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Tutorial Troglodon: This is why its great

Discussion in 'Lizardmen & Saurian Ancients Discussion' started by Mr Phat, Aug 7, 2013.

  1. OmegaHavoc
    Cold One

    OmegaHavoc Member

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    It's hard to justify a trog when he is competing with a very limited points allotment. If he was special it would be a different story.
     
  2. Drmooreflava
    Saurus

    Drmooreflava New Member

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    You see how I was giving examples of other monster choices and rare units that compete for the same points as the troglodon, the genesis for the comparisons that you dislike. It is an unavoidable reality because of the many similarities that they share. I wasn't comparing something as outrageous as TempleGuard to chameleons or apples to oranges.

    Reliable as in, you can expect it to serve it's purpose. The troglodon isn't particularly good at shooting, it isn't particularly good in close combat, it isn't particularly survivable. The only thing it has going for it are the special rules which are situational unfortunately. But never the less it has it's purpose, a situational purpose but a purpose never the less.

    The reason I claim other choices are more reliable is that, they fill their roles extremely well. Carnosaurs eat stuff, lots and lots of stuffs. Stegadons shoot, are good in combat and survivable. Anceint stegs are expensive but fulfill unique roles and are good in combat and survivable. Bastilidons are cheap and survivable with some support options. Salamanders lay down templates, great chaff units and melt infantry and aren't half bad in combat. With all of the monster options, We've got the rock, paper, scissors and the "fish out of water" of monsters. We know what the rock, paper, scissors can do, and they do it very well. But the fish out of water? He kinda just flops around and isn't "Great" at anything in particular.

    Yes the troglodon and his competitors have different roles and purposes. They just fulfill their purposes better than he fulfills his.
     
  3. Pinktaco
    Skar-Veteran

    Pinktaco Vessel of the Old Ones Staff Member

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    One thing is to make a new awesome unit that just happens to not be equally good compared to other armies similar unit, however with several monsters in the lizardmen army book one do wonder WTF went wrong.

    If it were something like:
    - 75 slaves.
    - A special unit.
    - The Primal Roar (or whatever the name is) not a one-time use only.
    - have the channel special rule as an upgrade, hell maybe put up both the special rules like that for 75 slaves and make people decide for themselves (maybe with the total price reaching what it currently costs, but optional).

    That would've made it a decent support unit that would be compared to the new bastiladon which would serve to buff PF units and not just once. Now it's just.. It doesn't even fit the damn support role.

    - Next time put away the funny mushrooms and not just make an awesome looking unit.
     
  4. Drmooreflava
    Saurus

    Drmooreflava New Member

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    Idk, the troglodon is kind of a butterface.
     
  5. Malebranche
    Saurus

    Malebranche Member

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    I feel like it would have been good if only they'd given the Skoracle something useful.

    level 1 wizard with beasts would be great, at least it could have buffed the Trog into usefulness.

    Or any very situational spell, but coupled with Telepathic Confabulation could make it so much better
     
  6. A Total Newb
    Skink

    A Total Newb New Member

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    Right now the best use of a troglodon is to convert it so a scar-vet is riding it.
     
  7. Caneghem
    Carnasaur

    Caneghem New Member

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    The skink oracle should have given the trog a ward save of some description. Maybe make it 4+ ward flat out. Or even give it the old Engine of the Gods ward bubble, 12 inches 5+ ward from shooting. Then it would have a real multipurpose role.
     
  8. Spiney Norman
    Kroxigor

    Spiney Norman New Member

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    More reliable at doing anything the troglodon can do. The trog does several things, and none of them as well as other units that we have access to. If you're looking for a model that can channel power/dispel dice and act as a mobile arcane vassal then a skink priest with the cloak of feathers is arguably a much better choice. Yes I get that the priest is less resilient than the trog, but that's like comparing tissue paper to printer paper, the trog still isn't very resilient and will go down in a single turn to any concentration of shooting/magic.

    On the other hand if you are looking for a unit that can buff Saurus there are better ways to do it than a single turn, situational boost to an already fairly mediocre special rule. Beast priests can cast wyssans, Slann can cast hand of glory etc.

    And lastly the shooting attack, almost any other unit in the Lizardmen army that can shoot will cause more damage than the troglodon's single shot - almost always miss venom spit.
     
  9. rexti
    Skink

    rexti New Member

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    But here is the thing; Special choises are 50% of your army, potentially. That means that when you consider TGs and terradons and cameos, you can afford to take all of them, they do not directly compete for points the same way the rare choises do, where 1 rare takes up most of your points.


    Special is; you have 100$ in a shop where things cost 20-30$.
    Rare is; you have 50$, in a shop where things cost 35-40$ And a bargain bin full of sallies for 15-20$:p

    if TGs were a rare choise, their value would also go down, or if ripperdactlys were rare. In special, I can't wait to get some rippers out there, but in rare they would be bullied out by better things comparing for the same slot, even if the roles were different. Which is why part of the reason the Trog doesn't work, is that it's rare, whereas in special it would be fine and I would gladly bring one.

    But then again, you can get things that do the same thing better for aprox the same price, which is another problem; jack of all, good at none, is a problem in a highly specialized army where each piece needs to know what it plans to be doing.
     
  10. Caneghem
    Carnasaur

    Caneghem New Member

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    Three razordons can be had for slightly less than the cost of one Troglodon, and the razordons would beat the trog in both a shooting contest and in a CC contest. The initiative 4 on razordons really shocked me when I first saw it, plus they're strength 5 with two attacks and a stomp. They are really no slouch apart from being T4 and 5+ save, but with their initiative they will probably strike first.
     
  11. Lizardmatt
    Troglodon

    Lizardmatt New Member

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    5+ armor, and 5+ handler save. Don't forget that 3 razordons also pack 9 S3 attacks from the handlers. 12 attacks if you upgrade them.

    -Matt
     
  12. Reddogfish
    Saurus

    Reddogfish New Member

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    I completely agree with the majority of what the op said. Absoutely should you not compare different units just because they match in price and army position.

    However. And this is what kills the trog as a viable choice in a list aiming for competitiveness rather than just fun.

    Your argument was that he was a second slann giving greater range and can do many of the same things a priest can.

    But the trog is a large target. It can get shoot over other units. It doesn't fly which would allow it to get into a those hard to reach places a priest with feathers could. If he moves forward to give the slann greater range without moving your temple guard out of position then he will be the most vulnerable unit. And the least capable to deal with that vulnerability. If he stays behind your lines to simply roar. Then he is not extending your range or doing the other things you listed his versatility as. He might be able to fight off chaff units on the flanks and extend range there. But so could a skink priest in a unit of skirmishes. And they would have move versatility. You could use the unit as a sacrifice and run the priest out if you need to while losing only half the points you would if you sacrificed the trog

    As already stated. He has a very specific role. But he has not been equipped appropriately role that role as evidenced by the fact everyone consider him as a poor combat/shooting/support unit. When it is only really a support unit at best.

    I also disagree they should have made his combat or shooting better. Instead give him the ability to reveal hidden units or reveal magic items from targeted characters. That bonus alone while not being that impressive would not have made him an auto include. But would of at least complimented the slanns options with arcane unfitting and other tricks.
     
  13. Dr. Cheesesteak
    Jungle Swarm

    Dr. Cheesesteak New Member

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    Just curious what other units are "necessary", regardless of what slot they take up, if I want the Slann's magic phase to be feared once again? The only thing I can think of is the Trog and Ancient Stegadon (if not taking High Magic or if you intend to forget High spells and replace w/ BRB Lore signature spells?). As for items/disciplines, just the extra channel? Though I think about it, w/ the reroll failed dispell and carry over 1 dispell dice disciplines and Cube of Darkness and Dispell scroll, Lizardmen can have some nasty magic defense, no?
     
  14. Caneghem
    Carnasaur

    Caneghem New Member

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    Yeah, two scroll caddy skink priests, and then take the Discipline that lets you save a dispel dice. Having an extra 2 dice more than your opponent is a great bonus. Harmonic Convergence with the channeling staff seems like a necessity.
     
  15. Walgis
    Ripperdactil

    Walgis New Member

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    the problem with throg/razordons/bastidalons that they are multiu purpous, throg is combat/magic/buffer, razordons are flank saver/shooters, bastidalons are buffers/combat.
    The real problem is that multi purpous units suck at the things they do that is theyre avarage and avarage doesnt work anymore. because salamanders take out ranks faster (thats bigger problem that rederectings small units for razors) Throg sucks in combat and hes buffing is one use only, bastidalon buff sucks and his combat sucks.
    So really theres no point in having them because while theyre multipuspouse they dont do anything good.
    Thats my opinion atleast.
    Thats why i like OnG they have units with only one purpouse and they do it great, biguns savage killing stuff, goblin hordes stoping nasty things, fanatics wrecking havoc in oponents front line etc.
     
  16. Drmooreflava
    Saurus

    Drmooreflava New Member

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    I wouldn't go that far... They are pickable army choices, just not optimal.
     
  17. Smexygor
    Chameleon Skink

    Smexygor New Member

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    I don't find Trog survivable Enough for any role except sitting back and roaring and then dying trying to kill stuff. Too few attacks and armor to make him worth 200pts. No army will let him run ahead unmolested, everyone has something for that.
     
  18. rothgar13
    Saurus

    rothgar13 New Member

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    And even if they don't, the fact remains that a S5/T5/W5 monster with A3 and a 4+ save won't last long in combat against actual fighting infantry (as opposed to a tarpit unit like Goblins or Skavenslaves, which it simply doesn't have the attack output to chew through). All in all, it's a unit that doesn't perform any of its myriad "functions" well enough to merit inclusion.
     
  19. Reddogfish
    Saurus

    Reddogfish New Member

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    Exactly... but as a support unit he is especially bad...

    Being easily targetable and therefore killable... giving up easy VPs while delivering little in the way of returns.

    In short the trog goes against every competitive instinct in an army list and takes up rare points which is probably the tightest section of this book...
     
  20. Andrinor
    Saurus

    Andrinor Member

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    I kind of have to admit this. Most Lizardmen monsters are multi-role or multi-phase units but the Trog isn't quite good enough at any of its roles for me to get excited over it. I almost wonder if it had another ability or if one of the abilities was better and the Trog was too powerful for its points during play testing and it was nerfed at some point before the book was printed.

    Out of the rare choices, the Trog is the odd man out compared to Ancient Steg, EotG, Salamanders and even Razordons (which can be deadly with a good augment).

    But, I don't blame anyone for taking the Trog. It is a neat model and usually we all like big cool looking monsters or else we wouldn't be playing Lizardmen. It isn't optimal but isn't a bad choice. I know I'll run one occasionally just for kicks because I'm not a min/max super competitive player and I think the fluff behind it is cool.
     

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