Awesome, again thanks for the responses. One more question if you don't mind. What specifically about your experience/personality/whatever do you think s caused you to have such a vastly different opinion than "most people"? What I mean by that is that the slann seems to be almost universally feared by non lizardmen players and loved by lizardmen players. Obviously the opinion you have is almost the polar opposite.
I see where both are you are coming from. The state of magic makes it tough to have a consistent and reliable plan when based around it. It manages to take Murphy's Law to the next level. On the other hand I still see the Slann more as pyschological warfare, and it's hard to put a point value on having one unit dramatically change how your opponent plans for battle. I don't think it's going to be a way to definitely say Slann or no Slann when the unit's influence on the game is the exact opposite of the fluff. Rarely in game will the Slann be destroying armies with a flick of the wrist; but the very subtle changes in battle due to a Slann are something that's a very real and hard to predict thing.
Lizardmen have no mechanism to reliably produce a 10 dice magic phase (lore of death excluded). Your expectations are unrealistic. Nonetheless, if you are starved for power dice then I'd question both the bastiladon and the Engine. What do these things do that 2 more dice for the slann don't do better?
Interestimg view on letting the damage dealing spells through and treating them just like incoming missile fire. Never thought of it like that. Might try it next time. I have to admit to having the Slann as a crutch in most of my lizardman armies. Only tried tetto twice - Once got crushed by a VC army with blender lord, and then lost to another Lizardman army, also with tetto (mine was obviously an imposter!). Never tried just taking a couple of priests even boosted to level 2. Having taken a long time to taking tetto, 2 skink priests is a big leap for me personally at the moment! One day though, one day.... I have to agree that I am very disappointed when the Slann miscasts and if bunkered with TG takes half the unit out. T1 in particular is a real pain. There are ways around this obviously (bunker him with skinks for example). With regard to the slann taking out units, Fiery Convocation (? Spelling) can do that, or at least come very close to it (I've managed it twice, once against skaven and again against VC). Does take a huge amount of dice though. But if you can get it through, its a beast of a spell. Really enjoyed reading the reports, your journey with the lizardmen and the discussions on here. Keep them coming.
Dont have much to add Sleb, the guys seems to ask the right questions. I just want to let you know im following your experience with the frog. I would like to emphasize a few things though.. 1. The slann DOES have the tools to be a better dispel'er than other LVL 4's. While Becalming Cogitations is not the beast it used to be, its still valuable for a couple of reasons R1: It cuts the danger of losing concentration in half (depending on your play of course) R2: It allows you to take chances on your dice you normally couldn't justify, which for me often leads to me having that 1 spare dice to use on the Eldritch Diciplin. 2. Try adopting the "my slann takes care of the magic" mindset and leave the bastiladon and engine (not necessarily the stegadon) at home. Thats around 230 pts cleared, and it could be that it brings down the "my slann is a point drop" feelings a bit and then a question: Are you really not experiencing having a easier time casting wildform and iceshard than if it was skinks rolling? I would like to have a sum up of how you spend your magic phase it seems like you are doing things different than I do, and I suspect that is where we find the cause of preference. also: I am working on a new list that tries to convert the Cold One Bus + Tetto into an ETC approved format (basically meaning no tetto..) It will be the next "out of my comfortzone" project for me Any suggestions for it?
I've had a lot of success running a combat-oriented Slann, a bus full of scar-vet cowboys, and a whole lot of skinks.
I'm curious about this as well. They way I see it, if you have 1 level of Skink Priest, his spell will never go off. A level 4 will be able to out roll you every time, excepting double 6's. 2 levels of skink priests (one level 2 or two level 1's), and maybe you'll cast one of the 2 spells, but most likely a level 4 will have enough dice to stop both spells and never bother using his scroll. 3+ levels of skinks priests *and* enough power dice and you might get 1 spell off, if you have 3 spells worth casting (read: 3 spells your opponent cares to dispel ...) Each bastiladon/stegadon you add might help get a useful spell off... maybe. 50% of the time when your one die gets the bound spell off and your opponent bothers to throw 1 or 2 dice to stop it. 3 levels of Skinks, with a dispel scroll, and a bastiladon will run you 340 points. For a few points more you could have the Cube for help dispelling. A Slann with a dispel scroll will run you 325 points. For a few points more you could have 8 spells to play with (High or Signatures). There is a lot you can do with an average Winds of Magic roll and 8 spells. Sure, your Skink priest could cast Wyssan's. But your Slann can work around dispel dice by threatening Wyssan's (do 16% more wounds, take 16% less wounds), Earth Blood (take 33% less wounds.. to your TG bunker unit, and heal something), and Miasma (lowing WS for a possible 16% more hits and taking 16% less hits, and maybe warp the Slann out harms way). A Slann with 7 dice can attempt all three of those spells. Against a level 4 with 1 - 5 dice, the Slann will get *at least* one of those spells off. Even with 6 dispel dice the Slann has a good chance of getting one of those spells off. That's for the later turns when you're in Close Combat. Turns 1, 2 and maybe 3 you've got so many Magic Missiles it's not even funny. Your opponent can choose his poison. Does he want to get hit by a Fireball, Searing Doom, or Shem's? He probably doesn't want to get hit by all three. Even if you're rolling low, poorly balanced Winds. a 3 and a 1. A Slann can attempt 2 spells, and have a shot at getting 1 of them off. A Skink Priest isn't casting anything that turn (again, ignoring IF). However, Sleboda has a bit of a luck-but-not-luck problem. If you find yourself constantly rolling IF with 2 dice, then Skink Priests will cast more spells than expected and they will lose you less points when they die to the miscasts. If you roll IF with 2 dice closer to 2.7% of the time like everyone else (or 7.4% of the time with 3 dice), then the Slann will successfully cast more spells more often than Skinks. Note: if you're attempting 3 spells per turn, rolling 3 dice per spell. You should miscast between 1.1 and 1.3 times. Since you're probably not going to have dice to cast 3 spells per turn, and in turns 1 and 6 you might have have range/reason to cast many/any spells that number is probably just about once per game. That's not too shabby, especially if you are expecting it. (of course, you could roll double 6's on your first spell every magic phase ... who knows!) Long story short ... without a Slann you have to pay a Slanns amount of points for enough magic-power to participate competitively in the magic phase. And with a Slann, you gain flexibility that allows you to manage your opponents dispel dice/scroll.
Really great stuff, folks, thanks! Lots to respond to. Let's see, in no particular order, and with a minimum of quoting, here are some thoughts---- My opinion on the Slann does indeed differ from that of many other people, and my expectations are perhaps greater than they should be given how magic works in Warhammer. Maybe there is something uniting those two in my brain. Yes, I do expect that when I invest points in any element of my army, it should perform well and within a certain range of randomness. ** Point of order here worth establishing - When I talk about expectations and the like, I am assuming games played in normal Warhammer, by the rules, against opponents of equal skill, and so on. ** The entire idea of a points system is to allow you to play a game where the two sides are well-matched and the skills of the generals plus a dash of the whims of fate will govern the outcome. It's not all points, of course, since we do have limits even within the points on things like percentages, duplicates, and so on. It all comes together, with points at the core, to create a game where I can spend 300 points pretty much anywhere within my list, legally, and know that it's worth 300 points I would have spent elsewhere within my list (book), legally. If that's not what it means, then there really is no need for points and balance is not a goal at all. So, with that said, yes, I expect my 300-500 point investment in a spellcaster (or a cadre of spell casters) to give me the tools for success that any other 300-500 point investment within my book would have. Note that I am not saying that I get the same stuff, or that it will work the same way, just that it will give me equal value. A slann does not give me equal value to the same points in Priests or in Cowboys, and GIGANTIC part of the reason why is the flawed, stupid, ridiculous nature of the magic system in Warhammer. I've touched on that before so I won't make this post into an in-depth analysis of the magic system, but I clearly do have issues with the system, and that puts a Slann on the back foot to begin with, in my eyes. He is not a Ancient Stegadon that provides non-dispellable ward saves to nearby models, can hold up blocks of troops in combat, does ok damage in that combat, and so on in addition to having some magic capability. He is a spellcaster, and that's it, with the lone exception of his boosted Ld. He can also become the BSB, but that costs more and gives him the liabilities of all BSBs, namely that he dies when he breaks. He is there to cast spells as his first, second, and third jobs. That is his purpose. That's the reason why you buy him, and nothing else. I think some people remember how good he used to be. How he could use Cupped Hands and other tricks to avoid the randomness and perils of the magic system. In this version, he cannot do that but people still see him in the old light. His translation into 8th has done him in as a high point value wizard, in my opinion. This is why I prefer the little guys. They still take the risk he takes with not nearly as much lost when they die. EDIT1: More stuff- The disconnect between my view and that of others is well illustrated in this quote: => That'a a reasonable point if your goal is to participate competitively in the magic phase. That's not, however, my goal. I accepted long ago that the magic phase is not one in which one competes. It's a phase in which one closes one's eyes and prays for divine provenance to see one through. It's a random crap shoot, from generating the tools of the phase (the spells themselves) all the way up to how it's the one part of the game where your opponent can so actively prevent your investment from working. (As I often say, "Where is my Dispel Cannon Shot Scroll or my Dispel Successful Charge Roll Scroll?") I believe that trying to participate in the magic phase competitively is not really possible, at least not in the same way as it is for all other phases. Too much randomness, too many variables, too much 'stuff' going on to actually make a plan. I choose to avoid making that phase part of my overall plan at all. It's more of a nice little perk when something magical happens in my favor. So, when I see a Slann+stuff vs. a few monsters+priests, I am not seeing a comparison. They are not in the army for the same reasons. The Slann is there to attempt the impossible - to take control of an uncontrollable storm of chaos. It's pissing into the wind and hoping to come out dry and odor free. The monsters are there to dabble and catch a ride on the winds of chance when possible and, mainly, to fight a few battles and hold up enemy movement/lines and the priests are a throw away cost - sort of like buying a lottery ticket. Actually, that just came to me and is a great way to say what I mean. I play the lottery, but have zero expectations that I will win it. It's a simpler equation, with a lower number of factors, but it's still wild chance, just like spell casting. That said, if I don't have a priest with Wildform, I cannot possibly cast the spell. Just like how I have to buy a ticket for the lottery to have even that one in a billion chance to win it. I don't plan to win the lottery. My purchases and investments are not based around winning it. If it happens, great. If not, no big deal. Just like priests. I assume I will not get a single spell off with them, and I build my plan based on that (the complete lack of help from magic). If they get a Wildform off here and there, yay! Getting a slann and tooling him up is the equivalent of spending $50 on lottery tickets instead of $2. Do your odds get better? Yeah, in a statistically insignificant way, they do. It's just not enough against the reality of the lottery odds or the magic phase variables. EDIT2: Even more- Ok, like I implied, this is sort of going to be random thoughts, not a perfectly structures argument for my opinion, so here are some more things. It was mentioned that my personality may be a factor in my evaluation of the Slann. Yep. I am highly risk averse in life and gaming (though after a few beers I will often declare the Fu^& It Phase and charge like crazy ). I double up on things I don't need two of. I use more dice than I should for fear of Not Enough Power. I always take Khatep instead of a normal Liche for TK because of his staff. I don't like Tetto because his re-rolls of 1's mean a greater chance for miscasts. I don't declare charges unless I am almost certain to make them. I don't cheat on my wife because she might find out and kill me (besides the fact that I love her and cheating is dumb). Risk sucks. The magic phase is all about risk. Man, even my Skaven don't have stuff like the Abomination because of its random charge distance. Bad Risk, bad. If you take a Slann it means you are deciding that magic is a very real part of your plan. You are banking on getting lucky. I don't believe in luck. I can't understand how some people are willing to say "I could invest in things I know work a certain way, but instead I will put a pile of points into Hope." Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment. Screw hope. If you take that Slann and invest all sort of points into trying to make him more stable, you open yourself up to even more wild swings of fortune. You have to give up so much to make an inherently chaotic force only marginally less so. It's madness. Why do I take the Bastilladon and Ancient Stegadon? Well, they do tend to present my enemy with choices he or she would rather not confront. Do they shoot the highly-armored Bastilladon with a cannon, knowing that small arms fire is less likely to do it in, or do they send that shot at the Trog or Carnosaur? If the Ancient Stegadon gets too close, is it worth taking his impact hits and then fighting a stubborn beast for a few rounds? These models make the for uncomfortable even before we get to spells. Then we get to spells. The laser is a good early use of power dice. The Engine is a good mid-game use. The priests are good late. By taking those monsters and a priest or two, I exert pressure throughout the game using models that are not vital and who, should they die, do not cripple my overall plan. The plan. I gotta say it again, as was pointed out by others - it's one thing when a cannon misfires in turn 1 or your Trog misses in turn 2. No other war machines or monsters are prevented from shooting or doing other stuff. When your Slann miscasts, it can easily mean that each and every point you have spent on your magic phase is completely wasted. The interconnection of spell casters is dumb on a massive level. I read a phrase (below this post) that really stuck with me: "direct payoff." Yeah, wow, that made me stop and think a bit. More than anything else, I hate how the investment in points in magic is far less likely to have a "direct payoff" than the points spent anywhere else in the game. I don't just mean blowing stuff up, though that's nice too. I mean the process: Spend points->place models->use models intelligently->achieve desired result with great regularity. I can't stand it when, for example, you play the game well, out think your opponent, out maneuver him, get a good combat going, and he rolls insane courage. W....T.....F!??!?!?! I hate random charge distances where you only fail the game-winning charge on snake eyes and get...snake eyes. I hate it when a good plan is effed up by a craptastic die roll. The thing is, these events are rare and they also only have one or two ways to go bad. More often than not, by far, you plan, invest, move, and get a direct payoff. With magic, you don't. You cannot say "I spent 500 points on magic, I played well, and in most cases, it paid off." All you can say is "Whoo hooo! It worked that time!" You can also spend 100 points on an Empire wizard, get Dwellers as his spell, toss 6 dice, and wipe out half your opponent's army. There is no correlation between what you spend and the pay off. Like the lottery example, you can spend a little more and bump up your odds imperceptibly higher, or you could spend $1 and win $1,000,000. There is a disconnect between effort (and planning, and experience, and knowledge, and...) and result in the magic phase. There is no "direct payoff" for what you do. So, um, yeah. Does that help? Any other questions?
Err... so you're saying you don't expect 300-500 points spent differently to do the same things, but then criticise the Slann for not doing what an Ancient Stegadon does? :/ This is doubly flawed as it doesn't consider all the things that the Slann can do which the Stegadon can't, namely not dying to cannons or bolt throwers, the additional casting power of a Slann vs Bound Spells, or the ability to dispel, or the multitude of Spells available, or the benefits that a Slann brings to a unit of Temple Guard, etc etc. And that's after setting unreasonably high expectations for what he can do in the first place. No wonder you are disappointed.
Yeah, I know. Like I said, I have more to add (probably a lot more). That was not the be all end all of my position. It was just the top-level part on magic as a phase and resource. I just had to interrupt my time to take care of something else. I'll be back with more.
Ah, my apologies! For what its worth, I recently found that I had the same problem. Slann + Tetto, low magic phases in 5 turns, barely was able to cast any spells. This was a Slann with no upgrades mind, but that's still a ~500 point investment with little direct pay off. But it was the Slann's Stubborn to Temple Guard, higher Leadership, Tetto's re-rolling 1s, and his Vanguard ability that I found particularly useful nonetheless.
I don't agree that the magic phase is as random as the lottery, though I do understand what you're getting at. The slann has the ability to make the magic phase more reliable and enjoyable through the use of "stuff", these abilities are are mostly accessible only by a slann which makes for a nice advantage. The slann has the ability to turn your "hope" phase into a "should be okay, at least" phase. The slann has other, non-magic phase advantages... but I don't need to go through them, i know you know. Your magic phase game-plan is solid. Pressure applied throughout the game. but relying on priests in late game (or in any other point of the game) is even more hopeful than a level 4, even with the EotG cast value reduction. That being said, i respect your risk free way of thinking. You haven't watched any of my games. I hate this as well. i wrote up a battle report a month or so ago when i played against a Warriors of Chaos Khorne army. The things you describe here as "rare" are not, in my experience, rare. The opposite, in fact! We have what my friends and I call "Brad-luck" (My name is Brad....) The things you describe as rare, such as opponent's stupid double 6 charge rolls, my <3 charge rolls, 1's and 2's to hit when i need 3's... all of it is a regular thing, so I tend to lean on the side of "Magic phase; as a chance to have something go right". When all else fails, at least I can have an OK magic phase
"I accepted long ago that the magic phase is not one in which one competes. It's a phase in which one closes one's eyes and prays for divine provenance to see one through. It's a random crap shoot, from generating the tools of the phase (the spells themselves) all the way up to how it's the one part of the game where your opponent can so actively prevent your investment from working. I believe that trying to participate in the magic phase competitively is not really possible, at least not in the same way as it is for all other phases. Too much randomness, too many variables, too much 'stuff' going on to actually make a plan. I choose to avoid making that phase part of my overall plan at all. It's more of a nice little perk when something magical happens in my favor." I understand where you are coming from, but I feel like if the magic phase were as unreliable as you say, more people wouldn't invest. Unreliability is a killer, but magic (and lots of it) is a near constant mainstay throughout "good" warhammer lists. I literally can't remember the last time I saw a magicless list winning a tournament (and before you mention comp, comp is often pretty harsh on magic, making it arguably worse than in comp-less warhammer). In fact, even in casual games a magic-light list seems to be at a distinct disadvantage, because when you're using a level 4 against a level 2 suddenly that unreliably phase becomes a lot more reliable. Why do you think that is? Do you think it's a matter of everyone brings a level 4 because you need it to compete against other level 4s? Sort of creates a cycle?
=> I am really not all that sure why people do it. In my experience, it doesn't make as big a difference as people think. Sure, you might get another spell off here and there, but is the extra 200-400 points worth it? I'm not so sure. I think this may be a case of 'everyone says you should, so I do.' I'm not saying that the +2 to +3 is imaginary. I'm just saying that I don't think it's worth it for the points, that the overall magic system means that little boosts like this are like buying an extra lottery ticket, and that people may not realize just how minor the difference is in the end. I've played lots of games with little wizards vs big wizards. Like I said, I let damage spells go through routinely. That means I really only try to stop one spell per phase usually, and a little guy using all his dice usually fares just fine for that. Tell you what, I'll track all my rolls for casting and dispelling vs. my opponents' rolls for a while and put some data to the feeling. It's probably better that I do this once I go back to my little wizards, though. Side comment: The only army where it is mandatory for me to take a big guy is TK, and that's because the whole damn book is built (and point values assigned) based on having several spells per turn go off in support. It's still crazy to try, because the magic system is so inane, but with TK your are forced to do so.
A quick thought re: magic. I personally am finding that the biggest item I miss when not playing with the Level 4 is the additional +2 to dispel when a player has a 'trickle' style magic phase (cast spells on 1-2 dice, use +4 or better to make casts at higher numbers). Luckily, most trickle phases involve some type of missile/damage, and that can be planned for in list design/deployment/movement. When a player has a 'power' style phase (1-2 important spells), the level 1-2's tend to cover that as well as a level 4 can. However, this is currently combined with a strategy that involves engaging quickly (Turn 2-3 for the important fights). Often (if I've done it right), serious pressure is being put on 1 or more enemy mages at that point. Also, of key to this strategy is the fact that the 2 Priests have a Scroll and Cube, respectively. I know you're averse to those items, Sleb (and I'm not suggesting you use them) - but it's a key part in my ability to reliably minimize the effects of my opponents magic phases. If those items did not exist (or I somehow wasn't allowed to take them), I might go for a cheap Slann with the 're-roll first failed dispel attempt' ability. Similar to you, Sleb - I am on a quest to remove the need for offensive magic to work from my regular army builds.
This is something that gets overlooked and dovetails with Sleb's early, mid, late game comment well. If you're playing with an agressive combat list by turn 3-4 you'll likely have neutralized his big bad level 4. Either he is getting pressure from skinks and using all his magic to kill your 70 point units or your scar vet shanked him in combat. Besides, push comes to shove, you just 6 dice Wyssan's. I'm also starting to find that a scar vet with Crown of Command or else Gor Rok are better for Temple Guard blocks than Slann. If all you want is stubborn then that's all it takes. Both make the block more lethal both by adding characters and by not having a Slann take up 2 frontage slots.
That's actually not a bad shout. Things I like about Gor Rok: T6, 2+ AS, re-rolls missed hits (huge for Lizards imo), Stubborn and ItP. Things I don't like about Gor Rok: no Ward save, fairly pricey*, "only" S5. *Well... is he? The thing is, you could build a fairly cheap Scar-Vet with the Stubborn Crown. He won't have the defensive protection (Assuming that he's on foot, anyway) - which throws into doubt whether he goes S7, still won't have the Ward, and won't have any of the other things that Gor Rok has. You could build a fairly cheap Oldblood with the Crown, but even then you'd be tough to get something on a similar level to Gor Rok for the same 185 point cost (Crown, Enchanted Shield... uh Biting Blade or Sword of Striking?) - but, again, he's still missing out on what Gor Rok does, and he still has the same things that I don't like. Alternatively, you could build an expensive Oldblood with all the toys and max out on magic item allowance - but then he's no longer cheap. This is something I may have to consider, although there's two further problems - I hate the Gor Rok model, and I hate painting white... Note that the Slann goes in the second rank and doesn't take up any slots.
I really like gor rok, and I think they did a great job at modelling him! Resilient can't be overlooked either, he can cop a cannon to the face and only take 1 wound. I think he's a great addition to a saurus unit
Yup where I surrender 2 TG supporting attacks for 1 Slann attack. Also if you run 5 wide (like I do) you can't put any of your characters except Chakax in the unit without the Slann suddenly popping to the front rank. It's ridiculous that we have to pay so much to trigger one of his special abilities and then it is kind of annoying to actually use said rules. Sort of the story of the lizardmen. You can play Lizardmen. Woo hoo! But they are cursed. D'oh. But they come with predatory fighter. Woo hoo! Predatory fighter is also cursed. D'oh.