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WHFB Persia Concept Artwork by Matthew Klaas de Witte (WHFB)

Discussion in 'General Hobby/Tabletop Chat' started by Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl, Oct 20, 2022.

  1. Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl
    Slann

    Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl Eleventh Spawning

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    As you all know, I'm a great fan of the artwork of DeviantArtist Matthew Klaas de Witte, who has thoroughly impressed me with his work on Albion, which has gone on to make up the basis of my fan-made army list, and now he has come up with another big idea - a Warhammer take on the once-mighty Persian civilisation, that he has dubbed Iksassan.

    Here are the first of his ideas thus far:

    A Champion of the Origin Flame, likely to be a hero-level character who deals in all things fire:
    [​IMG]

    And the first concept artworks for a named character, again likely to be a Hero, Āraš:
    [​IMG]

    @Karak Norn Clansman I've tagged you in particular, as a fellow fan of Matt's work, so you can follow the thread too.
     
  2. Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl
    Slann

    Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl Eleventh Spawning

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    To start with, where would Iksassan be located?

    The Warhammer World has a lot of races and a tonne of human factions already, so there aren't many available locations in which a Warhammer Persia could be located, but one good place could be what is referred to on maps as The Plain of Bones, specifically in the marked region:
    upload_2022-10-21_14-23-9.png

    This region, as close as we can get really to Anatolia and Babylon, is often used for Warhammer Fantasy campaigns because of its lack of settlements (apart from the Chaos Dwarfs, but more on them later), and is heavily desertified, which would make it a fitting homeland for fantasy Persians, and the fact that it is a relatively small piece of the wider Dark Lands fits well with some of Matt's initial background:
    You can imagine then that there was originally a vast Iksassan Empire covering all of what would become the Dark Lands, from the eastern edge of the World's Edge Mountains to the western edge of the Mountains of Mourn, probably about the time of Ancient Nehekhara, until in came the Chaos Dwarfs, who, with their superior technology, beat back the Iksassan and forced them to the very southern limits of their land, and have turned the rest of their former territory into industrial wasteland. This also presents an unusual grudge match that we haven't seen much of in Warhammer - evil Dwarfs vs good Humans. Most of the Warhammer fantasy races can be divided into 'grudge pairs' based upon their mutual hatred of one another plus particularly contrasting and similar attributes:
    • Empire and Warriors of Chaos - both are factions of Germanic-style humans, one remains a bastion of relative order, the other has fully embraced the dark side, and the two are at absolute loggerheads whenever an Everchosen decides to invade the Empire.
    • Dwarfs and Orcs and Goblins - Though the Skaven come a close second, the Greenskins were far and away the biggest despoiler of the Dwarf holds, and the Dwarfs hate the Orcs and Goblins above all other races - Dwarfs were only given Hatred (Skaven) in 8th Edition but have Hated Greenskins since at least 3rd Edition - because of it, not to mention that the spineless, weedy but cunning Goblins are very much the opposite of the honourable, stocky, tough Dwarfs.
    • High Elves and Dark Elves - The various lore and novels regarding the Sundering will tell you all you need to know about the bloodshed between these two.
    • Lizardmen and Skaven - When they weren't stealing the cities of the Dwarfs and sending diseases to plague Bretonnia and the Empire, the Skaven were doing both to the Lizardmen, and then the Lizardmen struck back by sacrificing numberless Skaven to Sotek. These two races are pretty much opposites in their physiologies and the concept that one has a grand plan to preserve the world, and the other has numberless grand plans to destroy it (all of which, if you discount the End Times as I do, go hilariously wrong :p).
    • Wood Elves and Beastmen - These races represent the two sides of nature; the Wood Elves represent everything wholesome and full of life and the Beastmen embody everything primal and debased, and the two fight regular secret wars in the forests of the world to achieve full control of the wild places.
    • Tomb Kings and Vampire Counts - The Vampire Counts faction was an offshoot of the living Tomb Kings in lore, with their teachings having origins in two Nehekharans, Nagash the first and greatest Necromancer, and Neferata the first Vampire, and then the machinations of the former resulted in the transformation of the Nehekharans into Undead shadows of their former selves. Not to mention that they are both Undead with different aspirations for power.
    • Bretonnia and Daemons of Chaos - though these two races don't have a particular grudge toward one another, they do represent opposite ends of the spectrum, with the Knights of Bretonnia being the pinnacle of purity, goodness and nobility, and Daemons representing the ultimate evil and the manifestation of every sin to exist, plus the sheer unstoppable power of the Daemons of Chaos makes them the greatest dragon for the brave knight of Bretonnia to tackle.
    The Dawi-Zharr and the Iksassan make a good grudge-pair because of them both having Mesopotamian cultural elements, and both of them worshipping a fire deity. Indeed we can take inspiration from Zoroastrianism - as Matt already has done - to link the two factions further.

    Very little is known as to the origins of Hashut, some believe he is the fifth Chaos God (though the Horned Rat could easily have equal claim to this title) while others believe he is just a particularly powerful fire-daemon. However, what is known is that his influence is much weaker than that of the four main Chaos Gods and he is pretty much exclusively worshipped by the Chaos Dwarfs, so it's clear to see his power is weaker than a lot of other deities in the Old World.

    Zoroastrianism is one of the earliest monotheistic faiths, where the one god, Ahura Mazda (who evolved from the king of the ancient polytheistic Persian pantheon) is the creator spirit and the Lord of Wisdom, and he is opposed only by Angra Mainyu, or Ahriman (where the Thousand Son in 40K got his name from), a spirit that seems merely to have been an offshoot of Ahura Mazda, who only had the power to corrupt and twist existing things to serve him (likely the inspiration for Satan in Christianity and Melkor/Morgoth in Tolkien's religion of Middle Earth). It's not known how he was created - he could be a brother of the 7 Spenta Mainyu, who were the first seven emanations of Ahura Mazda (and presumably the inspiration for the 7 'Amesha' that Matt discusses), or a different being entirely. It's likely the explanation of his origin was lost in the destruction of Zoroastrian libraries by the Muslim Arabs as they conquered the Sassanid Empire. Nevertheless, if we adopt the idea of him being a corrupted Spenta Mainyu (which seems about right given that they are all Mainyu, i.e. Spirits), Hashut could play the role of Ahriman as a fallen Amesha in the Warhammer equivalent, and an aspiring rival to the Warhammer IIkshassan equivalent of Ahura Mazda.

    But who will our Warhammer Ahura Mazda be, and how will he fit into the list of Warhammer deities?

    One of my ideas in writing additional lore to accompany Matt's art, and the army list I developed from it, is that the gods of Albion are the Old Ones, in a different form that was easier for the people of Albion to comprehend and idolise. I could apply a similar idea here and propose that Warhammer Ahura Mazda be an Old One who was lord of fire, who chose to lead some of the Fourth Race to the land beyond the World's Edge mountains and encouraged them to build a civilisation based upon his teachings. The closest known Old One to fit this description is Chotec, but he is the god of the Sun. There are some other Old Ones according to the Warhammer Fantasy wiki whose purpose is as-yet unknown:
    • Conalxa
    • Inhamex
    • Potec
    • Querchi
    • Xapati
    • Yuxa
    @Scalenex as our resident archivist for all things Lizardman, have you heard of any of these Old One names before, and if any of these were linked to fire?

    Alternatively we could say that Warhammer Ahura Mazda is a physical embodiment of Aqshy, the Wind of Fire, though maybe that's treading too close to the shenanigans that we saw in the End Times for everyone's liking.

    @Karak Norn Clansman perhaps it may be worth posing these ideas to Matt and see what he thinks?
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2022
  3. Scalenex
    Slann

    Scalenex Keeper of the Indexes Staff Member

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    In the seventh edition book, Potec was listed as a very important Old One on par with Tepoc at least. is Potec is "he who wards against the supernatural.” I don't recall seeing anything written about Potec in 5th, 6th, or 8th edition books.

    In my fluff at least Potec is a a defender against subtle threat. Chotec and Sotek are there to kill threats such as Warriors of Chaos, Skaven, orcs, etc.

    Potec guards against spiritual corruption and to a lesser extant, pollution. Dangerous threats you cannot fight with a sword or an axe. At least that is my interpretation.

    In my fluff, most Lizardmen cities have a small temple to Potec in the north of the city to guard against the corruption of the northern Chaos gate and another temple in the south to guard against the southern Chaos gate.

    If a Lizardmen settlement is too small to support two or even one Potec temple, a small Potec shrine is acceptable. At least in my fluff.

    Xapati is only mentioned once in the 6th edition book regarding the magical item Blood Stattuette of spite. it's not even clear from the reference is Xapati is an Old One. Xapati could be a very vengeance minded Slann that made a bunch of vengeance based statuettes, or Xapati could be a coatl or a legendary Skink priest. It's vague.

    In my fluff I chose to make Xapati a minor Old One associated with righteous retribution.

    Very few temple cities are large enough to justify a full temple for Xapati. Most make due with a gazebo and a small shrine.

    I wrote a short story in 2020 centered around a skink praying for vengeance against a dark elf at a shrine of Xapati while the dark elf prayed for vengeance against said skink at a shrine of Drakira.

    Prayers for Vengeance

    Tekakor (Tek-ah-core) thought about going to the shrine of Xapati weeks earlier but he decided to wait for Vengeance Day.

    The Skink chief walked along the mulch path towards the shrine. The insects were getting noisy in the dusk gloom, but the Skink tuned it out. He thought only of his hatred. The Skink half-expected to see a small queue, but he was the only one from at the kahoun’s shrine this evening. The Old Ones may be beings of duty not beings of vengeance, but Takakur knew that sometimes vengeance and duty overlapped. That’s what the Old One Xapati represents.

    Takakur had never visited the shrine before. The shrine was modest, a small gazebo over a stone altar surrounded by a small statuette of Xapati in all four cardinal directions. Beyond the four statuettes were sixteen wooden poles carved with glyphs forming a loose circle around the altar. The skink lit of stick of incense and waved it around the shrine. Then he bit into the soft part of his left hand. After daubing his own blood in a rough circle around the altar, he knelt.

    “Great Xapati, I beseech you. Grant me holy vengeance against the foes of the Great Plan…”


    Iliphar (ill-a-far) finally made it to Drakira’s temple. The disgraced corsair commander had trouble obtaining enough leave to make the pilgrimage to the Drakira temple in Karand Kar, but his commander granted him a leave for vengeance sake.

    Apart from the ceremonial guard at the entrance, the temple was completely empty. Iliphar thought it was odd that he was the only elf in Karand Kar not seeking vengeance that evening. Too many Druichi worshipped Khaine alone. Khaine may be Naggaroth’s greatest patron, but the Druichi should claim the heritage of all the elven god. Khaine was a supported general destruction of one’s enemies, but Illiphar sought a personal touch.

    The walls of the hallway to the main altar were lined with ceremonial weapons along with murals depicting famous scenes of wrongs done to the Druichi people and acts of retribution against them. A stylistic statue of a stern elven woman stood over a bronze brazier. Drakira had drained the blood of a sacrificial human earlier and carried it in a large ceramic jar. He unsealed the jar then took a knife and cut his palm to mix his blood with that of the dead slave before pouring the mixture into the brazier.

    “Lady Drakira, Queen of Vengeance. Accept my offering. Grant me vengeance against those who wronged a loyal servant of the true gods.”



    Tekakor

    “The Slann, in their wisdom, have determined that a permanent settlement resettlement of the City of Echoes is not feasible. It is ill fated for any the group to stay there too long, but the Slann decreed that the ruins of Xahutec must be defended at all times. I don’t know if the ruins have that warmbloods want, but that doesn’t stop them from looking. Different contingents from throughout Lustria have been guarding the city in three-month shifts. Our kahoun just finished one such shift.

    “We didn’t have any Chameleons and we had very few Terradons, so we’ve had to do our scouting work. I was a sub-commander in charge of long range patrols.”



    Iliphar

    “My Black Ark opted to stage a raid on some ruins near Lustria’s northeast coast. The odds of finding any treasure were fairly low, but it has been some time since the armies of Naggaroth have engaged in a true war, but we cannot allow our blades to go too long without tasting blood. Illiyarus, Our Black Ark Commander thought this was a worthy test of our skills. Also, I’m pretty sure supreme sorceress, Seldanna, thought there was something of value here she could find. Illiyarus seeks to get in Seldanna’s “good graces’ so to speak.

    “It was more trouble than it was worth to take harpies on a long sea journey. Most of our horses had to haul supplies, so had to do our scouting work on foot. I was the captain in charge of our point group.”


    Tekakor

    “My army group had thirty-seven Sotek Caste Skinks armed with javelins. We had two cohorts of with a combined total of seventy-eight worker caste Skinks and eight Kroxigor. We had thirteen beast caste brethren with two Razordons and a Salamander.

    “We spotted the Fallen before they could see us, but we only had a split second advantage. A single spawning of skirmishers threw a volley of javelins before all the elves were alert and and firing their strange bows upon us. Most of their bolts missed but they such a high volume of fire some of these shots struck true and downed a warrior.

    “The dark elves bowmen had superior range. Some of the soldiers wearing the stolen scaly cloaks from who knows what kind of creature and these cloaks seemed to be very javelin resistant. I knew a shooting contest was a bad idea, so I ordered the cohorts to charge immediately.

    “The Fallen of the Second Race held firm. The cohorts were doing a respectable job but the elves were dealing out worse than they got. I wanted to help them, but I was holding back with the Sotek caste because I knew the elves had to have some kind of flanking force.

    “Their flanking force was warmblooded cavalry and unarmored dual wielding elves screaming like howler monkeys. Unarmored elven infantry are very vulnerable to our javelins but I had to cover the horses. I split the fire between the two threats and caused many infantry to die, but unfortunately I underestimated the cavalry. They obliterated half of a spawning of Sotek Skinks and only lost two of their own in the process.

    “I was vaguely aware of an elf in shinier false scales directing the other elves, but he was too far away for me to do anything about it. I could get him later.

    “I wondered what the beast caste skinks were doing but I didn’t have time to rein them in. While the cavalry was regrouping after running the west flank down, I led the rest of the Sotek skinks to counter charge them. At this point I lost track of the rest of the battle temporarily. The cavalry had to die.”


    Iliphar

    “The advanced group I was commanding had ten dark riders, thirty corsairs, thirty crossbowmen and twenty-seven witch elves. I didn’t want the witch elves at all, they don’t follow orders well, but Seldanna insisted the witch elves be in every army group and Illyarus unsurprisingly agreed.

    “We spotted the lizards before they could see us, but we only had a split second advantage. We got a rushed volley of bolts off before the javelins began to rain down on us. Their infantry quickly came in to support their skirmishers. Most of the javelins rebounded harmlessly against our armor, but every point that struck skin caused death to the lizard’s poison.

    “I knew the Dark Riders would be butchered by the skirmishers if we tried to keep our distance, so I ordered our lines to converge as quickly as possible.

    “All of us had been brief on the enemy’s capabilities. When the little skinks and the crocodile ogres fought in combined units, we knew the crocodile ogres were the real threat, but they are unaccountably fond of the little warriors. If you kill enough little ones, the big ones will lose heart and flee.

    “I saw the lizards had some of the medium sized beasts with ranged attacks but they were holding back for some reason.

    “The witch elves did not join the main offensive as ordered and tried for their own flank attack. They got a bunch of poisoned javelins perforating their pretty bodies. Hah! The flank attack I ordered did better. The dark riders lost one of their members to a javelins but managed to slash or trample over a dozen skirmishers.”

    “I saw the skirmishers had a leader rallying them to resist the cavalry but I was too far away to do anything about it. He would die later.

    “At that point the Fog of War enveloped me. There was a crocodile ogre trying to kill me personally so I couldn’t pay attention to the battle at large. I wanted to set a good example for the men and I didn’t get squashed to jelly, so I took it upon myself to slay the beast.”


    Tekakor

    “When I finished off the enemy cavalry and regrouped the remaining Sotek caste, I surveyed the battle. It looked like the warbeasts got overly excited and several beast handlers were slain by their own charges. Nothing I can do about that.

    “The enemy archers had put so many arrows in into the Salamander it looked like a Razordon. The Salamander had at least managed to char some elves to death before it fell. One Razordon was exchanging shots with the elven archers while the other one engaged the remnants of the berserker infantry.

    “Despite having more numbers initially the elves against the cohort were doing relatively well. There were twice as many dead skinks as elves littering the ground. The elf commander fought like a Scar Veteran. The threat to the Razordons was more immediate.

    “I yelled ’Quit throwing spines and charge them!’ I yelled to the unengaged Razordon than I led the Sotek Skinks against the flank of the elves fighting the other Razordon.”


    Iliphar

    “I was the first to bring down a crocodile ogre. I hobbled it by slicing its shins and ankles and then slit its throat. I could stem the actions of the others. The big lizards were slow and clumsy but my men were tiring and every time a crocodile ogre struck true, an elf was turned into entrails. The sounds of dying horses told me the dark riders were finished. Nothing I could do about that.

    “We were winning against the mixed cohorts but we were winning slowly, but it looked liked the Witch Elves were being overwhelmed on our opposite flank. I didn’t like them, but I could afford to let any troops in my command die needlessly.

    “The crossbowmen seem to have neutralized the lizard’s support beasts, so I ordered the crossbowmen to try to back up the witch elves but the spikey reptile charged them. Tying them down.”


    Tekakor

    “Great Xapati, I am not afraid to admit II sorely underestimated the fury of the berserkers. The Razordon was slain quickly and they were cutting down Sotek Skinks with ease despite our numbers. The berserkers seemed to have no fear. It was all I could do to stay alive."


    Iliphar

    “I admit, Dark Lady, it was unwise to seek melee battle with that a force that large. Most of the smaller lizards were dead or routed but the lizard ogres persisted. They killed many corsairs, our armor useless against them. They were determined to hold their ground. It was all I could do to stay alive."


    Tekakor

    “Most of my Sotek brethren were dead. I would have died too were it not for the Terradons. They had arrived ahead of the rest of the army. Their dive took out many beserkers and finally broke their spirit routing the survivors of the unit.

    “The Kroxigor had finally turned the tide against their foes but that was small comfort. Perhaps they would manage to kill the enemy commander. The archers had destroyed the second Razordon and were turning towards me. Twelve of them against me and five others.

    “To my shame, I don’t remember the name of the Skink who knocked me down and took the arrow meant for me. Whatever his name, I wanted to avenge him, but I could not, I was alone. The Terradon riders destroyed the archers before they could kill me.

    “At this point the rest of the army had arrived. I was too exhausted to do much. My senses were weakened by fatigue. I barely realized that the Fallen elves had their reinforcements too. I joined a new unit of javelin Skinks and fought as best as I could the rest of the battle."


    Iliphar

    “Sixty elves had stood their ground against a hundred lizards, but it was not enough. I slain two more crocodile ogres that were already slightly wounded. It was not enough. There were three crocodile ogres still standing and me, no one else. We were surrounded by scores of dead lizards and elves lying in the mud. The dim beasts’ eyes homed in on me. I could sense their rage.

    The crossbowmen had defeated their opponents, though they failed to kill the lizard commander. I was too focused on the immediate danger before me to rectify this. My remaining men were too few, too far away to help me. I fled.

    I slain enough lizards that I feel no shame in fleeing.

    I heard the horns blowing announcing the imminent arrival of Cold One knights. I heard he roar of our Hydras. The rest of the Black Ark’s forces were near. I fled towards them then joined a new unit of corsairs.

    I saw the Cold One Cavalry kill the Kroxigor ogres that tried to killed me, but I saw the lizard commander escape and meld into his own reinforcements."


    Tekakor

    We won the battle, but at a cost. The Fallen Elves were driven back to the sea, but the losses were heavy. I was the sole survivor from our advanced unit. I believe the elven commander of their advanced unit also escape. His face haunts my dreams. He killed my brethren and must pay."


    Iliphar

    "We won the battle, but at a cost. We inflicted more damage than we received. We had trophies of slain, a small number of ceremonial captives, and we had plundered a great many gold trinkets some of the enemy soldiers were wearing. I was the sole survivor of my army group. The humiliation must not stand. My instincts tell me the skirmisher leader escaped."


    Tekakor

    "Great Xapati, most focused and driven of the Old Ones, grant me the boon I seek. Let me find my hated enemy, so that I may slay him in your name."


    Iliphar

    "Lady Drakira, Queen of Vengeance, grant me the opportunity to avenge my humiliation. Let me find my hated enemy, so that I may slay him in your name."

    The other aforementioned Old Ones, I do not recognize.


    Anyway, I do very like the idea of a Zorastrian inspired anti-Chaos Dwarf group of Persian allegory humans.
     
  4. Lizards of Renown
    Slann

    Lizards of Renown Herald of Creation

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    Tagging this so I get updates.
     
  5. Karak Norn Clansman
    Troglodon

    Karak Norn Clansman Well-Known Member

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    You got here before me! Spreading Warhammer Persia and getting discussions rolling is still on my to-do list. :)

    Lovely stuff. I'll read through it with greater care later, and in the meanwhile I'll forward this to Matt right away to see if he wish to share input.

    Cheers!
     
  6. Xapotia
    Jungle Swarm

    Xapotia New Member

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    Is it just me or does the Tower of Zharr Naggarund look suspiciously like a temple city? Could this be where they got some of their tech from?
     

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