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8th Ed. What would it take to make CoC competetive?

NewToFantasy
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NewToFantasy

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I have come to understand, and through experience, that CoC are not a very powerful unit and the general consensus is that they are not worth their points.

What would it take to make them competetive? Lowering their points? higher strength value? no stupidity? I am wondering because I have agreed to play a game against a Brett Player and we both agreed that we would each use all Cavalry armies, but since our only cav is a special choice and not very good one at that, we agreed to change the rules a bit and he even went so far and he said that I could "buff" them a bit provided he knew what buff they recieved, and I would run it by him and he would see if it is not too broken (obviously if I made them all Ws 10 Str 10 Ini 10 that wouldn't be ok)

In a nut shell what would it take to make CoC worth those points (or how many points do you think they are worth) in your opinion?
 
So are you only taking Cold One Cavalry and Terradons in this game then? Sounds kinda boring to play (unless you are allowing Carnosaurs and Stegadons as well, that would be a bit more fun).

As to your question I'm one of the few who enjoys COC, you just have to be selective with your targets, they are not elite unit killers, but I find they chew through small weak units like candy. I use them by getting them in back of the enemy as fast as they can go and then start crushing unit after unit of small fry.

For their points cost I think dropping Stupidity and upping them to 3 Attacks and 3 Initiative would probably fix them. That'd take them in line with Tomb Kings (Core units I2, Specials I3).
 
More attacks would make them a bit too powerful... And stupidity isn't really a huge problem with cold blooded. I think the main problem is that they are so slow so they suffer casualties before they get to hit. Give them ASF on the turn they charge (for both mount and rider) and they will be gold.

Having said that, in a specific cavalry vs cavalry game that might not prove as much of a boost since they are probably a bit more likely to charge you than you charge them, Bret knights are a little faster. Still, thats what I would do to them to make them competative without getting too powerful.
 
I would love to see them with 1+ save instead of the 2+ one. Might seem minor but that really makes a different IMOP
 
Yes I can use steggies and Terradons or a Carnosaur but basically all my core choices have been replaced by CoC so I really need a fix for them if they should stand a chance.

as to the 1+ save vs. the 2+ save, doesn't a 2+ succeed on a roll of 2 or higher? and everything fails on a roll of 1 so why go the extra mile?

3 attacks would make them waaay to powerful. What about if I left them as is, but lowered their cost by 5-10 points per model?
 
I would be prepared for their lance formation. They are a bit faster, so probably will get the charge. Their I (along with about everyone else's) is higher so they will get a lot of hits on initial impact. So most Bret Generals field lances between 9-12 models in strength. This model represents the largest of these.

Grail Knights_______ Knights of the Realm/Errant/Questing

Example 1____________________Example 1

222__________________________111
212__________________________111
202__________________________101
202__________________________101

Example 2____________________Example 2

222__________________________111
111__________________________111
000__________________________000
000__________________________000

The # = amount of attacks that model gets minus their horse attack. The red = that model gets the horse attack as well. Example 1 is on the charge only. Example 2 is subesqent round or not on a charge. They will also get +2 strength for their weapon on the charge (or if questing knights +2 strength with GW but striking last.. but most Bret Generals do not field these). So on a charge... if it's Knight errant or knights of the realm, then that's 9 attacks at S 5 plus 9 horses. If they are Questing Knights, then that's 9 attacks at S 6 (but ASL) plus 9 horses. If they are Grail Knights, then that's 19 attacks at S 6 plus 9 horses.

The Grail Knights also come with the Grail Vow wich grants immunity to phsycology, get an automatic 6+ ward save (5+ against enemies with S5 or higher) even if army doesn't pray to Lady at beginning of game, and all riders attacks are considered magical.

Knights of the Realm and Errant get the Knights Vow wich gives them immunie to panic caused by friendly units.

Questing Knights get Questing Vow which allows them to ignore Panic caused by friendly units and can re-roll all failed psycoloty tests.

Good luck and am interested on how it all turns out!

- Lord Cedric
 
I have dealt with his Lance formation before, in fact both of my fantasy wins are from his Brettonian army.
(my losses are attributed to his WE army)
He's not very good at using Brettonians yet, I think because he is used to different armies like his WE and he tries to play them like WE and avoid me half the game, which Bretts really are not meant to do
 
Ah! Very good then! :D And you right. It doesn't sound like he's using them to his advantage.. or even close to it. Brets was my first army - playing them since 4th edition. I don't like the way 8th edition has taken away from cavalry as a whole (which, imo, hurt brets the most).. but in no way did it really kill them as a competitive army.

Imo, WE are an army all of their own with mostly hit and run and shoot as much as possible within wooden areas etc etc and in the current 8th ed, seem to be the overall weekest army. Not saying that they aren't decent.. but their play style isn't meant for someone coming fresh into Fantasy. It takes a while to learn that army. And even more to play it well. So yeah.. hehe.. fully agree that Brets (and pretty much most other armies) shouldn't be played like WE. Im sure your opponent will learn in time... but sounds like it will be the hard way.

Best of luck!

- Lord Cedric
 
Wood Elves are a weak army, but when used properly they are very efficient at what they do (that can be said about any army though) and are a pain in the arse, and he seems to dance circles around my army and pick them off slowly.

But that is a topic for another thread I might start :bored:
 
Game is tonight at 6 (U.S. Eastern time). All my Core choices have been replaced by CoC with ASF on the charge. Should be interesting.
 
Good luck! Very interested to hear how it all turns out. :D

- Lord Cedric
 
I won the game in the last turn, we each destroyed pretty much each other's army, and all I had left was my unit of temple guard and a unit of CoC and he had 2 units of knights left. He charged my temple guard in the front and the flank, and I charged his unit which charged my flank with my CoC. I ended up winning by a few points since my Slann with TG unit was a massive investment (over 800 points) and I was down to 3 TG.


Couple things I leanred:

1. us Lizardmen players really have learned to become dependant on Skinks for redirecting units, but since ALL my core was replaced my CoC, I had to really think outside the box and maneuver with greater caution, less I get flanked

2. Grail Knights are really hard. bastards.

3. CoC don't do much, giving them ASF on the charge didn't help either, they just get shot down before they can reach the enemy and then after the charge they are only S4 which doesn't do much.
I could have easily lost if they failed their stupidity test on a few occassions, us LM players should really be thankful for Cold Blooded.

4. Cold One Cavalry are IMO a bit too expensive at what they do, everything which they can do they don't do very well, or at least w/o a few heroes they are not an uber unit (like Blood Knights or Dragon Princes)

5. I would take chamo skinks over them in a heart beat.
 
Soo Waht kind of list Did you end up taking,
Personaly I would have been tempted to drop the slann for
a old blood on a carnasaur.
 
If you are going to try this again see if you can use Tichi-Huichi's Raiders

http://bloodbowl.arnholm.nu/images/Skink_Raiders.pdf.

Just add Scaly Skin 6+ (it was in a later errata) and Fast cavalry.
 
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