has a chance, but the Hortennse has a good initiative so would be on a 6. Unlikely.

Life - Dwellers Bellow has a chance, but again on a 6.

Metal - Given that this Lore has several attacking spells that turn the 1+ armour save against the Hortennse, this would be the best Magic to field. You also have a chance of getting Final Transmutation which, again on a 6, has a chance of nuking the Hortennse with no saves. This would definitely be the Lore of choice from the basic 8.

Magics as above, priority on the Lore of Metal. Get several casters so you can get off the signature spell several times and force the WoC player to make as many Ward Saves as possible. He only has 3 wounds so you obviously don't need that many to get through for it to work. It's possible.

Van Horstmanns Speculum: Get a cheap character on a flying mount and charge the Hortennse. Swap Strength, Toughness, Initiative and Attacks and keep him tied up for a bit at least. Even if 2 turns it could change the course of the battle, considering how much points have been invested in the Hortennse.

High Elves: As @NIGHTBRINGER already brought up, Arcane Unmaking is going to be the saving grace here. No wound necessary and even if you hit him once with this, you have a chance to neuter the build in one way or another (Crown of Command, making him susceptible to the combat resolution, Talisman of Preservation, giving him a 6+ reroll 1's Ward Save).

The only problem, is I don't see any other threat to the Hortennse that it cannot avoid. Possibly the elite unit with the 4+ ward saves as this would at least tie him up for a while since EVERY model has a 4+ Ward Save. If you stuck a wizard with their Lore Attribute in the unit, suddenly they are ALL 3+ Ward Saves and could keep him there for a while.

Lizardmen: Slann with Metal as above or with High Magic as above. High Magic would be better and you could always switch out a spell for the Searing Doom spell and have both.

As @NIGHTBRINGER points out there is the Blade of Realities, but with the Lizardmen horrific initiative and the fact that the Old Blood would have no Ward Save, this isn't great at all. He could have a 1+ save with a CO, Heavy Armour and Shield. If the Hortennse has the GW then he's ASL so you'd have a chance of killing him. If the Hortennse doesn't have the GW then most likely he's going to be able to attack once before he gets killed.

Spells would be the way to go here.

Ogre Kingdoms: Tarpit could be done by Gnoblars, but still the movement factor is a problem. If you did manage to get them into combat, given a large Gnoblar unit within 12" of the general, they can stay there for a while. The Hortennse still has only 5 attacks and even at 3's to hit you're talking 3-4 wounds per combat and with a +3 for ranks (at least initially), plus standard and musician, you could actually win the combat potentially. With a 40 strong Gnoblar unit means he'll be there for most of the game.

Still Cannons, even the option to do S10 Grapeshot is still pretty good as it's a good chance of getting at least 6 shots, 3 of which should hit on average.

Ultimately, the Ogre Kingdoms don't really have much to counter the Hortennse. You'd have to tempt him to charge the tarpit somehow.

Orcs & Goblins: The only real threat I see here is (somewhat ironically) Giants. From what I can see, the Hortennse does not come under the categroy of Big Things, so the Giant has "Pick up and..." and "Yell and Bawl". The first has 3 options where the model is simply removed as a casualty no saves mentioned, just removed (IIRC it is eaten, squashed and stashed for later). And "Yell and Bawl" means that he loses the combat. Obviously there is a chance something else happens and if the Hortennse doesn't have ASL because of the GW then most likely the Giant will be dead first. By odds, I believe that the Giant could survive long enough to have two chances to eat, squash or stash. I'd go for it. The problem being that the Hortennse could avoid the Giant as the movement is very superior. Overall, still not a good option.

Tarpit could be done by cheap goblins, but still the movement factor is a problem. Give a large Goblin unit Crown of Command, within 12" of the general and they can stay there for a while. The Hortennse still has only 5 attacks and even at 3's to hit you're talking 3-4 wounds per combat which with a 30 or 40 strong Goblin unit means he'll be there for most of the game.

Skaven: Funnily enough, Skaven have a viable option here. Fellblade is S10 and any successful ward saves must be re-rolled. You'd still be hard pressed to catch the Hortennse and you'd have to build in a good Ward Save to keep the Warlord alive long enough to use it. Skitterleap can be used to good effect to get teleported close enough to the Hortennse to get into combat.

Skaven also have the Brass Orb, 8" range, initiative test or destroyed with no saves possible. Still a high chance to survive considering he'd have to roll a 6, but it's an option.

Tomb Kings: There are no great options for TKs. But a couple of ideas.

Tempt Hortennse into combat with a Tomb Guard unit and then buff the s**t out of it (5+ ward save and Killing Blow on 5+ for the troops). Not great as the ward save still in action even if you roll a bunch of 6's to bypass the armour.

Necrosphinx is an idea, but at T8 vs the Hortennse GW S7, he isn't going to last very long. Even buffed with a 5++ the kitty doesn't get any armour save and is being hit on a 3+. The Necrosphinx has less initiative so he's going to get probably one shot at killing the Hortennse and the odds are pretty great that he'll actually make this.

They have access to the Light Council Tactic, they could also use the Casket of Souls which ignores armour but still has to deal with the ward save.

Wood Elves: High Magic or Lore of Metal again here.

The Twilight Twins are actually a viable tarpit option, since you have to kill both of them in the same turn otherwise they both return to full wounds. Could be a viable tarpit since with 5 attacks he could definitely kill one, but not the other as he would need to allocate attacks to each model to do this. He has 5 attacks, so 3 on one and 2 on the other. This is unlikely to kill BOTH of them so the combat would continue. This could work, especially if they are on the Giant Eagle that cannot otherwise be slain as they are then fast enough to catch the Hortennse and tie him up.

Vampire Counts: Unfortunately for Lord Agrogax this is where I have found the really viable Hortennse counter and potential killer. The Vampire Lord can be buffed to Level 4 wizard, take 100 points of vampiric abilities and 100 points of magic items.

I would give him a Hellsteed so he flies and can catch the Hortennse. Then I'd give him the vampiric abilities of +1 wound (now 4), -1 leadership to those in CC with him and the ability where your opponent has to test at -3 ld at the beginning of each combat phase and if failed has to reroll all successful to hit rolls. I'd give him the Obsidian Blade (ignores armour), heavy armour and shield, Talisman of Preservation.

So... each turn the Hortennse has to pass a Leadership 5 test. Most likely fail and have to re-roll all successful to hit rolls. Vampire Lord (with lore attribute) can heal himself every time he casts ANY spell and with 4 wounds he can keep himself whole. He is mounted so is 3+ armour save and 4++ ward save. He can definitely tie up the Hortennse and could probably grind him down to a kill since he only has to get 3 hits past the ward save.

It could work. Obviously if he's also charged by another unit we get problems, etc. etc. but he has the ability to chase down the Hortennse, pin him down almost indefinitely and potentially grind him down to death.

That's what I see.

Thoughts my friends? @NIGHTBRINGER ?