1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

8th Ed. What is the very best Army Book lore of magic?

Discussion in 'Other Armies Discussion' started by NIGHTBRINGER, Jun 16, 2021.

  1. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

    Messages:
    57,075
    Likes Received:
    176,254
    Trophy Points:
    113
    The purpose of this thread is to explore the relative merits of the various army book lores of magic. For this thread, let us ignore the 8 BRB lores of magic, End Times stuff, Storm of Magic, etc. A discussion of the best BRB lores is best left for another thread.

    So the question is simple, of all the racial magic lores found specifically in army books, which one is the greatest?
    • what makes it so powerful?
    • does it have any weaknesses?
    • how do you rate the specific spells in the lore?
    • how do you rate the lore attribute?
    • how is it best used? (and best countered)
    • etc.
    • etc.

    In the event that a lore exists in multiple army books but with different lore attributes (for example, the Lore of High Magic has different lore attributes when taken in a High Elves, Lizardmen or Wood Elves army), specify which version is the best.

    For the purposes of choosing your top lore, consider the lore (spells + lore attribute) itself and not other magical boosts that the army might possess (i.e. in the case of the Lore of Nehekhara, only consider its spells and lore attribute and not the fact that the Tomb Kings can field a Casket of Souls or Hierotitan to support it).
     
  2. Lizards of Renown
    Slann

    Lizards of Renown Herald of Creation

    Messages:
    9,729
    Likes Received:
    24,256
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Interesting... I'll need to do some brushing up I think :)
     
  3. Cptn Timmy
    Cold One

    Cptn Timmy Active Member

    Messages:
    103
    Likes Received:
    202
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Without overthinking this too much I think I have made my decision. I am ignoring the lizardman high magic because I think its strength lies in the ability to swap spells out for your slaan, and the high elf one is so powerful because it perfectly compliments elves. I also would throw some considerations towards the ogres Lore of the Great Maw.

    That being said, while trying to ignore who is casting the spells, and the synergy within an army i have chosen the Lore of Nurgle from the WOC book.
    I think that this lore could be put on an any caster in any army and be a powerful and useful one.

    Let's start with the lore attribute; +1 T and W is huge for any caster because it adds to their survivability let alone if they are kitted out for combat. Yes some games it will not pay off but conversely some games it will pay off 3 to 4 times. (T8 W7 demon prince. I like it :). But even on say an archmage or an orc shaman paired with a 4 ++ it would be very hard to remove them from the game.)

    Now ill discuss its utility. 1 area of effect bubble, 2 debuffs, 2 or 3 buffs, 1 magic missiles, 1 direct damage, 1 magical vortex.
    This lore has something for everything. The synergies within the lore are even pronounced. Having multiple buffs or debuffs makes your enemy have to pick their poison allowing you to get one of them off in an even dice situation. And if you ever get free reign on your dice you can combo a few spells together lowering a units toughness and then forcing them to take toughness tests is a whole lot of fun.

    For weaknesses I think I would say that not having a true #6 spell with no saves makes it weaker ( but in my personal opinion I actually rate that as a bonus)
    Also if you are matched up against high toughness armies nurgles utility can be diminished and lastly if you are only rolling for 4 spells and the lore you can get caught with not having the right variety or redundancy.

    I will now rate the spells in my own opinion from worst to first:

    Signature spell: stream of corruption is very situational and really only useful on a mobile caster. Can be deadly in the right hands though.

    #2 blades of putrefaction: another spell that is situationally excellent and decent at all times. Could be deadly in the right hands.

    #3 Plague Wind. Yes it is a vortex and yes it should destroy low T knights but any time I've ever actually gotten it off the unit either rolled particularly well or had good magic res. I think that magic resistance being able to stop it makes it quite weak. And it cannot deal with high toughness enemies.

    #4 miasma of pestilence. A decent debuff that can swing a combat just like any of the other miasma
    Spells in other lores. Has the added benefit of affecting every unit in contact with the casted upon unit which makes it valuable for when you are outnumbered.

    #5 rancid visitations: D6 St5 hits. Yes please. T test or it just keeps hitting you? Yes please. Can be paired with another spell to make it extremely hard to pass that T test. Heck yeah. An added bonus is it can be cast whe your caster is in combat. This spell offers crowd control in great circumstances and chaff control in any circumstances.

    #6 fleshy abundance: i had a tough time deciding which spell i liked more for the top spot. Gives a unit regen 5+ and can be bubbled to affect all units within 18"! Whats not to like? Can swing a battle on its own.

    #7 curse of the leper: I ultimately chose this to be the best spell by thinking if I only got to choose one spell from this lore which would it be. It is a buff and a hex and it synergizes with the rest of the lore. I would say the only weakness to this spell is that whenever I roll a d3 it comes up as a 1. :eek:

    So there you have it. I think the strength of Nurgle comes from its reliability and utility. Some lores have one or two spells that are considerably more dangerous, lore of slaanesh for example, but the lore of nurgle, like its grandfather, is always there for you when you need it and always dangerous.
    Let me know what you think!
     
    Knoffles and NIGHTBRINGER like this.
  4. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

    Messages:
    57,075
    Likes Received:
    176,254
    Trophy Points:
    113
    An excellent choice @Cptn Timmy and a great write up!

    Those are my favourite spells in the lore of Nurgle as well and I fully agree with your top choice. Curse of the Leper is a brilliant spell that is both impactful and highly versatile. And as you said, it pairs very well with Rancid Visitations.

    It's a very scary lore attribute. Sure it might not go off, but when it does, it is devastating. The MoN DP is already notoriously feared, but one or two boosts from the lore attribute and he is borderline unkillable.


    The Lore of Slaanesh vs. the Lore of Nurgle debate is always a fun one. Both are great lores in my opinion (unlike the Lore of Tzeentch which I am not a fan of), and both lores have their proponents.

    I've always preferred the lore of Slaanesh myself, but not because I necessarily rate it better, but because it is so devious and nuanced. The lore of Slaanesh has more dud spells as compared to Nurgle, but as you mentioned, it also has more potent spells. With the lore of Slaanesh you really want to ensure that you grab spells 1, 3 and 6. Then you can choose the others based on what army you are facing. Whenever I field the lore of Slaanesh I always ensure that my level 4 wizard has Chaos Familiar so that I get to roll for 5 spells (all but guaranteeing that I get the spells I want).

    I think the LoN is a bit more user friendly and easier to implement, while the LoS can be taken to extreme heights in the hands of an extremely skilled general. Both are fantastic lores. (I'm also a bit biased because I like Slaanesh significantly more than Nurgle :p).

    The LoS is probably my 2nd favourite army book lore, and I'll probably have to give it a short write up after I get around to discussing what I personally feel is the very best army book lore.
     
    Cptn Timmy and Lizards of Renown like this.
  5. Lizards of Renown
    Slann

    Lizards of Renown Herald of Creation

    Messages:
    9,729
    Likes Received:
    24,256
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Right, so I re-read all of my army books magic lores.

    So, fully agreed on Nurgle being one of the top lores.

    Slaneesh is definitely up there, but it has several weak spells so I don't think it's tops. Could be used to very good effect.

    The other two which are REALLY fearsome, considering also the armies that they are attached to are the Skaven and Chaos Dwarf lores.

    With Skaven specifically, I think this might be a contender for the top spot. This is the Lore of Ruin.

    It has some VERY good offensive spells which are cheap. An awesome augment spell (especially for an army that is super cheap so you get hordes of troops and genuinely don't care if they die) and the clincher for me is the number 6 spell.

    The ability to just kill 3D6 enemy infantry is awesome (i.e. NO saves of any kind allowed). The fact that if you outroll the number of troops you get you get to create a unit under your own control is ridiculous.

    Considered in synergy with how the army is played, I think this is one of the strongest lores out there.

    -

    What I felt was true from reading each of the lore's is that there are some that seem generally slightly better (High Elves with the +1 to ward saves, Nurgle with great offensive and defensive spells, Lizardmen with the ability to switch out for other spells) I would say that for the most part they are pretty on par.

    What I was also constantly reminded of, was the fickle Dice God's. Magic in the 8th edition is a bit like a star striker on an otherwise mediocre football team: every so often something INCREDIBLE happens, but for the most part nothing occurs.

    For the above reasons, I would say that the Tomb Kings stands as one of the best. Purely for the fact that if you field the Hierotitan and Casket of Souls you can increase your odds exponentially to have one of those amazing moments. The lore itself is fine, not amazing or crap. But the ability to have an EFFECTIVE magic phase is pretty priceless.

    Those are my thoughts :)
     
  6. Lizards of Renown
    Slann

    Lizards of Renown Herald of Creation

    Messages:
    9,729
    Likes Received:
    24,256
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Very curious what you consider to be the number 1 lore @NIGHTBRINGER

    And your views on how to use the Slaneesh one as I really didn't find it that impressive.
     
    Cptn Timmy and NIGHTBRINGER like this.
  7. Cptn Timmy
    Cold One

    Cptn Timmy Active Member

    Messages:
    103
    Likes Received:
    202
    Trophy Points:
    43
    I could not have said it better myself; devious and nuanced. The LoS i find to be a very fun lore that offers different strategies you can't find anywhere else in the game. If I may jump in on this lore I would first, agree that there are more dud spells, and second I would state that I also love the lore and have had great experiences with the demon prince 2.0 as some have called it and also very much enjoy it on a caster on a steed of slaanesh kitted out for combat.
    The beauty in the LoS is the two spells that give your opponent AsL and random movement. As they say " Warhammer is won in the movement phase" and forcing a unit to random move d6 throws an absolute wrench in your opponents plan or can incapacitate a war machine that is forced to move and therefore can't fire. Hysterical frenzy also can be used to either buff your own unit or to very sneakily force your opponents in to poor situations. I one time successfully flank charged a unit of knights with war hounds and cast the frenzy on the knights. When the knights won the combat they were forced to pursue the dogs towards the edge of the table and away from affecting the game for a few turns. It was glorious. Lastly throwing a cacophony choir in the middle of an opponents lines paired with the lore attribute is an absolute BOMB.

    This is one of the reasons that I do lend partial to the great nurgly goodness. I find that having multiple choices between what you need to get done per magic phase helps you force out a single spell ultimately ensuring use out of your magic points investment. I personally would rather hit 6 singles than 2 home runs. Also very much agree with you that skaven magic is straight up Nasty and the dreaded 13th is just gross.
    Edit: the more I think about the skaven lore though I think that the 13th is actually the only spell that really scares me in that lore. But I have not played against skaven in some time and can't remember the full lore so I might be misremembering.

    One last thing, if we are including the effectiveness and synergy with the army and the available items and such I think I would throw the lore of vampires in as possibly my #1 spot.
     
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2021
  8. Cptn Timmy
    Cold One

    Cptn Timmy Active Member

    Messages:
    103
    Likes Received:
    202
    Trophy Points:
    43
    I agree with this 100% but will add that the first time I ever tried this lore out I rolled a 1,2,3,4,5 for my spells. :D:D:D the second time faired much better.
     
  9. Cptn Timmy
    Cold One

    Cptn Timmy Active Member

    Messages:
    103
    Likes Received:
    202
    Trophy Points:
    43
    One last thing, and I hope I'm not clogging this thread too much, if you want to see the nuance of the lore of slaanesh in action watche miniwargamings last battle with deamons vs vampire counts. Cullen almost pulls off acquiescence perfectly but makes a tragic mistake that turns out to be quite funny.
     
  10. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

    Messages:
    57,075
    Likes Received:
    176,254
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Nope... it's all great stuff. Keep it coming. The purpose of this thread is to create conversation and share analysis & opinions.

    I'll do a write up soon! :)
     
    Lizards of Renown likes this.
  11. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

    Messages:
    57,075
    Likes Received:
    176,254
    Trophy Points:
    113
    My number one choice is easily The Lore of the Vampires.

    Here are the reasons why I feel that it is by far the best army book magic lore:
    • The lore attribute is top class - you basically have the lore of Life lore attribute, which is my favorite BRB lore attribute. Healing expensive Vampire Blender Lords, Wizards, Terrorgheists or the like is absolutely invaluable. The fact that you can do it with your lore attribute means that it is very difficult for your opponent to prevent it, as they would if you were relying on a single specific spell going off. Chances are they can't stop all your spells, so you are free to heal back expensive and valuable wounds.
    • The Signature Spell (Invocation of Nehek) is the best of the best - a top tier healing spell that can be bubbled at three different casting values! The base casting value is extremely cheap, and if you have spare dice you can increase its range. This spell is one of the key linchpins that make the Vampire Counts a force to be reckoned with. As a TK player, I certainly wish I had access to it. Additionally, on top of Invocation being a fantastic spell in it own right, it's also important to consider that it is the Signature spell. Having perhaps your best spell as the Signature Spell is a huge bonus as you are guaranteed to get it and it always be extra beneficial to trade away a spell you don't need. This is one of the key advantages that the Lore of Vampires has over the LoS and LoN, who can't guarantee they get their best spells and can be stuck with a poor spell because they may not want to trade it for their signature spells (each of which is not very impressive). Additionally, multiple wizards in the army can get the spell!
    • There is only one dud spell in the lore (Wind of Death) - once again to draw a comparison to the LoS and LoN (both which I regard as fantastic lores), they have several spells that are either poor or mediocre. Consequently the effectiveness of those lores is somewhat vulnerable to what spells you roll at the beginning of the game. The same cannot be said with the Lore of Vampires. Since you're always going to want to swap one of your spells for the Signature (see above), rolling spell number 6 means that you simply always choose to trade that one. As such, you'll never be stuck with a spell you don't want.
    • Great versatility in spells - you've got a healing spell (and lore attribute), 2 augment spells, a solid magic missile (especially in an army with no shooting), a unique summoning spell and damage dealing ultra dangerous hex spell. You also have a magical vortex, but that is the spell I would always choose to swap for the signature. The lore has it all and compliments the army very well. Most of the spells remain fully effective in the late stages of the game once everything is locked in combat.
    • Unique spell in the Raise Dead - having a mechanic that no other army has (excluding End Times crap) is pretty cool. Its an immensely useful tool in the tool box that can be employed in a variety of different ways (chaff, chaff killing, war machine hunting, lone wizard hunting, obstruction, etc.). It's one of those spells that benefits greatly from some creative thinking and generalship.
    • A devastating "#6" spell in the form of spell #5 (Curse of Years) - many of the best lores in the game are known for having truly terrifying number 6 spells (Lore of Life, Lore of Death, Lore of Shadows, Lore of Hashut, Lore of Slaanesh). As mentioned before, the Wind of Death is a weak spell that should always be traded out, however this does not leave the Vampires without a truly frightening spell. In their case, the spell is simply the fifth spell of the lore. Assuming that the enemy unit has no ward/regen, the spell kills 1/6th of the unit immediately. However, what makes it even truly scary is that it remains in play and gets more effective each round (wounding on 6's then 5's, then 4's, then 3's and finally on 2's). This means that the opponent must then waste power dice in their own magic phase or pretty much sacrifice their unit. Not to mention if they forget about the spell and fail to save some spare dice :cyclops:. The final cherry on top is the fact that the spell can be cast into combat because it is a hex (one of the things that makes the LoS's 6th spell so powerful)

    Those are my main reasons for ranking the Lore of Vampires as my favourite army book lore. I'd trade away the Lore Nehekhara in a heartbeat for this beast of a lore. Not only that, if possible, I'd take it in my CD, LM or WoC armies if it was applicable (if they had access to it and the references to Undead Units was changed to their corresponding units).

    While all but one of the spells are fantastic, the four spells I'd personally go for in most situations (barring situation specific exceptions) are:
    • Invocation of Nehek - see above
    • Vanhel's Danse Macabre (the re-rolls of failed To Hit rolls is already worth the casting value of 6+, let alone of added versatility being able to use it as a movement spell and the ability to bubble the spell if need be)
    • Raise Dead - see above
    • Curse of Years - see above
    That said, I would not feel hamstrung if I ended up with Hellish Vigour or Gaze of Nagash, as both are very solid. As mentioned before, I would always swap out Wind of Death.

    And there you have it. One of the very best lores in the game (IMHO), including all army book and BRB lores. Outside of the fact that the lore is somewhat limited in terms of the range of the spells, it is nearly flawless. Useful, versatile, devastating and unique. The VC wouldn't quite be the VC if they did not have this fantastic lore.


    Agree... disagree? Did I miss anything? Which lores are better and why?
     
  12. Lizards of Renown
    Slann

    Lizards of Renown Herald of Creation

    Messages:
    9,729
    Likes Received:
    24,256
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Great write-up.

    A key thing here I the synergy with the army. It has a lot of cheap tarpit/throw-away units and very expensive characters that you want to keep alive.

    I don't see any reason why this doesn't take top spot.

    The signature spell point and lore attribute is a really good one. You can have multiple casters with this spell and thus lots of chances to heal up characters.

    Pretty deadly. Also handles the point of not having a great magic phase as lots of chances.

    I'd agree with the top spot.
     
    Cptn Timmy and NIGHTBRINGER like this.
  13. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

    Messages:
    57,075
    Likes Received:
    176,254
    Trophy Points:
    113
    It's what the Lore of Nehekhara should be. :( (that goes for a lot of things that the VC got that the TK did not).


    Anyways, glad you liked the write up. It's the type of lore that I'd love to play (but unfortunately I don't have a VC army). It's powerful, it's unique and it's highly thematic.
     
    Cptn Timmy and Lizards of Renown like this.
  14. Lizards of Renown
    Slann

    Lizards of Renown Herald of Creation

    Messages:
    9,729
    Likes Received:
    24,256
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I mean, if you exhanged (and slightly adapted) the signature spell it would revolutionise the Tomb Kings.

    I wonder if we could get someone in GW to do a final errata?
     
    Cptn Timmy and NIGHTBRINGER like this.
  15. Lizards of Renown
    Slann

    Lizards of Renown Herald of Creation

    Messages:
    9,729
    Likes Received:
    24,256
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I still think that Skaven has a shot at number two (only because it's lore attribute is rubbish). It has GREAT synergy with the army and has one of the most gnarly attacking spells in the game (where you basically kill outright 3D6 infantry models, no saves allowed, not to mention making a new unit for yourself if you manage to roll over the number of existing infantry).

    If Skaven weren't so cost intensive I might look at starting an army. They are a really unique collection, a bit like O&Gs in terms of variety and craziness.

    (And I loves me a little craziness :) it's what attracted me to OKs)
     
  16. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

    Messages:
    57,075
    Likes Received:
    176,254
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Indeed. TK could be largely fixed by simply bringing them into line with the VC:
    • access to a Lore of Vampires type lore
    • ability to march when within range of the general (and Animated Constructs are treated in the same way as models with the Vamperic special rule)
    • allow another Liche Priest take over hierophant duties should the Heirophant be slain
    I'm not saying that the TK would become powerhouses, but these simple changes would make a major impact. Fix up the EBtS rule and allow TK to make Stand and Shoot reactions and we're in business.

    No chance. :oops:
     
  17. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

    Messages:
    57,075
    Likes Received:
    176,254
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I really have to give the Skaven lore another look. It's been a really long time since I looked over their spells. The Dreaded Thirteen spell is quite scary, only mitigated by the fact that it has an insanely high casting cost (if I remember correctly).
     
    Cptn Timmy and Lizards of Renown like this.
  18. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

    Messages:
    57,075
    Likes Received:
    176,254
    Trophy Points:
    113
  19. Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl
    Slann

    Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl Eleventh Spawning

    Messages:
    7,105
    Likes Received:
    15,821
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I’m not so big on studying the Lores of Magic (especially given I spend a lot of my time playing Dwarfs and not using any magic :D), but certainly from reading the Army Books I own (Greenskins, Tomb Kings, Lizardmen and High Elves), High Magic would be the most powerful. Walk Between Worlds is a great spell (fly move + Ethereal for a turn is great), and Fiery Convocation is a nice one too that’s a pretty good Horde (and Troll) killer. Healing friendly characters and destroying enemy magic items are also fun tricks to employ if you can get the spells off.

    I’m also familiar with the Chaos lores as part of my work on an 8th Edition Beastmen book, which (spoiler) includes those lores but with some more beastly Lore Attributes. Poor old Tzeentch’s lore suffers painfully from the Warpflame rule, but the other two are decent. Curse of the Leper I’m sure is a bit of a rehash of The Withering from the Lore of Shadow, but giving a Toughness buff to one of your own units is nice, as are giving your units Poisoned Attacks and Regeneration and reducing enemies’ Initiative to 1. Slaanesh is a bit more hit-and miss, but Cacophonic Choir can be nasty if you roll highly on the 2D6 Strength 4 hits.
     
    NIGHTBRINGER and Cptn Timmy like this.
  20. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

    Messages:
    57,075
    Likes Received:
    176,254
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Touché!

    High Magic is a pretty damn good lore. Focus of Mystery is definitely my favourite setup for my Slann. Coincidentally, the lore of High Magic is one of the few lores that the unkillable WoC Hortennse lord actually fears!

    On average (i.e. in most cases), how would you rank the spells of High Magic?

    Also, which High Magic lore attribute to do you like the best: HE, LM or WE?


    Agreed. They really messed up the Lore of Tzeentch with that ridiculous Warpflame rule. What a bone-headed idea that was.




    @Lizards of Renown , how would you rank the spells of Skaven's lore of Ruin?
     

Share This Page