You should buy new dice. Since you don't believe in magic/luck (neither do I), it can't be *you* that is failing to roll average. It has to be something about the environment. If your dice are landing with the 5 and 6 sides face down more often than they land with the 1 and 2 sides face down then you have weighted dice (just not weighted advantageously!) Also, if you're rolling below average 35% more often, then you should be running a double-flee focused strategy because you should be able to rally skinks far more often than normal. Also, you should have no fear of Dwellers Below (and less of a fear of Purple Sun!) The funny thing about rolling the Cascade miscast is that it kind of *is* the average roll. First you have to roll two 6's (average of 12 on two dice) then to balance that out you *should* roll two 1's to get your average to 7 for two dice. So, Rolling Cascade often is more proof of average rolling than not seeing that miscast happen. And if you are a below average roller, then it seems like you should be seeing less miscasts than the average bear (lizard?). You'll probably see more success from Wandering Deliberations since you can throw less dice at more spells. When it comes to the actual magic phase, though, I think you are expecting too much out of it. Yes, you have to roll for you spells, and roll for winds, and your opponent can dispel your spells, and he probably has a scroll. You've got to play the long game in the magic phase. You're not going to cast the spell you want every phase. You've got to lure out that scroll early. If you can get your opponent to use his scroll in turn 1/2 then that is a *successful spell*. You've just cast the "destroy dispel scroll" spell! After you get rid of the Dispel Scroll, the Magic Phase is a lot like winning Tic Tac Toe. You've got to work to get it setup so that your opponent's only decision is which spell he lets you cast. And ideally the spell you really want to cast will look benign enough that he'll just let it though because he's saving his dice to stop the more obvious spell. Maybe changing your expectations of the Magic Phase will help it be more successful for you? Also, use different dice! (or if it's actually your hand rolling dice that makes them roll poorly... change your dice rolling maneuver? Maybe tell the dice that your baby needs a new pair of shoes?)
=> I have. Many times. I even spent the insane money on a dozen Casino dice at one point. No help. => It's not that I am consistently below a number, it's that I am 35% off of the expected result. It's hard to explain properly, and it's been many, many years since we ran the numbers. I just took away from it that I can expect failure, however it is defined by a given circumstance, to occur 35% more often for me than it ought to. => I know what you mean in the grand scheme of "it balances out in the end" but unfortunately, the two rolls are completely independent. It's like how if you play a lottery, you are just as likely to win if you pick the seven numbers "1,2,3,4,5,6,7" as you are if you pick "2,5,19,21,27,31,40." People are conditioned to see patterns that don't actually exist or to 'freak out' over what they see as strange sequences ("What? No way did the numbers just come up 1,2,3,4,5,6,7. That's got to be a fix!" No, not really.). It explains a lot of things really, but that's a topic for another time. => I've done exactly that many times in the past.
Let's set up a thread. I will still post my games here, probably just a really short version with a link to the other thread, but let's make it its own thing. Maybe we can keep it generic enough that others who want to do something similar can add it it. It can be sort of "Get Out of Your Comfort Zone Challenge Thread" sort of thing.
Reading up on this thread. The issue is not so much luck (which may or may not exist) but probability. There is always the probability that when rolling two or more dice double six will be rolled. The same is true of double ones or any other double. The more games that are played the more probability will even out although there will still be statistical outliers which will be outside the norm. Play more games with the Slann on HM and see how it goes.
I am very much up for this thing! It is a great pusher to get me painting AND playing, 2 things i really like ^^
Read through all of this today - what a marathon! Interesting to see you made the same transition from blowpipes to javs as I did. Though I still think blowpipes were better in the old book.... nothing to do with the fact I had 0 jav models then! I'm also running 8 krox atm, and loving them. Started with 2x3, then 1x6, and again realised the same as you, 8+ seems the way to go, due to ASL. S5 stomps are really nice too. Just wish someone would ever fail a fear test. Slann wise, I've also struggled in this book. Currently running Kroak, love to see you try him too! Salamanders, I couldn't even get the 7th ed versions to work... Side note, all of the tournaments I've played this year in the UK, PF was ruled to play from supporting attacks, and kroak/burning alignment was 360, and in CC. Both pretty awesome for lizards to be fair. Certainly the krox really benefit from the PF ruling, though I think I would still take them without the rear rank having PF - I just find 1+/2+ such a struggle for lizards!
Game 29 - 2400 vs. Unknown Opponent (yet) EDITED WITH POST-GAME UPDATE Date: July 11, 2014 Opponent: Ogres Point Value: 2400 Scenario: Dawn Attack SPECIAL REPORT - Phatmotha-phucka EDITION #1 Overview As readers may or may not know, Phat and I have decided to play some games outside of our personal comfort zones. I'm doing three games with a High Slann and three with a Wandering Slann. Phat is leaving his standard frog build behind to try some of the things I like. It's fun! This is my first game with a Wandering Slann. I built my list not knowing the opponent or the scenario, and wanted to try to emphasize the ability to cast several signature spells, preferably though the Troglodon. The Trog also boosts Saurus and Krox, so this is a game where the Troglogon should be at his optimal usage. The Stegadon with the Engine will make casting those signature spells even easier (or one per turn, anyway) while also giving my opponent another monster consider other than just the Trog. Lastly, the Bastiladon will strengthen the plan of lots of little blasts while also giving a third monster. Should be fun! Report will follow later tonight (very late) or tomorrow. My list: 1 Slann - Wandering Deliberations 1 Oldblood on Coldone - Glittering Scales, Dawnstone, Sword of Strife 1 Scar-vet BSB - Armor of Destiny, Great Weapon 10 Skink Skirmishers with Javelins & Shields 10 Skink Skirmishers with Javelins & Shields 16 Skink Skirmishers with Javelins & Shields 29 Saurus - Full Command 8 Krox 1 Bastiladon - Solar Engine 1 Ancient Stegadon with Engine of the Gods 1 Troglodon with Rod His army: It turned out my opponent was an ogre player. He was practicing for our local club challenge, so he brought a pretty solid list. Good! Who wants to play an opponent who is not trying his or her best? I took a photo at the start so I could recall what he had. I think it was: Slaughtermaster with Gut Magic (+1S, +1T, Stubborn, Regen) and Hellheart BSB with stuff Firebelly 3 sabretusks 3 mournfang - full command 3 leadbelchers 3 leadbelchers 4 Maneaters - scout, immune to psychology, one great weapon, three additional hand weapons 6 Ironguts FC 7 Ironguts FC 1 ChariotGunoftheGods Summary of Events We rolled Dawn Attack, and the only unit that really was impacted by it was my Saurus block (with BSB and Oldblood). The got stranded, keeping the BSB uncomfortably far away, but it ended up being ok. From left to right, the table had a big building (center), woods (my half), 2 hills (his half), building (my half), scree slope (his), woods (center), sorcerous portal (my). Deployment, from left to right from my view: Him - Tusk, Tusk, Fangs behind Tusk #2, Maneaters on the midline, Tusk, Lead, Lead, General+BSB+6Guts, Firebelly+Guts, ChariotGunoftheGods behind that. Me - Saurus Block+BSB+Cowboy, Steg, Trog, Krox, Slann+larger Skink unit, Bastiladon, skinks #1, skinks #2 He failed to steal the first turn, so off we went! Turn 1 I did not take any more pictures, so most of this will be from my (faulty) memory. Sorry. I recall that in the fist few turns it looked rather grim. I had advanced my Saurus, Krox, and small skink units, preparing to create favorable attack scenarios, but then magic phase came and the sorcerous portal killed 4 skinks, sending the rest of the unit up table in panic. I set the Engine for Fire, planning to blow up some Maneaters with a level 2 fireball. It was dispelled. The Burning Alignment failed to cast. The Laser went off to blast some Leadbelchers, but I rolled a 1 and got 2 S3 hits, which failed to wound. Yay, magic. In his turn, his Leadbelchers killed 3 Krox and his ChariotGunofthe Gods shot the Krox in the flank, but the Engine's ward save saved two of them, he failed to wound one of them, and the last one took a single wound. Turn 2 Now the fuzzy really kicks in. Tell you what, for the rest of the report, I'll just ignore my skink flank. They fled, they rallied, they shot things. They were meaningles. What matters is that I charged the Oldblood out of his unit at the Mournfang, but fell short. Also, Slann got one more spell off, and I cheated at that. I cast Regrowth on the Krox, and neither of us realized that it could not go outside of the caster's unit. That was my only spell that turn, because I miscast it on 2 dice and drained my pool. Oh, the Trog got a shot off that hit! It rolled a 2 to wound, doing nothing. In his turn he killed more stuff with shooting, but did misfire the ChariotGunoftheGods, costing him his next shot as well. I lost the Trog. The Command Unit killed the Bastiladon with contemptuous ease. Then the fun started. The Mournfang hit the Oldblood in the front, and a Tusk hit him in the side. I was down charge+flank+banner to start. My 7 Attacks (+2 from the ColdOne) managed to do a wound, and the Oldblood, with his 1+ re-rollable, took none. I lost the combat by 2, but passed the break check. Turn 3 Actually, you know what, the rest of the game can really be summed up like this- - The Oldblood never took a wound and always did at least one back. Predatory Fighter got me at least 1 more Attack every round, usually 2. By the end of the game, as in turn 6, I had killed all the Mournfangs and the Tusk, and had not taken a single wound. Best "unit" in my army, by far. - My Slann never got more than one spell off per turn, and actually miscast on two dice two more times (so, 3 of six phases). I did get a Wildform on one of those... - ...and that Wildform was amazing. The Saurus obliterated the Maneaters. The Saurus then faced off against the Firebelly's unit and killed them all as well. - He focused a lot on the Krox, engaging them with both Leadbelcher units and the Firebelly unit. I ended up killing the Leadbelchers with a spell or two and some combat, but the Krox did die in the end, which opened up the combat between the Firebelly's unit and the Saurus. - The Slann had to abandon his unit in turn 5, and send the unit to delay the approaching Command Unit. That part went well, but the ChariotGunoftheGods - you know, the move and shoot cannon - drew a bead on the Slann and killed him. Yay, cannons. In the end, all that was on the table was the Oldblood, the Saurus unit, and his Command Unit. Result: Minor win to the Ogres, something like 1600 to 1400. Post-game Thoughts and Unit Evaluations Well, there was one lesson here that I have been learning ever since 8th edition came out, and I really would love to be able to beat this into the heads of other gamers - Don't Give Up! Yes, I lost, but it was tight! After two turn, we both thought it was a fait accompli that the Ogres would cruise to a win in three or four turns. I remember a moment where I was walking up the stairs from the basement to the bathroom and thinking to myself "Ha, I always tell myself to not quit, but this one is sooooo over...." Turns out, not so much. Stick with it, folks! I'll get into it a bit more in the unit evaluations, but I have to say that I am really, really...really not impressed with the Slann at this point. It felt pretty good to have access to all those Sig Spells, but in the end, the spells that helped me the most were Wildform and Iceshard (not detailed above, but there was a round where I got it off and it kept a combat going in my favor). Gosh, don't you just know it, those are spells I can get on little skinks as well! I had to keep my Slann locked into a skink unit, hidden away behind a building since cannons and Leadbelchers would eat him up otherwise. This meant I devoted points, and a unit that could be doing something else, to protecting a model that added almost nothing to my game. I'll keep going with the experiment, but hot damn! this one was a failure of the largest order. What worked in my army? Saurus. Krox. Oldblood. What failed me? Over-investment in magic. Anyway, let's get into the units - Skink Skirmishers with Javelins and Shields I was actually surprised by how ineffective they were in this game. It didn't help that the largest unit of them got saddled with babysitting duty or that the terrain blasted on unit into meaninglessness. Still, against ogres, they just are not going to do much. Saurus Warriors My guys! Wow, did they ever shine. With Sig Spells from Beasts and Heavens, they lasted longer than I would have thought. Predatory Fighter was consistently giving them help, even with me playing it "only" by the rules that are present instead of the ones I "wish" were there. If GW ever does rule that PF works on all ranks (and they errata the Trog Roar to be a continual benefit), then I will go full-on Saurus hordes and never look back. Bastiladon Today he was crap. I had wanted him to be a monster that could distract my opponent from killing the Trog, but in the end he was a speed bump. This was another case of where playing by the rules hurt me. I'd love to get the Tail Attack benefits all the time, but that's not the rules, so my guy was ineffective against ogres. Ancient Stegadon The ward save he gave kept several models alive. His spell boost was minor and never resulted in a success that woudl have otherwise been a failure. My opponent had several moments during the game where he was shocked by just how bad most Lizardmen things are. He expected the monsters to kick butt. He expected more Special Rules to have meaning and impact. In the case of the Stegadon, he wondered why I did not have Sharpened Horns. I told him that I rarely get the charge off with the Stegadon, and even when I do, it's rarely against an enemy unit type where it would matter. Yes, if I knew I was going to take on Ogres, I might take 3+ Stegs with Horns and see where it ended up, but in an all-comers list, it's just wasted points - and that was the them of the night - Wasted Points. I'll add another thought on that in a moment. Kroxigor One thing I did not make clear in the report was just how annoying Sabretusks are. They are the final straw in the list of things that makes Ogres so good. They shoot. They are fast. They ignore Fear and Stomps. They have fun magic. They fight well. AND they have cheap-as-hell, semi-durable, distraction units that let everything else work just fine. He delayed my Krox at least a turn (more like two) by putting a Tusk in front of them at an angle that would leave the Krox exposed should they charge. Good on him. Good tactics. It's just that Ogres don't need this, and with a very cheap model he was able to eliminate a 400 point unit from participation in game for too long. Once the Krox got into things, it was better, but man. I will say, though, that this game showed me again that going with fewer than 8 Krox is silly. I was able to weather the storm early one and still have a unit that made meaningful contributions to the outcome. Saurus BSB He took a challenge. He carried a banner. That's about it. Oldblood on Cold One Man of the match. Mournfangs scare the hell out of me. As a Tomb Kings player, when I see them, I know my game is over. Here, with Lizardmen, I have a tool to handle them. I mean, seriously, my lone Oldblood took the charge and emerged unscathed. He's awesome. Sad face, though, is what this means to army lists. See more "Wasted Points" commentary below. Troglodon Too bad he's so easy to kiil. Too bad his buff is so limited. Too bad he has a rule that is useless unless you bring a frog. He's really bad, but it would be soooooo easy to make him useful. Today he was Wasted Points. Slann I loved the initial feeling of having all those Sig Spells. Too bad this 330 point model (plus his 100+ point body guard unit) did so very little in the game. One spell per turn. Miscasts half the time. I had thought about building him with Soul of Stone, but I figured that with me using 2-3 dice per casting, I would not need it. Ha! The thing is, though, on the miscasts, a shift of 1 point would never have mattered. Look at the chart. A roll of 3, 5, 7 (most common), and maybe others, you don't want to change or won't benefit from changing. There are actually very few results where a 1 pip shift matters at all. I had also considered using the Channeling Staff+Extra Channeling Dice combo, but it would not have mattered. I tracked my channeling rolls. I rolled a 5 once (so the staff would have mattered once). Also, I miscast enough times that having the extra dice would not have helped at all. This guy is a sitting duck. A target. A liability. He's Wasted Points. I can get his benefit (mostly) from a skink or two and not give up the 100 points for losing my General when I take him. I actually would have won this game if it were not for this guy. He cost me 430 points in a game I lost by 200. He actually makes the army worse! ---- And that's even when I've tried to build a list around a concept that makes him useful. Extra Note Wasted Points. It's starting to sink in just exactly why the best Lizardmen lists from this book are almost the same as the ones from the old book. All the new stuff is Wasted Points. You can try to go a little nuts with Rippers, the Troglodon, Bastiladons, and so one, but in the end, the best lists are skink clouds and cowboys. These two things do so many things better than the other, newer, things. There's just no need to branch out and waste points on the new stuff. Add in the fact that many of the perks really do end up being wasted (see Soul of Stone or Trog ability comments above), and it's no wonder that lots of people are bored by the new book. It really is a wasted opportunity. Lots of really cool ideas that are just a tiny bit off track (much like the Tomb Kings book). Give this book to some actual gamers for one month before it was released, and I'm sure we would have had a top notch (not to say 'overpowered') book. As it stands, this is just one boring as hell army because the stuff you should take is all the same old stuff you have played with for 20 years. Thanks for reading!
the old ones know you hate the slann so they punish you for mocking them!!! in all seriousness though, miscasting 3 times on 2 dice is hilarious. and it actually sounds like your slann was very effective. He kept his points and even with 3 miscasts (looool) you got off crucial spells that helped your saurus win combat. it's irrelevant if they were the same spells, because you don't know if a skink priest (level 1 or 2) could have gotten them off. just one question tho, did you have your skinks in bsb/general range? because honestly them fleeing is what lost you the game. skinks are great against ogres. low armor, high toughness/wound models is prime skink pew pew target.
Game 30 - 2400 vs. Dogs of War => Yeah, I'm laughing myself to sleep...or am I crying? Hard to tell sometimes. It continued in my next game as well, which I will now post in extreme brevity because it was not a game against a real army. Here goes: Date: July 11, 2014 Opponent: Dogs of War Point Value: 2400 Scenario: Blood & Glory SPECIAL REPORT - Phatmotha-phucka EDITION #1.1 (not counting it as game #2) Overview This was my second game with a Wandering Slann, but since it was not against an actual GW army, I will not count it against my three game experiment. I am only posting anything about it at all because I want this thread to be complete. My list was the same as last game: 1 Slann - Wandering Deliberations 1 Oldblood on Coldone - Glittering Scales, Dawnstone, Sword of Strife 1 Scar-vet BSB - Armor of Destiny, Great Weapon 10 Skink Skirmishers with Javelins & Shields 10 Skink Skirmishers with Javelins & Shields 16 Skink Skirmishers with Javelins & Shields 29 Saurus - Full Command 8 Krox 1 Bastiladon - Solar Engine 1 Ancient Stegadon with Engine of the Gods 1 Troglodon with Rod His army: Characters that had tons of special rules that bent the game in various ways, blocks of 'human' infantry with better stats that Saurus Warriors, cannons, volley guns, bolt throwers, cavalary, maneater ogres...you know, pretty much the best of everything. Summary of Events A cannon killed my OldBlood in turn 1. A cannon killed a monster next turn. Scouting Maneaters killed more monsters and units. My Slann had a few more 2-dice miscasts. Yawn. Result: He won. Post-game Thoughts and Unit Evaluations I got nuthin', sorry.
Oldbloods OP. I just entered a list into a Tournament for next week with two of them: one on foot, one mounted. Yeah, to be honest, I'm starting to have second thoughts about Wandering Deliberations myself. The key thing about it is that its a toolbox: whoever you are fighting, you can always ensure that you have some spells to cast that will be relevant. They might not be the best spells for any given situation, but its better to have something that might help rather than nothing at all. But in general, the best spells are Iceshard, Wildform and Miasma, because they help Lizardmen in a key area where they are weak: combat. But two of those you can get on Skink Priests, and of them, only one (Miasma) actually helps Saurus where it is needed by making them hit better. But even then, it has limited application on things that are WS5 or above - ie all those WoC and Elf combat units running about these days - because the average roll still takes them down to only WS3. In short, one of these 3 spells is going to be critical to any combat, and a canny opponent will know which one to stop and which to let through. Most of the time this will be Miasma, because whilst S5 T5 Saurus sound great on paper, T5 doesn't help them win combats and S5 doesn't matter when you miss 50% (or more) of your attacks). This is also the same problem I have with High Magic, where you only want Hand of Glory in combat and your opponent will throw everything at stopping it (yes, you can swap out spells to combo it with nice things). Compare this to, say, Lore of Light. Here you've got Speed of Light and Timewarp. Either one of these bad boys is a huge advantage to Saurus, and your opponent will be pushed to stop both. Of course, without Loremaster you lose the guaranteed spell generation, but overall I'm starting to think that it still has a better pay off.
WD gives you death snipe, searing doom, and fireball. All of those are huge for lizardmen. Death snipe is self explanatory, searing doom cause armor, and fireball for those big blocks of annoying elves.
But whilst nice, none of those are what I would call necessary. Fireballs are great, but magic missiles are available in every spell lore (plus template or all models spells). We also have Salamanders to deal with big Elf blocks if need be. Spirit Leech is good, no doubt about it, but I don't feel like enemy characters are a huge problem for Lizardmen - the ones that are tend to be combat characters, which can either be dealt with by the humble Scar-Vet, or are WoC with high enough leadership that Spirit Leech can't be taken for granted. And whilst Searing Doom is great for when you do face armour (going back to my toolbox comment), its irrelevant otherwise - again, Saurus characters are good against armour anyway. I guess I look at magic to compensate for a weakness, and to me that is combat ability.
Guess it comes down to preference. I don't find myself in combat very often, and if I do it usually means i'm going to lose and no amount of magic is going to change that. I also don't think think you're giving spirit leech and searing doom enough credit. Yeah, saurus characters can deal with armor, but this way they don't have to.
I give my scar vets GWs. What armour are we talking about again? -4 armoursave brings 1+ to 5+, wyssans reduces that to 6+. In a TG bunker with razor banner = no armour. I regularly face dwarfs, and aside from wyssans, I've never needed magic to deal with armour. Hell, I'd rather nuke the slayers/gw guys than the heavily armoured guys. heavy armour doesn't hurt, gws do.