8th Ed. The Path to Awesome - Tracking Every Game Ever

[RipperDerek]

You asked for an explanation as to why those players chose WD over other lores, and I provided it. It doesn't sound like you disagreed with my explanation, either. So I'm not entirely sure what we're agreeing to disagree on, at this point.

 

[Putzfrau]

You said WD and Life are safer but said nothing as to why that makes them worse than high. If anything its a reason as to why the are more optimal which is the whole purpose of the conversation. I mean having good miscast protection isnt a positive attribute of the given lore? That combined with the overall utility of the spells is why it is chosen. Having a slann outside of a TG block doesn't suddenly make high magic more optimal because, as I stated, it's not even in the top 5.

You said there was "a lot wrong" with competitive players and the lists they build while providing no evidence as to why you are correct and know better than established experienced players with actual results.

You said temple guard fight better without the slann, and a slann is better outside of Temple guard without saying why temple guard fight better (two extra attacks isn't worth losing stubborn and itp) or accounting for the fact that some lists don't take temple guard and STILL don't use high magic.

It seems a little silly to make sweeping judgemental statements about all tournament players while providing little actual tangible evidence as to why you feel like you know better.

We're agreeing to disagree because you clearly feel WD is garbage and I have nothing else to say on the matter. I do not think you are right, and short of you going "look at all this tangible proof I have" you will not convince me.

I never once stated WD is literally the only lore anyone should ever take on a slann. I merely implied that your assumption of it being "useless" is wrong and there is a mountain of evidence supporting that assertion.

 

[RipperDerek]

You said WD and Life are safer but said nothing as to why that makes them worse than high. If anything its a reason as to why the are more optimal which is the whole purpose of the conversation. I mean having good miscast protection isnt a positive attribute of the given lore? That combined with the overall utility of the spells is why it is chosen. Having a slann outside of a TG block doesn't suddenly make high magic more optimal because, as I stated, it's not even in the top 5.

I explained why High was a better choice (outside of miscast protection) in my two previous posts. I then explicitly addressed your follow-up concern with logical reasons. I didn't feel the need to repeat arguments I'd already made and had gone unchallenged.

You said there was "a lot wrong" with competitive players and the lists they build while providing no evidence as to why you are correct and know better than established experienced players with actual results.

You said temple guard fight better without the slann, and a slann is better outside of Temple guard without saying why temple guard fight better (two extra attacks isn't worth losing stubborn and itp) or accounting for the fact that some lists don't take temple guard and STILL don't use high magic.

Not all lists are optimal, and high magic isn't optimal in all lists. It's just generally better to be loremaster of high magic than to have WD when you're not worried about blowing yourself up, for reasons I've already explained. And you generally shouldn't be worried about blowing yourself up, because it's a problem that can be solved during the list building phase.

I've also already explained the other two points you said I hadn't explained. The Slann is a better caster outside the block because it can throw dice at big spells without worry of blowing up the TG. The TG are better fighters not just because the unit gets more attacks, but also because it doesn't have to worry about protecting the Slann (and by extension, can be used a lot more aggressively). In addition to those points, I'll also add that the unit is less point-bloated compared to its combat potential this way, and no longer has to worry about challenges going at the Slann.

When I refer to the unit being point bloated, what I mean is: A 600 point unit of [TG+Slann] will lose in combat to almost any other 600 point unit someone might bring, and quite a few 400 point units. But a 600 point unit of just TG will win combat against almost anything, especially if it has the right banner. By adding a Slann to a typical unit of TG, you are doubling the units' point cost, while also reducing it's combat potential.

It seems a little silly to make sweeping judgemental statements about all tournament players while providing little actual tangible evidence as to why you feel like you know better.

We're agreeing to disagree because you clearly feel WD is garbage and I have nothing else to say on the matter. I do not think you are right, and short of you going "look at all this tangible proof I have" you will not convince me.

I never once stated WD is literally the only lore anyone should ever take on a slann. I merely implied that your assumption of it being "useless" is wrong and there is a mountain of evidence supporting that assertion.

I'm not making judgmental statements about all tournament players, I'm stating that A) they're not infallible, B) providing sound reasoning as to why they made the choices they did, and C) explaining why I think the alternatives are better. You have still yet to do anything but assert that I am wrong.

 

[Putzfrau]

Okay, my main assertion was that WD is better than Mystery.

Here is why:

1) There are better ways to deal with hordes. This includes, but is not limited too, sallies, life, avoidance, and redirection. All of those options leave your slann with either A) a better more useful lore to do other things with or B) life, which has better buffs and a better "big" spell, along with miscast protection.

2) It's safer. This means that, if you desire, you can have your Slann in a unit of temple guard. He can also leave said unit of temple guard at any point throughout the game if you want to "get aggressive" with that unit. This way you have options you wouldn't have if you "cant" put your unit into the templeguard for fear of miscast.
A) Templeguard and slann benefit each other, BECAUSE it is point bloated. This unit will keep its points. You do not want your temple guard unit to die, or your slann. They keep each other safe. This unit will never be fighting a 600 point combat unit because you don't put this unit into combats it will lose. The great thing about lizardmen is they have more and better quality chaff than literally any other army in the game. You get to choose the combats you want to have. Yes a 600 point unit of some hulking combat monstrosity of a unit will beat your unit of temple guard. Thats why you dont just push it across the table and play "my death star can beat your death star".
B) The "lost combat potential" of a templeguard unit with a slann is relatively minor. In fact, you could argue that its actually better. Stubborn and ITP are fantastic special rules that people pay lots of points to add into heavy combat units. As mentioned, if you need to get aggressive you can always leave the slann behind and push the block forward.

3) WD arguably has better buffs and better magic missiles than high. Between fire, death, metal, and light signatures you have a plethora of magic missiles that are all great in a variety of different situations. Between miasmas, wyssans, and heavens you have some of the best combat buffs in the game. High has their sig, which is arguably overcoasted and less efficient than any of the magic missiles listed, tempest which is a throw away spell, and arcane unforging which is better for removing magic items than for doing damage. Also, your options are extremely limited. If you want to snipe, you have to cast a suboptimal spell for death sig (where as i've already casted it and killed your caster/character before you even get the CHANCE to use it). It's the same story for if you want something for armor, if you want fire ball for flaming against t3, if you want wyssans, if you want etc etc etc. You're casting spells that are objectively worse to get spells I already have and can already cast. Being able to cast tempest, or soul quench or arcane unforging isn't worth it if in a vast vast vast majority of situations you'd be better off casting something else (like searing doom, etc) in the first place.

4) Spell swapping is hard to make work in practice. WD gives you a sizable list of spells that are already optimal in a variety of situations. The spells you want to swap into from High you already have access to with WD. It requires a level of micromanaging that barely ever works out as well as you want it to, and it requires you to cast a bunch of suboptimal spells just to get rid of them. In a game where you're lucky to get off more than a half dozen spells a game, how many of those do you really want to be suboptimal?

5) At the end of the day you really don't want to be six dicing a spell like fiery convocation without the miscast protection you get from a lore like life. If you could chose to swap in throne of vines, high would be great, but you don't get to choose. A slann is just too big of a risk to want to consistently six dice a spell with little to no miscast protection. If you add in miscast protection it comes at the cost of something else. Taking life doesnt require that cost, nor does taking WD (because you won't be six dicing spells).


In summary the benefits of High boil down to two main points: 1) a big spell and 2) potentially having the WD spells anyways.

If you want a big spell Life is a better option because the big spell is better, you get miscast protection, and the utility is arguably just as good, if not stronger.

If you're going to be swapping into WD spells for spirit leech or searing doom... you're probably just better off to have those spells so you can cast them at the optimal time, instead of getting off suboptimal spells so you can have them in the future when they might not be as useful.

I think there is literally one army list where high magic works well, and thats only because of walk between worlds. A monster mash list benefits greatly from the heal and walk between worlds, but this is already a suboptimal list. Using High doesnt suddenly make the list competitive. As you stated, high magic isn't "safe" enough to use consistently with templeguard, nor is it optimal enough to make it the go to choice outside of a templeguard unit. WD, light, shadow, metal, and DEATH are all better options outside of a TG unit, while WD and Life are infinity more optimal if you choose to have your slann in one.


I hope i explained myself well enough. As i said, i hope we can agree to disagree because i'm pretty much done with this conversation. I dont think i will convince you, just as I'm already pretty sure you won't convince me. High magic is a lore that looks great on paper, especially with the lizardmen attribute, but i've found that even in a best case scenario it works out about as well as WD does without needing a "best cast scenario".

 

[Markhaus]

Skavenpelt adds 6 attacks, Earthblood gives regeneration, and the TG provide better defense than a few skinks.

I am sure play styles have a lot to do with it, but the majority of wins I have had were with WD, firmly bunkered in his block of TG. The majority of losses were with FoM. 5 points more for a lore that you are trying to get rid of spells from is not worth it in my mind (oddly miscasts are more frequent for me on 2 dice than 6, so that is not a factor in my thoughts)

A swarm of pathetic little spells of WD are better than 1 big spell taken out by scroll, dispel or failed casting.

And murdering heroes with iceshard+spirit leech is just the cherry on top.

(Has anyone gotten arcane unforging to work? I always fight demons or they dispel it or the 2 times I got it off they made their ward save)

We are getting off topic. I am sure there can be another thread that does not detract from Sleboda's excellent Battle Reports.

 

[hdctambien]

And murdering heroes with iceshard+spirit leech is just the cherry on top.

Getting even more off topic.. Iceshard doesn't help Spirit Leech.

Edit: I suppose Iceshard could help if you cast it on the General, then target another model with Spirit Leech so that their Inspiring Presence is lower (until the Inspiring Presence is lower than their own Ld, in which case they can just use their own)

 

[NexS1]

(Has anyone gotten arcane unforging to work? I always fight demons or they dispel it or the 2 times I got it off they made their ward save)

I love unforging! I don't even care if they save the wound, it's all about destroying the magic item!

Remember, you roesolve the wound THEN roll the 2+ to destroy the magic item. The magic item destruction doesnt rely on the wound going through

It's a great spell and people fricken hate it. People also hate fiery convocation. because of its high casting value it's harder to dispel in preceeding turns!

 

[Markhaus]

I have dropped 2 iceshards on the general and then blasted him before. Even if the LD is 10, 8+1d6 vs 10+1d6 can exterminate them. As far as that stupid FAQ, his unmodified roll is still his modified.

Thanks for the clarification on arcane unforging! I thought the wound had to happen for the magic item to be blasted (I suspect I will have to argue about this at the store).

 

[NexS1]

Just hand them the book, (or the magic card). It says "blah blah blah wounds on armour save, no armour saves allowed. Then roll a 2+ to destroy random item"

unless they can't read, then you read it to them

 

[hdctambien]

As far as that stupid FAQ, his unmodified roll is still his modified.

While that is what people like to say, it is not entirely true. The relevant FAQs are:

Q: If a unit taking a Leadership test has a modifier to its
Leadership, will this modifier still apply if the unit uses the
General’s Leadership, because of the Inspiring Presence special rule
for example? (p10)
A: Yes

Q: When taking a Leadership test, sometimes you have to take it on
your unmodified Leadership. What is your unmodified Leadership?
(p10)
A: Your unmodified Leadership is the highest Leadership
characteristic in the unit. So the Leadership from any
characters in the unit itself (but not from outside the unit, from
Inspiring Presence for example) with a higher Leadership can
be used unless specifically stated otherwise

Q: Do units benefit from their General’s Inspiring Presence for the
purposes of spells that use Leadership, such as Spirit Leech or
Okkam’s Mindrazor? (p107)
A: Yes.

So, in order they say:

1. Leadership modifiers apply after applying Inspiring Presence
2. Unmodified Ld of a unit is the "highest Ld" *inside* the unit (specifically not from Inspiring Presence)
3. Inspiring Presence can be used for Spirit Leech.

So, the only modification that is allowed is Inspiring Presence. The first FAQ that allows modifiers after IP is inconsequential because the Leadership is *un*modified.

At best you could try to use another one of the FAQs

Q: Does a magic item or spell that gives a bonus to a characteristic, do
so bonus for all rules purposes (e.g. the efect of spells, characteristic
tests, etc)? (p4)
A: Yes, except for magic weapons or where the description of
the item or spell specifically says otherwise.

But unless you're going to try to define Iceshard Blizzard's "-1 Ld" as a *bonus* then even this FAQ doesn't apply. And even so, Spirit Leechl specifically says "unmodified Ld" so it "specifically says otherwise".

Spirit Leech works off of whatever is highest: the unmodified Ld of any part of the Model or the General's Inspiring Presence.

 

[Knight Errant]

With due respect to everyone, I look forward to the time when this thread returns to discussing Sleboda's battle reports

 

[Screamer]

I agree!

Let's see another battlereport in the WD-slann-challange!

 

[sillyduck123]

I enjoyed reading all 30 pages of this

 

[Sleboda]

Date: July 26, 2014
Opponent: High Elves
Point Value: 2400
Scenario: Battle for the Pass

SPECIAL REPORT - Phatmotha-Phuka EDITION #2

Overview
Long-time readers will notice that I did a few things that go against my normal way of doing things. I really wanted to add in some Cold One Cavalry, and the only way I could see to do this was to cut the Kroxigor unit in half. Also, in order to beef up my Slann to better use Wandering Deliberations, I had to modify my Old Blood, which is why he had a halberd instead of the +2A sword.

My overall plan was simple - cast as many spells as a I could while advancing my forces, trying to get him to shoot my Bastiladon and skinks instead of the Troglodon. I have some degree of faith in my Saurus unit, and if I could get the Trog to help out at a key moment, things might go ok.


My list:
1 Slann - Wandering Deliberations, Harmonic, CH Staff
1 Oldblood on Coldone - Glittering Scales, Dawnstone, Halberd
1 Scar-vet BSB - Armor of Destiny, Great Weapon

10 Skink Skirmishers with Javelins & Shields
10 Skink Skirmishers with Javelins & Shields
17 Skink Skirmishers with Javelins & Shields
29 Saurus - Full Command

5 Cold One Riders - Spears, Std, Music
4 Krox
1 Bastiladon - Solar Engine

1 Ancient Stegadon with Engine of the Gods
1 Troglodon with Rod

His army:
L4 High Wizard - Scroll
BSB

25 or so Sea Guard
25 or so Sea Guard
25 or so Sea Guard

20 Swordmasters
6 Dragon Princes

Frost Heart Phoenix
3 Bolt Throwers
2 Eagles


Summary of Events
We rolled Battle for the Pass. I got to go first. His spells were Apotheosis, Arcane Unforging, Drain Magic, and Hand of Glory.

I had the left half of the table. From top (edge opposite me) to bottom, I was deployed in this order:
Skinks, Krox (2x2), Trog, Saurus with BSB and OldBlood, Ancient Stegadon, Bastiladon, Cavalry, Slaan Skink bunker behind cavalry, Skinks.

He was:
Sea Guard, Eagle, Swordmasters with Phoenix behind, Sea Guard with BSB and L4, Sea Guard, Princes, Bolt throwers.

There was terrain, but only two pieces impacted the game. There was a hill in front of his bolt throwers, partially blocking their LoS to certain targets, and I had a woods (turned out to be normal) in the center, in front of my Stegadon and Bastiladon.

Turn 1
Out two cavalry units were faced off against each other and our main combat lines were as well. I knew I had to do something about the eagles and also slow down his cavalry so that I could control the flow a bit. I advanced some, but really just made sure I had range with spells to start blasting some things.

In the first round I wounded a bolt thrower with the Bastiladon (he let that go every time but always used dice to stop Burning Alignment...interesting). Despite having 4 channels, 3 of which worked on 5+, I only got more than one bonus die a single time (power or dispel) and even then it was only two dice. This was a time I got zero. The Slann's spells, some through the Trog, did noting.

In his first turn he tried to fly an eagle over my lines, but I pointed out that he had to clear the back of my unit by a full inch and also account for his base. This would not be possible, just as I had planned.

I only cared about Arcane Unforging, letting other spells go. Nothing really happened. He got ward boosts on his mage bunker, but I didn't really care.

His shooting killed 7 Skinks in front of the bolt throwers, who held. It also killed 5 other skinks, making them panic through the Krox, who also ran away.

Turn 2
This turn was really just about positioning for both of us. I wanted to make sure I didn't get out flanked, and he wanted to set up redirects.

What matters is that his shooting killed two Cold Ones, my Krox and skinks rallied, my skinks near the bolt throwers did one wound to them and then died, and through a combined effort of lots and lots of spells and javelins (never forget to shoot the ones on your monsters!) I killed both eagles. I also slowed down the Princes with Miasma.

Interestingly, he never tried to stop my Fireball spells, even a Level 3 version at his Phoenix.

Turn 3
In this turn he engaged. The Princes failed a charge against my Cold Ones, but other stuff got in. I just had to hold one until my next turn so I could use the Trog+Wildform. It went well. My saurus took only 9 wounds from the swordmasters in their front and 2 from the Phoenix in their rear. In return, they dished out about 7 wounds to the Swordmasters and 2 to the Phoenix. Being stubborn, they held.

The Krox had been engaged by a block of Sea Guard, but they only did 2 wounds to me. The Krox killed half his unit back, but they held.

My Ancient Stegadon was pinned in place, on my battle line right where I wanted him.


Turn 4
The counter attack was on.
I charged his Princes with the Cold Ones and the Bastiladon, but only the Cold Ones made it in. Uh oh.
Meanwhile, I brought the Trog in range.

In magic, I got Iceshard on his Swordmasters and Wildform on my Saurus. You know, the two spells that I can get even without the Slann.

The Trog roared and the glory was on.

In combat, I started with the Krox, who broke the Sea Guard (one model left) and chased them...right into the corner of the Swordmasters. Then we did the Cavalry Fight. He swung and did not harm any of my three models. Swings back saw the Saurus kill 4 knights and the Cold Ones kill the other two. Yeah!

In the main fight, I took only about 7 more wounds, and then killed about 10 more Swordmasters and put two more wounds on the Phoenix. The Trog's roar generated a total of about 10 additional hits, Iceshard saved me about 5 hits, and Wildform had about a 6 wound swing. The Swordmasters fled. The Phoenix fled. Both were killed.

He had his mage bunker and two bolt throwers left and threw in the towel.

Result: Victory to the Lizardmen!


Post-game Thoughts and Unit Evaluations
As usual, more details are in each unit's bit, but the quick version is that WD+extra channeling cost me almost 400 points and forced me to spend a unit to bunker him away from the fight (and that bunker lost 4 inches of march move because of it) - and it didn't matter. The spells that mattered were ones I can get on Skinks for a lot less. Heck, I can take 4 skinks with the sig spell (2 each) for his cost. I'll keep going, but at the moment, the Slann experiment is not all that exciting.


Skink Skirmishers with Javelins and Shields
They were pretty disappointing today, especially compared to...

Saurus Warriors
...these guys. More and more I am starting to trust in this block. I know the skinks have their place, and likely I need to still have both, but man, my Saurus are fun.

Size matters, for sure. Even with Swordmasters to the front and a Phoenix in the rear, the block was large enough to weather the storm while support arrived.

Bastiladon
It's always interesting to see how people react to him. On one hand, they really focus on him, but on the other hand, they always express surprise that he is much weaker than they thought. He did a good job for his points in this game, but I would consider cutting him to get more of something else.

Ancient Stegadon
His toolbox of abilities are good to have. Each helped out in this game. He made my spells easier to cast here and there, drew out enemy dispel dice, and helped in the battle line. Solid, if not spectacular.

Kroxigor
After a shaky start with their panic, they rallied to be right where they needed to be at the end. There was only one in contact with the Swordmasters (and one in support), but he alone generated 5 wounds. Thanks PF! The four of them easily handled the Sea Guard block they fought. Yes, elves land lots of blows, but Krox have the T and armor to handle S3 stuff and then crush it in return, which is exactly what they did.

Saurus BSB
His re-roll actually saved my bacon at least 4 times. I was surprised he was never singled out for attack, nor was the Oldblood.

Oldblood on Cold One
I suppose a halberd is fine, but I prefer 2 more Attacks. As I just said above, I was surprised he was not attacked directly. I didn't mention it in the report, but he lost his armor to an Unforging at one point, so my opponent really should have been going after him more.

Slann
Meh. Really failing to see the appeal. He takes so much away from so many other things in my army and doesn't offer much of significance in return. The one thing about him that makes him useful, in my eyes, is his Leadership. If Oldbloods were Ld9, I would have no reason at all to take a Frog.

Troglodon
He was a beast! He even shot an eagle with a poisonous spitball (but only did 1 wound). He was used to cast spells, but the spells didn't matter anyway, so that was no big deal. The roar finally came through! It's really dumb that this is not just an 'always on' effect. It's soooo rare that you live to use it the one time you are allowed, and even then, those who get affected by it are often too whittled down to make much use of it. I was just really fortunate today that my opponent left him alone.

Cold One Cavalry
If they had been charged, they would have died easily. Since they got to charge, they had a shot. I was not confident with only three models, but I could not just hand around. I was amazed that the dice went as they did, but sometiems that happens and in this game I was the beneficiary. It's too bad, really, that they cannot get lances and a magic banner. I would definitely like to use these guys some more.

Thanks for reading!

 

[Putzfrau]

Ya, but skink priests die to a stiff breeze.

Seems like the slann did EXACTLY what you needed him to do. He got off crucial spells and held his points.

I'm not sure what you are expecting from him.

Would you mind elaborating on what a slann could do that would "wow" you?

Good battle report tho, nicely done!

 

[Sleboda]

What a fantastic question, Putzfrau! It's so simple, but it's also a great way to examine our lists, and units within them, from a different angle. Nice.

Actually, I could see a series of threads here and in other places that use that questions as the basis for discussion. I may just have to start one of two around here somewhere...

Anyway, let's do one here.


What Do I Expect From a Slann in My Games?
Well, if I am being honest, I expect him to disappoint me regularly by eating up points I would rather have spent elsewhere, pinning a unit in place guarding him rather than participating in the game, and ultimately blowing himself up and giving up his victory points.

Ok, ok, that's the pessimistic take on it. Not overly productive, I know, but fun to type out nonetheless.

If I were to put a more positive spin on it, here is what I would want:

• Better Leadership for my general
• Greater variety of spells
• Slightly different from above, I also want access to spells that I cannot otherwise get in my army so that I can support my units as best as possible
• If I spend 300-500 points on a unit, I expect that unit to have a consistent, significant, noticeable impact on the flow of events. I expect my Slann units (I include his bunker) to wow me by blowing a 200 point unit out of the sky at least twice in a game, or healing a monster back from Death's Door to full health, or to totally shut down an opponent's 200-400 point investment in magic, or to ensure - yes ensure - that my own magic phase is fully effective (10+ power dice, lots of spells getting through, etc.) at least 4 times, and preferably 5 times, in the game.

Short version: I expect him to actually DO something, not just be Mr. Subtle Influence.

On the flip side, here are some things I don't expect from him, do really want from him, or upset me when they happen:

• I don't care that he holds points. I know that points denial is a thing, and sometimes it's useful, but it's boring when used on purpose as a part of a plan at the expense of taking other things that would have been more active and engaging for both players. I'll note when it worked on my favor after a game, but it's rare that I build a unit with the idea that it's holding points for me.
• I don't expect him to survive the whole game or to stand up in a fight. It's my job to make sure he does not get stuck in combat.
• I get upset when I play conservatively with the dice and still miscast repeatedly. The current magic system is ridiculous in how it handles risk. A wizard should not have to worry that when he casts Shem's on 2 dice, he may suffer the same penalty as casting Dwellers on 6 dice. It happens though, and too often for my liking. The magic phase in general upsets me, not because it's too powerful, but because even when you try to 'play nice' you get hosed.

My conclusion based on all that is that I have no solution to my issue. It appears I want High Magic since it is far more likely to affect the course of the game in dramatic fashion, but these spells require that I cast fewer of them on more dice, making it easier for the spells to be stopped and the magic phase to be totally meaningless. On the other hand, with Wandering Deliberations I can cast more spells, likely getting one or two to work each phase, but their effect on the game does not justify using a Slann to make them happen - kind of like using a grenade to kill an ant.

It's a sort of a personal Catch 22.

 

[boots468]

How come when you're trying the slann, you're also including (and using power dice on) the Bastiladon and the EotG Ancient Steg?

Your frog already has three flaming magic missiles, which reduces the need for a Beam of Chotec and as you only know one spell from each lore, you're getting the very minimum return from the Arcane Configuration possible.

No wizard is ever going to really shine if he's only given a few power dice to play with, and if you were to aim to try and use all your power dice through the slann only, perhaps you'd notice his impact more?

(though a single lvl1 priest or Ruby Ring of Ruin may be handy as a back-up dice outlet in case of broken concentration... )

 

[Markhaus]

I would agree that skinks are better for your casting phase, but you can't rely on magic. The slann is great for denying the enemy spells. I have had games where the only spell an opponent was able to get off was the one that I said "this spell won't do anything".

45 points for +1 power dice not just for you, but for dispelling your opponent.

Using your slann as a bsb also saves the points for losing a scar veteran to carry a flag and be targeted by the enemy.

Try bsb with discipline and nuke a hero with spirit leech. 10 LD even against 10 LD gives a d6 vs a d6 to possibly kill a major character. My group also has a lot of demons and undead, so shem's always helps.

 

[Putzfrau]

Thanks for the extensive answer.

If i may respond just a bit, i do think at least one of your expectations is pretty far off base. Expecting a slann to create a 10ish dice magic phase 4 times a game is... I want to say outlandish, but maybe unfair is a better word.

Also, i believe requiring him to do at least 400 points of damage, is again, being a bit unfair. Assuming he takes off 400 points of enemy models consistently would make him easily the best unit in the game. Because he would be doing that, in additional to everything else he provides.

He's one of, if not the safest wizard in the game. multiple wounds and built in 4+ ward is BEAST especially considering he can cast through skink priests keeping him away from almost everything dangerous. It gives you a great dispelling platform that instantly makes every single opponents magic phase more difficult.

Honestly it just sounds like you want a combat unit, which is fine! but a slann is never going to have the impact of a combat unit. A combat units impact is noticeable and quantifiable every single game. A slanns impact can be more subtle, but just as important.

You're going to get about 5-7 spells through a game. A slann isn't going to change much about. You NEED the slann to do two of these three things. Buff an important combat, snipe an expensive enemy character/unit, survive.

Every game you've played the slann has done that for you, even with your absurdly bad magic luck.

Honestly, from the sound of it you just dont like magic, or the "metagame" that surrounds the magic phase. Which like i said earlier, is totally fine. Obviously different strokes and all that. But relying on the frog to be killing, by himself, 400 points of the enemy unit is setting yourself up for disappointment.

I looked at your last game like this. Having a level 4 probably made dispelling slightly more manageable. It made getting off that critical Wyssans and iceshard easier because your wizard was A) alive, and B) a level 4. Wyssans on a level 1 or 2 is a 4 dice cast. On a level 4 it can be cast on 3 reliably. It also contributed in killing some of the bolt throwers (i think?).

It sounds like the slann did you pretty well. Was it the game breaking, unit destroying monster something like a k'daai or demon prince is? no, probably not. But it provided a critical role that i dont believe you would have been able to substitute for a skink priest.

Just my 2 cents anyways, glad you're at least giving the slann a fair shake. Seems kinda funny you're three main armies (from the sounds of it) are skaven, tomb kings, and lizardmen and those are probably the 3 most magic reliant armies in the game (and maybe vc!) Obviously take everything written here with a grain of salt, i'm far from a professional and dont want to sound too preachy.

Have you ever thought of playing an army that had a bit more combat punch? Personally i think the high elves have a really dynamic combat phase right now that utilizes a lot of interesting and varied units.

Only have to tough it out for one more game been a real pleasure reading your reports!

 

[Sleboda]

Thanks for the extensive answer.

=> No problem. I like a good discussion, and I'm not exactly known to minimize my word count.

Expecting a slann to create a 10ish dice magic phase 4 times a game is... I want to say outlandish, but maybe unfair is a better word.

=> Is it though? The most common roll result on 2D6 is 6-8, which happens about 42% of the time. So, about half of the time you roll those bones, you should fall in this range. Let's skip 6 and 8 and go with 7. To get to 10 dice, I need to have 3 more dice from somewhere. With him getting channels on 5+ using 3 dice, I should reliably figure on 1 more. Now we are at 8 dice most of the time. Maybe 10 is too much to expect, but 8 is not enough for a 400ish point model whose major purpose is to use up those dice. Add in the usage from the Bastiladon and Engine, and you are down to 6 dice with which to cast. Never use just one die at a time or you have a one third chance to make all your other dice useless. That's 3 spells you can try, 2 if you need them, or just 1 if you want to kill yourself over it.

I need him to generate 10 dice many times or I am not going to get value for his points. That's why my expectation for him is to do this- because if he does not do this, he is a waste in my army. I could spend his points on things that do not have random access to usage each turn nor do they draw from a finite resource. In order for magic to be past of a plan, I have to minimize this randomness and maximize the resource pool.

Also, i believe requiring him to do at least 400 points of damage, is again, being a bit unfair. Assuming he takes off 400 points of enemy models consistently would make him easily the best unit in the game. Because he would be doing that, in additional to everything else he provides.

=> So? Cannons at 120 points can take out much more. A charging unit of Chaos Knights can easily take down units worth that much. There are lots of things in Warhammer that deal out damage like that, and many of them cost far less. Actually, look back at my last game and see how my Oldblood took out the Mournfang unit. He's far less expensive than my Slann, far more reliable, and doesn't rely on a random roll to see if he gets to make all 5 (7 actually) of his attacks. He _starts_ at 7 attacks and goes up from there. It's never lower than that. I can guarantee his starting point. Can't do that with magic.

Also, what more does the Slann provide? He is spells and +1Ld on the General. That's all he is.

He's one of, if not the safest wizard in the game. multiple wounds and built in 4+ ward is BEAST especially considering he can cast through skink priests keeping him away from almost everything dangerous. It gives you a great dispelling platform that instantly makes every single opponents magic phase more difficult.

=> True (other than the dispel things - that's a normal L4 thing that he's no better at than any other L4).

You're going to get about 5-7 spells through a game. A slann isn't going to change much about. You NEED the slann to do two of these three things. Buff an important combat, snipe an expensive enemy character/unit, survive.

Every game you've played the slann has done that for you, even with your absurdly bad magic luck.

=> Like I've said, though, my Priests handle the buffing just fine, and if they don't survive, it's not a big loss. As to sniping, well, I just don't see that very often in any games, so I'm not going to count on the Slann to do it for me.

Honestly, from the sound of it you just dont like magic, or the "metagame" that surrounds the magic phase.

=> Ding ding ding! We have a winner!

I looked at your last game like this. Having a level 4 probably made dispelling slightly more manageable.

=> A bit, but then again, I believe that in any one magic phase there is really only one spell you have to stop, so even a L1 can toss all his dice at it if need be. I usually let my opponents cast all the damage spells they want. For the most part, those are just a different version of a unit of crossbows or other shooters. It's the game-shifters I try to stop, like Unmaking, and there is usually only one of those in a player's hand. This was the case in the last game. I just let him cast most of this spells, not caring what he wanted to do with them.

It sounds like the slann did you pretty well.

=> Yeah, I'm glad I won. It always seems like sour grapes to complain after a loss. When you win (and don't even miscast at all for once!), it makes what you say more likely to be treated fairly.

...you're three main armies (from the sounds of it) are skaven, tomb kings, and lizardmen and those are probably the 3 most magic reliant armies in the game

=> Funny you should say that. My skaven army usually has only a L2 Plague Priest in it and maybe a warlock engineer. I pretty much never take a Seer. There's too much other fun stuff in the book to waste the points on him. Sort of like how I feel about Lizardmen. For the Tomb Kings, it's Khatep, Khatep, Khatep all the time. Re-roll a cast per phase and having Loremaster makes him much more useful than most wizards. Sometimes I'll add in another wizard, but even then it's usually just a L1 Death to hang out with the King and threaten Ld10 Leeches (that never go off).

Have you ever thought of playing an army that had a bit more combat punch?

=> I have all the armies. I've been looking at Dwarves as a next list, or Chaos Dwarves (for the K'Daii ).