8th Ed. Wandering deliberations vs Focus of Mystery

[Shadoer]

For me it's a matter if I want to run my Slann in temple guard or not. Wandering Deliberations gives a lot of low cost spells that don't require a lot of dice, meaning less double 6's and happier temple guard. Focus of Myster gives Lore of High Magic that has a few high cost spells that can be switched over for low cost ones, but still will require you to fire a lot of dice at them... meaning less happy temple guard and you should probably run solo.

 

[walach]

I've found the opposite with arcane unforging, for me it has been one of the most useful spells in the lore, getting rid of the banner of the world dragon or the book of Hoeth is absolutely vital.

Surprised on BotWD. Do you use a lot of magic weapons? I've played against it, and honestly, didn't seem worth casting arcane unforging just to pop the banner, as it had zero effect on any of my shooting or combat stuff (not that it mattered anyway as he fled from a charge on them and ran off the board after failing to rally )

Pretty powerful against the book, haven't had to face it yet.

Just always feels there's a more useful spell to cast. Guess it's a pretty polarizing spell; if you're in a game/environment with lots of powerful magic items, it's going to be awesome. If not, then it's relatively poor.

 

[Dreyer]

I've found the opposite with arcane unforging, for me it has been one of the most useful spells in the lore, getting rid of the banner of the world dragon or the book of Hoeth is absolutely vital.

Surprised on BotWD. Do you use a lot of magic weapons? I've played against it, and honestly, didn't seem worth casting arcane unforging just to pop the banner, as it had zero effect on any of my shooting or combat stuff (not that it mattered anyway as he fled from a charge on them and ran off the board after failing to rally )

Pretty powerful against the book, haven't had to face it yet.

Just always feels there's a more useful spell to cast. Guess it's a pretty polarizing spell; if you're in a game/environment with lots of powerful magic items, it's going to be awesome. If not, then it's relatively poor.

Arcane unforging can take a Deamon prince from being an unkillable game destroyer to just being a really tough unit to deal with

 

[Spiney Norman]

I've found the opposite with arcane unforging, for me it has been one of the most useful spells in the lore, getting rid of the banner of the world dragon or the book of Hoeth is absolutely vital.

Surprised on BotWD. Do you use a lot of magic weapons? I've played against it, and honestly, didn't seem worth casting arcane unforging just to pop the banner, as it had zero effect on any of my shooting or combat stuff (not that it mattered anyway as he fled from a charge on them and ran off the board after failing to rally )

Pretty powerful against the book, haven't had to face it yet.

Just always feels there's a more useful spell to cast. Guess it's a pretty polarizing spell; if you're in a game/environment with lots of powerful magic items, it's going to be awesome. If not, then it's relatively poor.

The BotWD works against more than just magical CC attacks, white lions with the banner are very hard to shift, with near invulnerability to magic, a 3+(?) save vs shooting and kicking out enough high strength attacks in CC to wipe the floor with the best of our units. Removing the banner makes them vulnerable to spells like convocation or even searing doom (using those lion cloaks against them).

I think the other thing unforging does is discourage people from basing their army around a single powerful item in the first place if they expect to come up against it.

 

[Rhodium]

I've found the opposite with arcane unforging, for me it has been one of the most useful spells in the lore, getting rid of the banner of the world dragon or the book of Hoeth is absolutely vital.

Surprised on BotWD. Do you use a lot of magic weapons? I've played against it, and honestly, didn't seem worth casting arcane unforging just to pop the banner, as it had zero effect on any of my shooting or combat stuff (not that it mattered anyway as he fled from a charge on them and ran off the board after failing to rally )

Pretty powerful against the book, haven't had to face it yet.

Just always feels there's a more useful spell to cast. Guess it's a pretty polarizing spell; if you're in a game/environment with lots of powerful magic items, it's going to be awesome. If not, then it's relatively poor.

The BotWD works against more than just magical CC attacks, white lions with the banner are very hard to shift, with near invulnerability to magic, a 3+(?) save vs shooting and kicking out enough high strength attacks in CC to wipe the floor with the best of our units. Removing the banner makes them vulnerable to spells like convocation or even searing doom (using those lion cloaks against them).

I think the other thing unforging does is discourage people from basing their army around a single powerful item in the first place if they expect to come up against it.

BotWD doesn't really prohibit lizards from attacking but it is key for what high elves can deliver

A Mage in the unit can both six dice big spells and use things like the forbidden rod to have massive magic phases with relative impunity. So although our attacks aren't magic, if you are getting six diced purple suns or death snipes or finals tran done your throat your army is going thin out quickly
And as said above, white lion block is hard to shift, with 2+ magic and 3+ shooting, if you combat unit has been gutted by spells how are we going to deal with the unit?

 

[RipperDerek]

Charge in a cowboy and issue a challenge (or just direct attacks, as the situation dictates)?

9 attacks from the white lions do less than 1 wound to a cowboy on average.

 

[Rhodium]

Charge in a cowboy and issue a challenge (or just direct attacks, as the situation dictates)?

9 attacks from the white lions do less than 1 wound to a cowboy on average.

Doesn't work if it is white lion standard bearer holding the botwd not the BSB..

Then you will be losing combat and hoping to pass a ld5/6 test

 

[RipperDerek]

The point isn't to get rid of the banner, it's to kill the wizard. The banner is largely irrelevent outside of protecting him.

You're losing combat by 2 on the average (and by 1 the turn you charge), but those breaktests are still favorable (especially if the Slann/BSB/both are anywhere near). Also, if the scar-vet manages to stick it out for just one turn, the entire unit of white lions could very well die to your follow up.

 

[Rhodium]

The point isn't to get rid of the banner, it's to kill the wizard. The banner is largely irrelevent outside of protecting him.

You're losing combat by 2 on the average (and by 1 the turn you charge), but those breaktests are still favorable (especially if the Slann/BSB/both are anywhere near). Also, if the scar-vet manages to stick it out for just one turn, the entire unit of white lions could very well die to your follow up.

Ahh right got you,

Might work but more likely you'll get challenged out by champion turn one, then by the noble bodyguard turn two who can go toe to toe with a scar vet and then after that you might get a shot at the wizard.

But saying that, if you have held up the white lion unit for three turns, that's probably pretty good and you should be able to smash into their flank with a steg or something by then

Although surely you are losing combat by 3 on average and 2 on the charge:

4 attacks, 2 hits, 2 wound plus charge , cold one doesn't get to hit cos it is a challenge and scar vet is I3 presuming predatorial fighter doesn't cause an extra wound, I think there is roughly a 27% chance of an extra wound from PF
So combat res of 2+ 1 = 3

Presuming the champion doesn't wound the vet,
3 ranks, BSB, standard = 5

So if slann BSB is near 96.2%
No slann then 68,1%

Presuming turn two goes the same,
89.8% or 52.3%

So a decent chance but not impossible to fail especially when no slann within 12

 

[RipperDerek]

First of all, cold one does get to get strike in a challenge, and it goes first due to great weapon. The kit I'm assuming is the most durable one, which is Great Weapon + Gambler's Armor + Dawnstone.

Second, Scar-Vet + Cold One averages 2.5 wounds. 9 attacks from white lions do 0.63 wounds on average. 3 ranks + banner + wounds = 4.63 vs 2.5. Average difference is 2.13.

Finally, if the scar-vet gets challenged twice as you describe, the entire unit of white lions might be dead.



The unit of skroxigor in the image do 4.42 wounds on average + 3 ranks + banner + flank + charge = 10.42 combat res. The white lions lose combat by 6 and aren't steadfast.

Of course, if the scar-vet breaks or dies and white lions reform to face the skrox, things could go south very quickly.

 

[Rhodium]

First of all, cold one does get to get strike in a challenge, and it goes first due to great weapon. The kit I'm assuming is the most durable one, which is Great Weapon + Gambler's Armor + Dawnstone.

Second, Scar-Vet + Cold One averages 2.5 wounds. 9 attacks from white lions do 0.63 wounds on average. 3 ranks + banner + wounds = 4.63 vs 2.5. Average difference is 2.13.

Finally, if the scar-vet gets challenged twice as you describe, the entire unit of white lions might be dead.


The unit of skroxigor in the image do 4.42 wounds on average + 3 ranks + banner + flank + charge = 10.42 combat res. The white lions lose combat by 6 and aren't steadfast.

Of course, if the scar-vet breaks or dies and white lions reform to face the skrox, things could go south very quickly.

Yeah I see your point and it is reasonably valid, but it is not a combat I would fancy, but you would, maybe I'm too defensive a player.

BUT

White lions are stubborn so always steadfast, rerollable ld10 they are not going anyway, that skrox unit is in serious trouble if they kill the scar vet and reform.

With a great weapon, you have about a 50% chance of killing the champ with the cold one, then no GW attacks and the scar vet is in trouble on the break test.



I think there is mileage in this tactic but never depend on a white lion unit breaking, they rarely ever do!

 

[RipperDerek]

I actually didn't know they were stubborn. That really sucks

 

[Rhodium]

I actually didn't know they were stubborn. That really sucks

Guess it's good you found out now, rather than after committing a skrox block in their flank in a game!

If they weren't stubborn that skrox block would make them break easy, thats another reason they are such a good deathstar with the banner, need to basically kill them to a man without being minced back or get a lucky ld failure.

 

[RipperDerek]

Turns out a skrox block in the flank will break almost anything. As long as that thing isn't stubborn. >.>

After doing a lot more math, my new plan is to pin them down with a scar-vet while trying to get a unit of 4 Ripperdactyls in the flank or rear. Sadly, even on the flank one of the rippers will die before ever getting to attack, but the remaining 3 should kill an average of 10 white lions in the first round of combat. As they lose ranks the Lions get fewer attacks back, so as long as you can keep them from turning to face, the rippers will eventually mulch the whole unit.

 

[Spid]

If you want to kill a white lion deathstar just smash a saurus horde in there and give them speed of light. Job done. Turns out, speed of light is also a great counter to the big 6's that destroy saurus so badly. Make sure you use your dispel scrolls in his turn right before you charge if he's using high magic to lower his ward save.

Other than that though. Saurus can easily fight white lions with the right buffs/debuffs. As already mentioned, speed of light is great, pha's protection and birona's timewarp are also great spells for the same job from light. Soulblight from death, miasma and enffebling foe from shadow, wyssan's wildform and curse of anraheir from beast, Hand of Glory from high.

Anything that let's you go before the white lions will utterly destroy them. Otherwise make sure you take as few wounds as possible.

Honestly i could easily go either way with my slann. Though i feel Focus of Mystery gives the greatest flexibility. If you end up facing said deathstar you can easily swap spells for light or shadow which gives some of the best spells to fight it.

Or you can go completely without as a few people have suggested. Save the points and buy a skink priest on the side instead, or more saurus or whatever you want.

I think that the fact that there appears to be more or less an equal amount of people leaning towards each of the two and even several people taking neither, that the balance point appears to be just right.

 

[VampTeddy]

...

BUT

White lions are stubborn so always steadfast, rerollable ld10 they are not going anyway, that skrox unit is in serious trouble if they kill the scar vet and reform.

With a great weapon, you have about a 50% chance of killing the champ with the cold one, then no GW attacks and the scar vet is in trouble on the break test.



I think there is mileage in this tactic but never depend on a white lion unit breaking, they rarely ever do!

on a slightly different note, my regular HE opponent would probably fail a ld 10 roll twice in a row, it's his specialty.