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AoS Warhammer Weekly NPE Discussion

Discussion in 'Seraphon Discussion' started by Carnikang, Feb 11, 2021.

  1. Dread Saurian
    Stegadon

    Dread Saurian Well-Known Member

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    As my point was proven about Vince having an unreliable viewpoint on the seraphon we went straight back into theological discussion about out units. Good old lustria online
     
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  2. Nart
    Carnasaur

    Nart Well-Known Member

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    I think, the main strength of trog is how he is a superior arcane vassal. You can give him a Cloak of Feathers, so he is very fast and strong and can stand for several turns, while kroak throwing deliverences through him. This is especially fun in coalesced - you don't need vortex or astrolith to be in range of any spells you want. The problem is, why just not take a scar-vet for about the same point and go deal pure damage. I still want to try this.
     
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  3. Carnikang
    Carnasaur

    Carnikang Well-Known Member

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    Hey, everyone. That chart isn't a graph saying who's best.

    I watched the entirety of that video the chart was seen in, and it's actually fairly reasonable. @Kilvakar 's initial presentation is absolutely not what it is.

    Let's look at it again.

    [​IMG]

    Top vector is High Quality Design, the Bottom vector is Low Quality Design.
    Right Vector is Higher Competitive Power, Left is Lower Competitive Power.

    This isn't a ranking system. It's a graph placing how well designed books can be good, middling, OR BAD. While the same can be said of Badly designed books (KO being the biggest example of this. We all remember when they were first released and the slew of needed clarifications and rewordings, Triumphs and Garrison being an integral part of the book, etc.)


    Read the chart and take in the information. You dont have to agree with it, but it is something to consider.
     
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  4. Kilvakar
    Carnasaur

    Kilvakar Well-Known Member

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    I appreciate the reply. Just to clarify my position on a few things:

    1: I'm not arguing that needing support to perform well is bad, just pointing out that other armies have units that can do the same or better than ours unsupported. Our army offsets this by everything being quite inexpensive points-wise overall, but it certainly makes our stuff easy to pick apart by skilled players. I totally understand that pretty much everything needs support in our army and I'm fine with that, but that's still a weakness, so please don't take my pointing it out as hating on our army.

    2: I wasn't saying that any of those units are bad, just pointing out their weaknesses, and criticism doesn't mean you hate something. I like using Saurus Knights, Warriors, Carnosaurs, etc. I'm just pointing out their shortcomings from my own experience.

    3: I'm no expert at MathHammer, so everything here is based solely on my personal experience and not charts and theory-crafting. So I fully recognize that this is a completely subjective viewpoint and probably not accurate to what many, or even most, people have encountered in their own games.

    To answer some of the specific points you made:

    Guard are very tanky, and 2 wounds definitely means they stick around reasonably well. I never said they were a bad unit, I bring them pretty much every time I bring any Slann. I have just never had good results in combat with them, mostly due to the fact that they are bunched around a Slann and not trying to get straight into combat. Maybe if I brought them as a full-sized unit and threw them straight into the enemy I'd have different results. I'll have to try that sometime :)

    I was not as detailed here as I wanted to be. Even with the Starpriest's buff, you're looking for mortals on 6's to wound, and their attack profiles are pretty inaccurate, so while the mortals *definitely* help out big time, they still don't do too well at hitting things to begin with and if you have any of those defenses I mentioned previously their damage output is much, much lower than the projected output against a base 4+ save with no modifiers. I still said that Knights are good, I've used them and they have done well for me sometimes, but also done very poorly other times. They're very "swingy" in my experience.

    My personal problem with Saurus Warriors is that they seem to need more support than anything else in order to do well. Again, I realize that they need support, but it seems to me that they need too much. And as others have said, it really doesn't seem to match up well with the idea of them being these big, tough, savage warriors able to ferociously rip through their enemy's ranks. But in my games, unless I take then in Sunclaw, get the Starpriest buff, get at least a +1 to hit, and get the Hand of Glory spell off on them, they just don't do that much damage. Of course, damage isn't everything, and like I said they tarpit well, but I really feel that our Saurus should be a little bit better in combat.

    You're absolutely right. I was just answering your question as to why a lot of people don't like Carnosaurs. As I said, I've used them many times, but since my opponents know their potential, and since AoS is such a shooting/magic meta right now, My Carnosaurs are almost always the focus of the attack. So their fragility is still a mark against them. But I actually do like using them :)

    Maybe I'm just not good at using Terradons then, lol! I always seem to have the same problem as I do with Carnosaurs. My opponent knows they're going to mortal wound bomb something important, so they get shot down first. And regardless of their awesome speed and damage output, they still die to a stiff breeze. And if that breeze blows your way before you are able to get them where they're needed, they're toast. The only time I've had them do good is when I brought a unit of 3 in a TL list, because my opponent just didn't want to shoot at them when I had Kroak and a bunch of dinosaurs on the field, and since they were an MSU they were a much lower threat priority.

    I'm sorry if my sentence was poorly written, I said Salamanders are good, and then switched to Kroxigors and said they're also good they just need that +1 to hit buff. I've had good games with both, although for some reason my Salamanders always seem to roll badly, lol!

    Absolutely not! And I'm sorry if it came across this way. I personally don't think saying that I want an extra -1 rend on this unit, or a slightly better attack profile on another, or a bit better durability on our most fragile units is wanting them to be broken. I hate playing against "point-and-click" armies, and that's really the essence of what NPE is. Once again, I totally understand our reliance on synergies. And while I definitely do wish that we didn't rely *entirely* on synergies for most things to do well, I understand it's the core of our army design and I think it does work very well overall.

    I will always say that I wish we had combat heroes that could stand on their own without needing 1-2 CP and a spell to buff them first. And I also would like it if our battleline was a bit less gimmicky, but that's just my personal opinion. It doesn't mean that I love playing Seraphon any less, because they'll always be my favorite and main army :)

    Sorry bro, couldn't help it :p
     
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  5. Carnikang
    Carnasaur

    Carnikang Well-Known Member

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    The Sweet spot specifically refers to Books he thinks are Well Designed and Middling. That's it. That's not a terrible place to be.

    These aren't calling out power. Where exactly the Seraphon book lands (so long as it lands in the Right end closer to the edge than MOST others, it's fine. It is a well designed and powerful book though. That cannot be denied, which is what the graph was used to talk about.
     
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  6. Carnikang
    Carnasaur

    Carnikang Well-Known Member

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    ANYWAY, to get back into NPE, now that we have a lot for the warscrolls for the new Lumineth, DoK have been out for some time, and we've had time to get more Tournament results overall....

    What do we think will happen in the near future? Lumineth is looks scary rough for lower to middling armies, and they're getting a LOT of tools that could give us a hard time. Are the elves going to eclipse all other races when it comes to topping charts and creating negative experiences?
     
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  7. Putzfrau
    Skar-Veteran

    Putzfrau Well-Known Member

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    I think lumineth will quickly become a a common unfun playing experience. They simply have so many units with a rule here or there that just fundamentally ignores a part of the game.
     
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  8. LordBaconBane
    Ripperdactil

    LordBaconBane Well-Known Member

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    *Insert Thanos inevitable quote here*
     
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  9. Carnikang
    Carnasaur

    Carnikang Well-Known Member

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    I would have to agree. Until the battletome is in hand we won't know for sure, but all the revels, the scrolls, and the leaks all seem to line up. The World Banner has truly heralded the return of the High Elves.
    I personally will have to figure a way out to not make play experience bad... as I want to pick up the Harukan part of the army.


    On that note: Sev's Scour ability is useful for clearing some faction terrain scrolls away, but it really feels bad to have your toys just made useless by the enemy army.
     
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  10. Kilvakar
    Carnasaur

    Kilvakar Well-Known Member

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    I've said several times that I don't think that the Lumineth are going to be game-breakingly OP to the point where they have no counters, but GW really is building them up to have no real weaknesses either, other than not being able to take everything in a single list. I mentioned this elsewhere, but the Lumineth rules are filled with things that have little to no counter-play. Just a bunch of "feels bad" buttons to push and give your opponent a hard time. Some are annoying, others are downright crippling. But even on Reddit where I've seen people complaining about Seraphon for a long time everyone's switching to how much they hate playing against Lumineth just for the sheer amount of un-fun rules they have. When I asked one of my friends who I play on TTS whether he'd be testing out Lumineth, he straight up said "F- those OP Elves!" lol!

    DoK I think is going to be strong, and very flexible with their new options, but not what I would call blatantly OP.

    I'll definitely be curious to see what they do with Umbraneth whenever they get around to those guys...
     
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  11. ArtoriusaurusRex
    Temple Guard

    ArtoriusaurusRex Well-Known Member

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    I might be in the minority here, and I don't necessarily have the experience to back this up, but I don't think all this new Lumineth stuff is oh so scary as some people are saying.

    Some is quite good. A fair bit is...kinda meh?

    And the army on the whole might be being *annoying* to fight, but I don't think it has what it takes to be consistently winning tournaments or anything.


    It's slow. It's expensive. One the aetherquartz is spent, it's fragile. Lots of super pricey 1w models with weak saves. The new fast Hurakan stuff is made of paper-mache and has no bite. Even battleshock slams them once the Cathallars are dead.


    As far as the NPE around them, I can believe it being possibly true. The MW output alone would be pretty feelbad to an average player. Let alone the sheer magical dominance.

    But most of the people I know who complain about it have never played vs Lumineth. They just complain that Lumineth look OP in a couple batreps they saw on Youtube or something.
     
  12. Dread Saurian
    Stegadon

    Dread Saurian Well-Known Member

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    Solution more skinks
     
  13. Carnikang
    Carnasaur

    Carnikang Well-Known Member

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    I dont disagree, but I cannot help but think of the many many theoreticals that come with the tools they're being given. One such being enhanced Command Ability use for free/generation of Command Points. The Vanari heros don't seem to have to many CAs, so the generic ones are going to be commonly used. The spell lore for the Wind is also fairly strong if what has been shown is truly what they get. It's quite the toolbox that just seems to be full of frustrating wrenches and screwdrivers.

    As it stands now, they're pretty good, and the archers are the only thing I know most people complain about. But with what's being added, those who complain will have much more choice of what they may want to target, whilst those who see them in a rival position will be wary of. I really want to see the full points list so that we can toy with army building, including the two new subfactions presented.
     
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  14. Putzfrau
    Skar-Veteran

    Putzfrau Well-Known Member

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    Piling in 6" and not needing to go towards the closest is an insane rule.

    The loreseeker lone agent rule is ridiculous. They just have so many rules that give them access to so much just general shenanigans. Ahhh it'll be so annoying haha.
     
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  15. erians
    Razordon

    erians Active Member

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    Yeah, if I played LRL I don't think I would add anything new at all to my lists. Some of the new stuff is good but LRL lists are already so tight on points its gonna be hard to fit anything new in. Tec-less lists are better now for sure, but I still fear Teclis lists far more than any other variation and they are probably gonna look 95-100% the same. The real scary stuff is that Teclis now has a heal and a teleport.....Maybe loreseekers are gonna cause trouble but that's about it.

    Yeah to me there are only 2 things that causes NPE: overpowered stuff and things that keeps you from playing the game, which LRL has in spades (Seraphon have their fare share too). They can:
    - Destroy faction terrain
    - Reduce/stop pile-ins
    - Stop you from moving, running, charging, and/or attacking
    - Stop you from using CA's
    - Block units from benefiting from CA's
    - Doubling your CP costs

    They are basically the AoS version of MTG Blue control, and some of their stuff is about as fun to play against as getting non-stop Counter-Spelled. I'm not worried about them being overpowered, because I don't think they are going to be better than DoT/KO/Seraphon but I fear they are going to be frustrating or boring to face.
     
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  16. Nart
    Carnasaur

    Nart Well-Known Member

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    Funny enough, but they are probably not very pleasant to play as a faction too, since they don't have much difference in builds and, since they are not actually Tier S faction, newer players can easily screw everything up - break shining company, chose wrong casts, lose models in battleshock, go out of importnant auras, etc.
     
  17. Tyranitar
    Terradon

    Tyranitar Well-Known Member

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    I think the biggest npe of the lumineth will be them taking 3 hours turns because every single unit has more special rules than some armies do in their entirety...
     
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  18. Dread Saurian
    Stegadon

    Dread Saurian Well-Known Member

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    I wonder when they're gonna obliterate the double turn? A lot of negative play imho comes from that
     
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  19. Putzfrau
    Skar-Veteran

    Putzfrau Well-Known Member

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    I think this is pretty spot on.
     
  20. Carnikang
    Carnasaur

    Carnikang Well-Known Member

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    Not really. It's just remembered bad experiences. There are plenty of good ones that come from it too, but they're not as easily registered.

    I'd also be sad to see it go. The game could become even more binary if it does, and likely more NPE when there is nothing to be done about a mechanic you have no ability to participate in. That is just an opinion of mine though.
     

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