8th Ed. What do you want for new Lizzies

So my suggestions are in line with the relative power level of the new Warriors of Chaos book. Many things listed might incur an increase in points...

Part 1 - General Army stuff and Lords and Heroes

Terrain shifting Lore of the Old Ones would be excellent. Especially if things like impassable volcanoes are involved! A lore based on terrain manipulation/earthquakes would be really interesting and play a big role in the movement phase, which is a nice phase to control. A battle with a Slann with the Lore of the Old Ones will leave a mark on the battlefield, as new hills, pits, and jagged rocks appear, ravaging foe and landscape alike.

Spawnings: Will tie in to Oldbloods/Scarvets/skink chiefs and saurus/skinks.

Slann: I could definitely see Cupped Hands going away, but hopefully there will be some new in-built way for Slann to avoid miscasting or lessen its effects (above and beyond normal magic items/existing disciplines). Since Warriors lost the Infernal Puppet and Black Tongue, I'd be surprised if cupped hands makes the cut. I've always thought it would be cool if Slann got IF on two or more sixes, but only miscast on 3 or more sixes.

Slann starts at level 4, can be upgraded to level 5. No harm in dreaming big!

Some upgrade which allows the Slann to choose spells from up to two lores. If there isn't a Lore of the Old Ones, then this would be nice instead (or in addition). Maybe the default choice you make with Slann is either Loremaster of a single lore, or you choose spells from up to two books.

Oldblood/Scarvet - Ancient Tactics - A Saurus Oldblood or Scarvet, when joined to a unit composed entirely of saurus warriors/cold one cav/other saurus with the SAME spawning as his own, conveys the following benefits to the unit. (similar to tomb kings, but unit must match character's spawing)

Spawning A: Use Oldblood/Scarvet weapon skill
Spawning B: Use Oldblood/Scarvet Initiative
Spawning C: +2 A/+1 A
Spawning D: +2 S/+1 S
Spawning E: +2 T/+1 T
Spawning F: +2 M/+1 M

So this change might bump up the points for Oldbloods and Scarvets slightly, and also the spawnings would have a per model cost for the units. But how awesome this would be! Obviously it could be other things besides straight stat boosts, but the general idea is there. This gives a lot of freedom to take many different kinds of saurus of different spawnings, and would make a pretty viable alternative to the Slann.

Skink Priest - More lores would help. I think the idea of the Slann casting through the skink priest should be expanded to include all spell types. Maybe the #6 spell of the Lore of the Old ones is an ultra-devastating radial damage attack that you would obviously not want to cast centered on your Slann, but through a kamikaze flying skink priest. Hopefully the cloak of feathers remains as is.

EotG - The portent of warding is always in effect, at a 5+, 12".

Powers:
Focused warding - The portent of warding is strengthened to 4+, 18" until the start of the next magic phase.

Planar rift - One use only. The engine and any units within 6 inches of the engine become ethereal until the start of the next magic phase. While planar rift is active however, the portent of warding disappears completely.

Arcane Configuration - The skink priest riding the Engine of the Gods adds D3 to each of his casting rolls and D3 to his dispel rolls until the start of the next magic phase.

Burning Alignment - Same as before, change range to 2D6+3.

Blood of the Stegadon - The skink priest siphons some of the life force of the ancient stegadon to give to his comrades on the battlefield. The ancient stegadon carrying the Engine immediately suffers D3 wounds with no saves allowed. This augment can target any friendly unit within 12", and bestows upon them +1T for the rest of the game. This power cannot be used to raise the target unit's toughness above 6. Characters in units are affected, but only to a maximum toughness of 6.

So the EotG would likely stay 290 points. These new powers make it a force to be reckoned with, and it can be very versatile. The fact that it can create a small ethereal bubble means this becomes problematic


Skink Chief - Innate 6+ dodge save that is a ward save which can combine with other ward saves as normal.
Master of poisons - All of the skink chief's non-magical weapons have the poison 5+ rule. Additionally, when joined to skink units, all skinks in that unit receive the poisoned attacks special rule for their melee attacks. If the unit already has poisoned melee attacks, their melee attacks poison on a 5+ instead. But remember, you must be able to normally hit your target on a 5+ for this to work.

Or... you could also do the spawnings thing with the chief and skinks, giving them bonuses based on which spawning. Maybe something that boosts ballistic skill

 

And part 2...

Core:

Saurus - Set to 10 points, don't come with shield. Can choose to trade handweapons for spears at no cost. Add shield for 1 point. Halberds 2 points. Greatweapons 3 points.

Also there will be spawnings at a per-model cost. These might have subtle effects that can be boosted by having the appropriate OB/SV in the unit. 10 pts per command.

Skinks - 5 points. Come with hand weapon, shield, blowpipes. Can trade blowpipes and hand weapon for skink javelins for 1 extra point. Skink javelins used in close combat count as hand weapons with the poisoned attacks special rule, and can be thrown as normal javelins. 5 points per command. Still able to take kroxigor as before.

Skrox - Mixed rank fighting - The skinks are so relatively small that they can swarm around the lumbering kroxigor without causing them difficulty. Kroxigors count as fighting in the front rank, despite being placed in the second rank. This means they can stomp! Also means they are not making supporting attacks, but are instead fighting as normal. It also means they can be attacked, however infantry models suffer a -1 to hit the kroxigors due to the multitude of skinks scampering around. Any skinks placed behind the kroxigors may make a supporting attack, as they are considered to be in the second rank during combat. For all other purposes, treat the ranks as you would normally (rank bonus, steadfast, etc).

Skink skirmishers - These seem great, no changing needed! Maybe spawnings...

Special:

Swarms (become special) - Unit size 1. Same rules as before, but can only take a single base per unit, plus Roiling Swarms rule.

Roiling Swarms - At the beginning of each lizardmen magic phase, roll a D6 for each swarm base remaining on the table. On a roll of a 6, the player may place a new swarm base at least 1 inch from the swarm which successfully rolled a 6. Any swarm bases within 12 inches of a skink priest may add +1 to this roll. If the swarm cannot be placed for any reason, you simply do not place one and proceed as normal. For victory points purposes, only score victory points for casualties if fewer swarm bases remain on the table at the end of the game than at the start.

The reasoning with the swarms being this way is that they can be a problem if you don't deal with them early, much like any other pest. This can force the enemy to choose between spending early shooting dealing with the threat or waiting for potentially multiplying swarms. This rule also leads to the practice of skink priests in skink bunker units surrounded by swarms, which is a very fluffy image in my mind. Maybe skinks get an innate bound spell that they can cast on a 5+, which grants an additional roll for Roiling Swarms to swarms within 12 inches. Farm those swarms!

Chameleon Skinks - These seem like they don't need changing. I love them, and they already have a lot going for them. For fluff completeness, maybe they come from their own special spawning pool, (so you don't get to take additional spawning stuff).

Terradon Riders - Ok, apart from the skink riders being able to take spawnings...

Riders now carry skink javelins, light armor, and shields. As above, they have poisoned melee attacks with the skink javelins. Skink brave has extra attack, not extra BS.

Terradons go to strength 5, toughness 4, wounds 3, initiative 3, attacks 2. They are still monstrous cav, and wind up with a total armor save of 4+.

Drop rocks, Forest Strider - Same as before.

Hit and Run - If a unit of Terradon riders has already dropped rocks for the game, they may make a special attack against a unit they have just passed over. For each Terradon and rider in the unit, you may roll one attack against a nominated model in the enemy unit passed over. Placement in the unit is no issue. Each terradon and skink rider makes a single attack against the target, who rolls as normal to defend against it using saves, etc. Then the target may make a single attack back at the terradon rider who just struck in combat. If the same target is attacked multiple times, the target may make counterattacks for each attacking terradon rider. All of these attacks are considered to be made simultaneously, so order of roll does not matter.

I guess they'd go up to around 45-50 points. They are a priority target for the opponent, because of the potential for them to fly by and bust up a mage or something else fragile hiding in a unit.

Temple Guard - Same everything as now, but add in some kind of special spawning for TG only that they each must take. It could be something as simple as, "for every wound a Slann in a unit of temple guard has suffered, the temple guard add 1 attack to their profile". This spawning can be taken on a scar vet to make the unit cold-blooded 4d6 (instead of 3d6), or on an oldblood the unit becomes unbreakable.

Cold One Cav - Gain light armor and razor spears. Razor spears have the armor piercing special rule. Can take spawnings. Spawnings would cost more on these, and possibly be more limited.

Kroxigor - Strength 5 base, great weapons. Only other difference is how they work in mixed rank fighting.

Stegadons/ancient stegadons - Around 50 points cheaper each, to reflect the generalized lower pricing of monsters these days. Look at the Chimera... Ancient stegadon can now take the warspear for 40 points, this is independent of skink chief rider. It's also no longer a magic item, so attacks are not magical. Maybe for 30 points you can take a warspear on a regular stegadon?

Salamanders - Fine as is, though I'm sure march and fire will go away. They will still be awesome.

Razordons - mostly the same, but add this rule and make them 100 points each.

Barbed darts - If a unit suffers one or more hits from razordon darts, then until the end of its next movement phase it must take care not to cause more serious injury due to the lodged projectiles. If the unit makes anything OTHER THAN a normal move, it suffers the following effect. The unit takes 2d6 strength 4 hits with no armor saves allowed. A unit hit by a stand and shoot reaction from the razordons will suffer this effect immediately, directly after wounds for the normal stand and shoot have been determined.

On a stand and shoot reaction, roll a single artillery die for each razordon. It will fire the number of shots x2. If a misfire is rolled, treat the result as a 10 (x2), then remove d3 x 2 handlers.

 

you want too much, i think
i think the only very good things we actually have (slann and salamanders) will be nerfed. But i'm quite optimist about the rest of the army: GW is trying to make balanced armies, so lizardmen can't be so bad

 

Yeah, my ideas were more about bringing Lizardmen up to Chaos Warrior level, if we are assuming that level of power. I'd be happy with just some of those things.

Instead, I think the new models they release for us (if any) will be the most powerful, thus requiring us to buy more models. This would be fine too!

My most desired change would be a return of the spawnings, with unit buffs for having OB/SV in units of the same spawning.

And of course our own lore.

Slann will lose cupped hands, almost a guarantee. Probably no more becalming or free power dice too, I just hope they add new interesting things that still set the Slann apart from other level 4's.

 

Some really interesting ideas there, Caneghem. I like your view on Spawnings and our heroes and lords having My Will Be Done kind of effect (giving their WS to the troops). +2 to any stat is probably too much, though. If the rest of your ideas would come to effect, even I, as a Lizardmen player, would be crying "OP cheese!", but it was a fun read.

 

All I want is for them to bring back spawnings for units and characters and to make more options for our Scar Vets and Oldbloods.. I feel like we can give them the most expensive and intricate builds out there but they are still struggling against some of the common lords and heroes out there.. "I'm sorry, but my Oldblood has been alive and making war 8,000 years longer than your Dwarf Lord, so do you mind 'dumbing' your character down a bit??"

 

we can say something similar about slanns...

 

honestly I think Slanns are way cheap for what they do.. Why else does almost every 'competitive' list feature one? I think that they should be a little better considering their ancient powers (but only Kroak and Mazdumundi, if you take a look at the 7th edition book and at the Slann generations is talks about how the 5th generation are more active, the other generations are more powerful but more concerned with the transformation of the world and such, so IMO we should only be aloud to take gen 4 and 5 Slanns but have rules for the other generations for large battles and campaigns But not too many here would agree with me about limiting your guys' Slanns...). Really I think that the Slann should cost more points for how controlling they can be, or the 'free' powers they get come from a smaller, less powerful list of abilities and then they have to pay (a good amount of points) for free power dice and becalming... I love those abilities, but they just seem waaaaay too good for their cost I just don't like when people scream CHEESE every time they face a Lizardman army.. We only have two options for cool Lords and no one likes either of them

 

The current meta is really that almost all armies have to bring a level 3 or lvl 4 wizard just to keep up. We however don't really have much choice so it needs to be the slann.

 

That is definitely true! Though I wish it wasn't My Oldblood-led army has a very challenging time thanks to the high amount of lvl 4 wizards I encounter -.- You just made me realize, the other thing that I want is for the cube to cost 50 points and stop the magic phase on a 3+ or 2+ That would make running an Oldblood a little easier!

 

I've often thought about using an Oldblood build backed up by 3,4 or 5 level 1 Skink Priests carrying a combination of Dispel Scroll/Cube of Darkness/Scroll of Shielding/Channeling Staff/Scroll of Leeching/Diadem of Power and a sprinkling of MR items to help in the magic phase. If you kept it to 475 points or less you can still fit in a decent Scar-Vet at 2.5k, and you should have enough dispel dice generation and one-shot items to see you through the worst of magic phases. You have to be extremely careful about what you choose to dispel, though, as you'd be using an overwhelming amount of dice to do it due to the only +1, but again you'd be generating a fair few dice anyway.

I'd do something like:

Priest (Dispel Scroll)
Priest (Cube of Darkness)
Priest (Diadem)
Priest (Scroll of Shielding)
Priest (Channelling Staff, Obsidian Amulet).

So that's 2 chances to stop a spell outright, one chance to get a 4+ ward, one 5+ ward all the time for one unit, +2 dispel dice each phase, and 5 channeling attempts (with one on 1/3).

Then once the one-shots have been used up, you can turn your cheap Priests into the Warhammer equivalent of fire-and-forget weapons by trying to 6-dice Comet/Chain Lightning until it IFs.

Its risky, though, and you wouldn't have nearly as much buffing power in your own phase, which I think Lizardmen need more than anything else, but it could be a lot of fun to play. Although you could really infuriate your opponent and just try 2 or 3 dicing Iceshard Blizzard 5 times each phase. One of them will eventually get through!

 

Oh god, skink chiefs would at last be useful in melee! Also i can imagine the feeling when your terradon grabs a pesky mage, lets it to struggle a bit and then rips him to pieces and spills the gore onto the helpless troops underneath.

 

Stuff I would like to see (ie. Wish List). Even half of this would make me happy, since they probably won't do all of it:

1) A lesser choice of high-ish Level Wizard, so that a Slann isn't such a default necessary choice. Maybe an elite Skink Priest, or just a lesser Slann, like some have said.

2) MOAR DINOSAURS!!- I don't even care what uses they have. I just want newer, cool minis to look at that are dinosaurs . Possible inclusions: smaller Carnosaurs, larger Pterosaurs, Struthiomimus, Stegosaurs, Kentrosaurs, Hadrosaurs, Utahraptors (Think Giant Raptors), etc.

3) Razordons & Salamanders to be different costs, so that Sallies aren't the default. I would accept Salamanders being more pricey, because they're almost TOO good for what they can accomplish. It gives me "Obviously-Unbalanced Unit Guilt", something with which I am familiar due to also playing Dark Elves and their Hydra. By contrast, Razordons could also gain some boosts to be more "worth it", like enhanced Combat power or Toughness.

4) The Slann Abilities to cost more accurately to what they can accomplish. The "Extra Power Dice" thing is almost over-the-top good, especially considering it costs what the others do. It seems a bit unfair, plus makes the Slann TOO much of a default option.

5) Skink Fast Cavalry.

6) New Models: Saurus Cavalry (I mean, look at the Dark Elves. Every Lizardmen player understands this), Chameleon Skinks, Salamanders & Terradon Riders (mainly to make them plastic and better- I hate the newer Terradons).

7) Another Elite Centerpiece Model: EVERY army gets this in this edition. Lizards were almost first with the Stegadon, but now I'm greedy and want more. I expect them to make a new Slann Multi-Model and/or a Carnosaur (to match the size of other Large Monsters in this edition), but my ideal thing is something I call a Brontodon- almost a goofy-big super-dinosaur with a ton of Skinks on it and Chaos Mammoth-y stats.

8) Kroxigor to boost Strength or Toughness, or to drop cost. They need a little boost, since they're almost the weakest Monstrous Infantry out there, all things considered.

9) Monstrous Cavalry- Lizardmen are practically DESIGNED for this sort of thing- either Saurus or Kroxigor on top of Megalosaurus-sized carnosaurs. Though this has been a common Lizard-wish thing for as long as I've been playing the game.

10) Sacred Spawnings make a comeback- I thought these were really neat and great for "fluff" armies- stuff like Strider abilities, extra Armour, Initiative, Weapon Skill, etc. would be neat to have. That "Mark of the Old Ones" allowing D3 Re-Rolls per game was swell, also.

 

I want something more useful than stegs. they are magnets for all things bad and get blown to crap instantly.