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AoS The losing warscrolls of the new tome?

Discussion in 'Seraphon Tactics' started by Scurvydog, Mar 11, 2020.

  1. Scurvydog
    Saurus

    Scurvydog Active Member

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    So now we know the rules, we know the warscrolls, everything. After having reviewed it quite a bit, done mathhammer, theocrafting, checked out podcasts etc. I have some thoughts on the new book and especially want to hear some opinions on specific warscrolls and their use.

    I am loving the new coalesced, and it is exactly what I wanted from Seraphon, so disclaimer will be that my opinion might be biased in that direction and my judgement will heavily weigh into that playstyle. This is also just opinions and I really want to hear other perspectives too.

    So here are the warscrolls I have a hard time seeing a place for, or am puzzled about:

    Old Blood on foot: This guy is just a worse sunblood. The sunblood giving +1 wound against an enemy unit opens up some nasty tactics at least and also deals more damage and has better synergy with some artifacts. So why use the oldblood?

    Eternity Warden: Oh boy, what is the point here, he is is an old blood on foot, but he can soak slann wounds. His command is the same as old blood but only works on saurus guard, another +1 to hit, which is so bad with many other sources of +1 hit, entirely pointless in a Koatls claw army too where you'd probably see the most saurus.

    Scar Vet on cold one: 3 attacks with 1 damage. That is all this guy can muster, lame grot wizards hit harder than this fellow. Is this scar vet someones handicapped cousin? Command ability is another lame random battle tome generator thing, with no unique mechanics or flavor, he at least had a purpose with a unique command to knights or mounts or something, but no.

    Saurus Guards: They got that 1 wound more, but what did it cost... everything... good saves are gone, good synergy with the eternity warden gone, battalions are gone. They don't even have a higher bravery stat than saurus warriors. for 90 points you can get 10 saurus, so the same number of wounds, but especially as coalesced with 2 bites each, the number of bodies will win. If there are 15 or more saurus, each saurus will be almost on par with 1 saurus guard which costs twice as much.

    Ripperdactyls: While not as bad as others on this list, they just seem rather meh compared to Terradons now, both are ultra light skirmishers, and none of them got enough hitting power to use as anything but an annoyance. The Terradon just does that job much better now I think. Shoutout to the hero version as well.

    By the skin of their teeth mention: Razordons - these guys got some more range and a stable stand and shoot for half the shots instead of 50/50 chance, fine. They suffer from the same damage output but with a huge skink handler tax. Salamanders just hit SO much harder for the same point cost, around 3 times harder! I like both units now, 240 pts for 3 + handlers is expensive, but decently durable and they hit very hard in melee, where Salamanders win again due to having a jaws attack!

    So these are some of my toughts about the internal balance of the units in the book. I guess some of them might shine a bit more in a Starborn army, such as Saurus Guards when the +1 jaw attack is not in the equation, but mostly I feel the mentioned units all have better alternatives to pick in all situations.

    I would love to be proven wrong though, or hear if anyone got other units they would add to this list.
     
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  2. Nart
    Carnasaur

    Nart Well-Known Member

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    Why not to take both him AND sunblood and use both abilities for maximum damage effect? Also, sunblood target enemy units, which has to be in shorter range compared to oldblood. He is very viable for saurus block lists.

    Completely agree here. Worst warscroll in the book. Unique command ability for guard, like +1 attack or damage, could redeem him, but as a support hero he can only buff the unit, which purpose is not combat, and as guardians of Slann, Guard is just better in every aspect. Shame.

    Once again, great CA for any saurus unit, especially saurus block. If you want the ability and cannot spend 100 more points on Carno, he is fine.

    Personaly, I see no reason to take them, unless you want to protect slann. And I don't think, slann wants that much protection. Before the battletome I didn't lose Slann, not once. There are things, of course, that can kill them, but I'd better save this points for something better. Slann is not as important as he used to be.

    They have some nice damage potential with bonus attacks from chief, which are stackable. They will have 4 base Jaw attacks from Coalesced. If you have 5 CP (which is very possible in the turn 1 or 2), you can give them 5 additional attacks for each bite. So, single ripperdactyl strikes 9 times. 9x6 = 54 attacks from 6. You can make them 3+ to hit thanks to shadowstrike or even 2+ to-hit from skink priest, if you have 1 spare CP. And you have spear 6 attacks on top of that. So, 14 attacks from a single model. 6 models are 240 pts. Impressive, but will eat CP like crazy. Still, potential is great. Also, consider mortal wounds from star venom and bonus attacks on 6+ to-hit.

    Sadly outclassed by salamanders just like salamanders were outclassed by them. Razordons are still have better range and overwatch, but we don't need them, since we can just fry stuff by salamanders. Sallies can be nerfed in GHB2020 and razordons will take their place once again.
     
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  3. Killer Angel
    Slann

    Killer Angel Prophet of the Stars Staff Member

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    the Oldblood and the ScarVet have the same command ability of OldBlood and Scarvet on Carno.
    BUT if you don't have the points to field carnosaurs (or you are just using one of them) these guys are cheaper and gives the same exact buff.
    Pick a 10 knights units, buff it with both of them and you'll have a large amount of hit, doubling the nat. 6s.
    Add a skinks starpriest and you're gonna deliver an additional tenth MWs
    These guys are solid because they are cheap and you're not forced to use the carno version to gain the command abilities

    no real redeeming quality here. Poor guy.

    if you can spare some point, 5 of them babysitting a Slann are not a bad investment.

    by themselves, they are horrible. you need wo work with them, pick a large unit, buff the hell out of it to deliver as much Attacks as you can and then exploit the MWs granted by the starpriest

    i really cannot disagree here.
     
  4. Acehilator
    Ripperdactil

    Acehilator Well-Known Member

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    Ripperdactyls: Despite the initial impression, still perfectly useable. Slower, but more staying power compared to Terradons.

    Terradons: NOT a distraction unit. Larger groups with Chief support are friggin' cruise missiles. Terradons, Rippers and Skinks are the three best units to use Starpriest's Serpent Staff on.

    Other big losers not mentioned:
    Bastiladon: Ark of Sotek is still a trap. Laser is bareley ok, so spending a CP on shooting it twice is not really that spectacular. Loss of buffs from old Thunderquake and old Astrolith really hurt.

    Engine of the Gods: Sunfire Thrower still a trap. Reworked Cosmic Engine, nerfed summoning and missing buffs relegate this thing to being a healbot for itself and other large units. Added melee prowess cannot equalize lost potential. Still has uses, but way more niche than before.
     
  5. LizardWizard
    OldBlood

    LizardWizard Grand Skink Handler Staff Member

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    I think the ScV on Coldone is acutally pretty good. If you are only looking for Saurian Savagery's exploding 6's then he is very cost effective.
     
  6. Aginor
    Slann

    Aginor Fifth Spawning Staff Member

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    So far the only real loser for me is the Eternity Warden.
    All others went kinda lateral. All are still good for something with the right synergies. We stay a synergy army, which I like.
     
  7. ILKAIN
    Skink Chief

    ILKAIN Well-Known Member

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    i def like that too, i just kinda don't like being less tool box. i preferred the cerebral nature of what we were, to the MW glass cannon we are now.
     
  8. Asamu
    Temple Guard

    Asamu Well-Known Member

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    Aside from the eternity warden and scar vet on cold one, nothing in the book seems actually bad though. Pretty much everything else compares well with similar units in other factions. Even Guard compare about evenly or favorably with similar units from other factions, like chaos warriors, and they have decent synergies and utility.

    Ripperdactyls actually do decent damage for such a mobile unit at 80 points. They're outclassed by other units in the book, but that doesn't make them bad.

    Razordons are way out-classed by salamanders, but probably aren't terrible for the points. You want them in combat now though, since their melee is better than their ranged.

    I'd be more likely to bring an Oldblood on foot than a Sunblood. They both contest the same spot in a battalion and have the same wounds/save, but the Oldblood is 20 points cheaper and has a longer range on its buff. It's possible to run the Oldblood, Scar Vet, and Sunblood all in the same list, but it's probably not worth it.
     
  9. Erta Wanderer
    OldBlood

    Erta Wanderer Well-Known Member

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    what? no they don't chaos wariors are leags better just becous they can reroll saves that and the 5+ MW save.no no contest.

    take both their buffs stack and a 2 3/2/-/1 and 2 3/3/-1/1 is nasty as heck on warriors
     
  10. Asamu
    Temple Guard

    Asamu Well-Known Member

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    Chaos warriors don't have rend or the jaw attack(s), can't teleport, and can't take 1 less damage from multi-damage attacks, and the mortal wound save doesn't always matter. Guard also give nearby Slann a 2+ redirect on all damage.
    No, chaos warriors are not notably better than guard. In isolation, you have -1 rend and a jaw attack vs a 5+ mortal wound save. In big units, Warriors may be better because they can re-roll saves, but in units of 5-10, I'd give it to guard, especially Coalesced guard. With faction buffs, it depends more on what you're up against.
     
  11. Erta Wanderer
    OldBlood

    Erta Wanderer Well-Known Member

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    yeeees but if your giving the temple guard all of their bufs you need to be fair and give the chaos wariors theirs your compairing a fully buffed unit to a bais warscroll that's not a good comparison.
    if we are being fair then CW can attack 3 times a turn and have a 3+3+6++ save with (i think) -2 to be shot sooo they are naturally much more durable with no rend but rerolling hits. im still giving it to the CW if you threw them in a room and told them to fight it out.
     
  12. Asamu
    Temple Guard

    Asamu Well-Known Member

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    That was only the allegiance buff. Chaos warriors get +1 to wound and re-roll 1s, exploding 6s to hit, and re-roll to run/charge, -1 to be hit with shooting and exploding 6s to wound, or a 6+ aftersave and battleshock immunity from allegiance abilities. None of those are notably better than the extra jaw attack, +1 to hit on the charge, and -1 damage taken or ability to teleport and bravery 10 from the Seraphon allegiance abilities.

    Chaos warriors can never fight more than twice in a turn, and S2D don't have access to nearly as many command points to buff them. Neither unit is likely to be a target for buffs unless there are CP floating for some reason, and guard are the stronger unit offensively baseline.

    There's also the point that having some guard in any list with a Slann is worth it, since it protects an important hero from being sniped. They do more to affect your and your opponent's strategy than chaos warriors do, and IMO, that alone is enough to justify bringing them in a list - which already makes them better than warriors, IMO. Compared to, ex: ardboys, Guard getting the jaw attack, better move, and higher bravery for 10 more points are the baseline differences, and both get significant buffs for little or no cost. Liberators/sequitors/blood warriors? Guard compare pretty well.

    If you're getting into full buffs, Guard can hit on a 2+ with re-rolls and exploding 6s and wound on a 2+ with 6s causing mortal wounds with their polearms, and hit/wound on 2+/3+ with 2 jaw attacks and otherwise the same buffs. Fully buffed, guard would do ~4.28 damage per model (~1.56 at no rend, ~1.94 at rend -1, and ~.78 mortal wounds) Warriors swinging twice with full re-rolls do ~3.46 as khorne or ~3.95 as Slaanesh/Nurgle. So Guard can hit harder swinging once than chaos warriors swinging twice; granted, that requires more buffs for the guard.

    Would I bring 20+ guard in a competitive list? No. Does that make them a bad unit? No, it just means other units are better for building the army around, though I'd probably bring 5-10 guard in every 2k list I build that has a Slann or Kroak.
     
  13. Erta Wanderer
    OldBlood

    Erta Wanderer Well-Known Member

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    or you could take 10 skinks and put your slann in the temple getting -2 to be hit (look out sir and garasening) and +1 to save making him far more durable. guard aren't bad because they compare badly to other units(although they do needing 2-3 support heroes 2 cp a phase a prayer and a spell and a very spasific faction sub faction to be slightly better then a different unit is not a good comparison) it's that they are the worst choise in the book almost every thing we can field is a better option then guard are
     
  14. Asamu
    Temple Guard

    Asamu Well-Known Member

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    I think you misunderstood what I was saying... Without faction bonuses or supporting units, they compare fine with all of the units I listed there, and they have a higher ceiling; baseline/without any bonuses, they're better than chaos warriors/liberators/blood warriors, and about on par with, or potentially better than, Sequitors or Ardboys. With allegiance abilities, they always get their buffs, while chaos warriors are dependent on a hero being nearby. They don't need buffs to compare reasonably well. They're a solid unit for their cost without any help when compared to units with similar profiles from other factions.

    There's no guarantee that the temple will be on your side of the field, and -2 to hit it and +1 save does nothing against a warp lightning cannon, spells, or something running up to the temple and killing it with melee attacks - all things that guard do protect it from

    Comparing them to things like warriors, which are currently looking like the best infantry in the game by the numbers (especially in Koatl's claw and disregarding potential mobility deficiencies), and saying "they're bad" means disregarding just how good Knights and Warriors are looking (and they are looking to be a pretty significant step up from comparable units from other factions).
    The fact that guard are good enough to run despite that because of their ability to take wounds for a Slann should say a lot. They'll be in a wider variety of competitive lists than most other options in the book that may be better when compared directly, so saying they're a loser in the book doesn't make sense, IMO.

    Edit: Real loser of the book is the troglodon. It wasn't great before (though at 140, it wasn't too bad as far as monsters go, but it didn't have rend or synergies, and there were better options), and it's even worse now. 1 spell and regeneration aren't worth a 120 point increase, especially considering it's weaker in melee than it was before. It'd need to be at least 60 or 80 points less to be maybe decent.
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2020
  15. Killer Angel
    Slann

    Killer Angel Prophet of the Stars Staff Member

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    ...and it's not helped by the fact that its "unique" spell is the same shared by Slanns.
     
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  16. Boshea
    Saurus

    Boshea Active Member

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    I understand that the Scarvet on CO and Oldblood on foot are supposed to be cheaper alternatives to the Carno versions to get access to the command traits, but they both feel like they a punch a little light for their cost. Bugs me less on the Oldblood since you always took him for his abilities, but his abilities are a little lacking compared to what he had before. Would have been cool if he kept his re-roll 1s to wound aura. You never took him to be a combat monster, and he just looks really bad at it now since the Sunblood is the same point cost and hits like a truck on top of having a good command trait.

    Scarvet on CO I have mixed feelings about. I like that he is a cheaper option than the Scarvet on Carno to get access to the command trait. The majority of stuff you got from Savage Charge can gotten from other sources now anyway. His pick was always an RNG fest if it would be good or not and its more consistent now at the very least. Would have been nice if he still had some kind of special exploding attack roll on his pick, instead of the same Cold Ferocity as everyone else.

    While they don't have any unique qualities anymore, they still serve a purpose of getting you cheaper access to some very good Command Traits.

    Honestly the thing that hurts the Eternity Warden the most, and by tangent Guard, is the lose of the Eternal Starhost. The change from +1 attack aura to +1 to hit is rough, since its really easy to get +hit for saurus, the battalion is what pushed Guard over to make the worthwhile over other options. The Wardens roll now can be covered by an Oldblood easily enough. Guard still at least have the purpose of taking wounds for your Slann.
     
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  17. WizardinWinter
    Skink

    WizardinWinter Member

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    ScV on cold one, yes, that actually is the lane cousin of the ScV on a carnosaur. You take him when youre on a budget, but need a scar vet, or saurus buffer.
    I personally will find the extra hundred points to do the carno upgrade, as the lone ScV+CO costs more than a min unit of knights, and I'd rather have those extra wounds+attacks.

    I often don't like taking any solo hero on foot, especially if they cant get that one rule from 40k, where they could join a unit, and share special rules. Having a single, vulnerable guy trying to solo in a war game is tactically bad. Sunblood okay, he has a unique ability, and again, you can use him for battalion reqs, but oldblood? Bro, get back on your carnosaur.

    Bastilidons are an interesting choice, @Acehilator. I thought they got a massive improvement. 220pts down from 280, 9 attacks (degrading) up from 2d6, yeah we lost the 4++, but gained a 1+ save? Remember, you can still give them buffs.
    I'm looking at a thunder lizard build with 2 basties and 2 starpriests. Give one of them mystic shield so their saving on a 2+, rerolling 1's, and ignoring rend -1; and give them the serpent staff buff in the first round of shooting. Range 24, 4/3/-1/d2, mortals on 6's. Then CA to fire again.
    On average, your 4+ armor unit is suffering 8+ wounds that phase, per bastilidon. So they can focus all their mortals on it for a few turns, or keep eating losses from that model every turn.
     
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  18. Killer Angel
    Slann

    Killer Angel Prophet of the Stars Staff Member

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    Yes, guards have some advantages (over saurus warriors):
    A - less susceptible to battleshock. you lose 7 warriors in a coalesced army? on a 2+ someone else flee. 7 wounds on guards? you lose a model only on a 6.
    B - smaller unit, so don't lose attacks and are easier targettable by auras "wholly within".
    C - they always deal 2 weapon attacks, while warriors drop to 1 when reduced in numbers

    So, on paper, they truly are an alternative option to warriors.
    It's the lack of a battalion and the fact that the warden don't give anything unique, that undermines them.
     
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  19. Carnikang
    Carnasaur

    Carnikang Well-Known Member

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    I don't have huge issue with Guard, but I would much rather the Warden buff their defenses or their ability to play interference for the Slann. Something like improving their save Characteristic, or reducing damage, perhaps even fighting first when near a Slann and Warden.
    Just something to make him useful.
     
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  20. Acehilator
    Ripperdactil

    Acehilator Well-Known Member

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    Problem is you are feeding resources into it that would better be spend elsewhere. We are absolutely spoiled for options for Serpent Staff, Saurus Warriors, Saurus Knights, Rippers, Terradons and Skinks are all way better recipients. Same goes for command points. The footprint is small, and it's not killy enough. It's durability does not really help, because any opponent with half a clue will just leave it alone.

    Bastiladon is still viable for casual play, but I suspect it will already run of of steam if you are playing in a harder local meta.
     
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