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AoS Second Edition

Tokek said:
Personally I struggle to come up with any sort of list I like that does not have a Slann or Kroak in already - so I am not sure that much would change even if that were the case. I do wonder what will happen to the summoning mechanic on the EoTG in the new edition, that is the other model which can currently summon.
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Smaller scale games don't have slanns.
Armies with a starseer don't have slanns, in fact if a slann becomes mandatory a starseer becomes virtually pointless.
Saurus focussed armies don't Always have slanns.
Armies with several skink heroes don't have a slann as you run out of spellslots.

it just seems odd to limit it to specific models if it doesn't work that way for anyone else.
 
Canas said:
Smaller scale games don't have slanns.
Armies with a starseer don't have slanns, in fact if a slann becomes mandatory a starseer becomes virtually pointless.
Saurus focussed armies don't Always have slanns.
Armies with several skink heroes don't have a slann as you run out of spellslots.

it just seems odd to limit it to specific models if it doesn't work that way for anyone else.
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None of those options had summoning anyway. You can still play them if you like - rules reveals yet to come might even make them quite appealing. Only time will tell.
 
Tokek said:
None of those options had summoning anyway. You can still play them if you like - rules reveals yet to come might even make them quite appealing. Only time will tell.
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point is that in the current state of the game summoning costs reinforcement points and cuz of that is little more than a glorified deepstrike ability. In a 2000 point games you'l have 2000 points of stuff on the table, regardless of if you're using summoning or not.

Now that summoning is no longer part of reinforcement cost we would be able to put more than those 2000 points if we make use of it. This'l in turn be balanced by giving us some sort of drawback. Now with for example with Nurgle, every army will be able to summon and the main drawback keeping summoning in check is the relativly slow pace at whichyou generate points. This is fine because regardless of how you build your army you'l have both the advantages and drawbacks of the mechanic.

However, in our case our summoning will be connected to a specific model. Which means that if we don't have that model we immeadiatly lose out on all advantages of summoning, but don't necesarly lose the drawbacs of (theoreticly) being able to summon. And as far as I've seen so far, we're the only ones where summoning is connected to only 2 specific models, which make me worried.
 
Canas said:
point is that in the current state of the game summoning costs reinforcement points and cuz of that is little more than a glorified deepstrike ability. In a 2000 point games you'l have 2000 points of stuff on the table, regardless of if you're using summoning or not.

Now that summoning is no longer part of reinforcement cost we would be able to put more than those 2000 points if we make use of it. This'l in turn be balanced by giving us some sort of drawback. Now with for example with Nurgle, every army will be able to summon and the main drawback keeping summoning in check is the relativly slow pace at whichyou generate points. This is fine because regardless of how you build your army you'l have both the advantages and drawbacks of the mechanic.
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I'm not sure with Death they only summon back a unit that has been destroyed in the game so you never have more than the point value, unless I've missed something in the book and that could change in the new edition.
 
Crowsfoot said:
I'm not sure with Death they only summon back a unit that has been destroyed in the game so you never have more than the point value, unless I've missed something in the book and that could change in the new edition.
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if you summon a 100 points of skeletons back in a 2000 point game you've now fielded 2100 points of stuff in total during the game. Hence more than 2000.

But yes, the amount of points physically on the board at any given time won't be more than 2000, while for example nurgle would be able to do that.
 
Canas said:
if you summon a 100 points of skeletons back in a 2000 point game you've now fielded 2100 points of stuff in total during the game. Hence more than 2000.

But yes, the amount of points physically on the board at any given time won't be more than 2000, while for example nurgle would be able to do that.
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Yeah I get that, I just read it as we can have 2000 points on the table AND then summon in a unit, but we don't know yet maybe we can?
 
Crowsfoot said:
Yeah I get that, I just read it as we can have 2000 points on the table AND then summon in a unit, but we don't know yet maybe we can?
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That's not the point I'm trying to make though. I mean that connecting it to 1 specific model is liable to make that 1 model basicly mandatory due to how powerfull a mechanic it is unless all the associated drawbacks are also attached to that model.
 
Canas said:
That's not the point I'm trying to make though. I mean that connecting it to 1 specific model is liable to make that 1 model basicly mandatory due to how powerfull a mechanic it is unless all the associated drawbacks are also attached to that model.
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True and I agree, Death and Maggotkin don't work like that so why should we be restricted.
 
Canas said:
That's not the point I'm trying to make though. I mean that connecting it to 1 specific model is liable to make that 1 model basicly mandatory due to how powerfull a mechanic it is unless all the associated drawbacks are also attached to that model.
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If summoning is strong then the focus on one or two models would make them both must-takes and also paint a huge crosshair on them.
Summoning might still be able to fail or there might be other restrictions (such as only a few units being summonable in the first place, short range, small unit size etc.) so I still think that if summoning is balanced halfway well there will be some viable lists who use it, and some who don't.
 
Canas said:
However, in our case our summoning will be connected to a specific model. Which means that if we don't have that model we immeadiatly lose out on all advantages of summoning, but don't necesarly lose the drawbacs of (theoreticly) being able to summon. And as far as I've seen so far, we're the only ones where summoning is connected to only 2 specific models, which make me worried.
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Slanesh will be limited to specific models (Heroes which are limited) and a condition (inflicting or receiving wounds in combat) which may be more or less restrictive than Seraphon depending on circumstances. Sure they will always take heroes but will they always get to fight?

Although summoning looks strong I am far from convinced that it will be the strongest strategy, let alone being the only viable strategy. We have not seen much about the other magic changes yet but for a magical army that could be a big deal - heck even actually using the existing Realm rules would be a serious buff for Seraphon if we could get anyone to do it (largely because most realms come with an additional useful spell and the lack of useful spells is the main drawback of Slann).

I have no more idea than you whether it will all work out well or which specific Seraphon builds it will work out best for, I am content to just wait and see. I think what I am saying is that discussing the changes as they are revealed is fine - but we should tread carefully before drawing any overall conclusions at the faction level just yet.
 
With our summoning being tied to the Slann, it does give him a giant target to wear, but with look out sir, and his command ability sniping him will be a little harder. Then summon an eternity warden (as long as it still works the same) and that's a tough coconut to crack. With the nurgle summoning I think its 7 contagion points for 5 Plaugebearers or 1 Nurgling base, so we might have something where we don't get full sized units early as well.
 
Something worth noting IMO:
Summoning could really mitigate some of the problems we have.
For example Saurus Guard: if you can replenish units (similar to Death invocation) or even re-summon completely destroyed ones, then their value might really be better even if they keep their mediocre stats (because that would effectively make then cheaper).
Same for all our "meh" units, like Knights and Warriors, and maybe even really annoying for the enemy if it works on Skinks (imagine 1d6 Skinks coming back every round or so within 18" of a Slann or Astrolith)

And if you can save up the points for stronger/more/bigger units or larger summon radius it could add that tactical layer of waiting, making us contemplate whether it is worth waiting another round or using the summoning resource as soon as we get it.

In principle that sounds good to me. Can't wait to see how the rules actually look like in the end. Might be awesome, disappointing, or anything between.
 
Hmmm nice.
Pretty strong as well, Alarielle can reliably summon three Kurnoth Hunters or a Treelord or 20 Dryads once per battle!
So not only small stuff (100 points or so) but the equivalent of ~200 points.

Oh and tomorrow there will be another article about magic.
 
Aginor said:
Hmmm nice.
Pretty strong as well, Alarielle can reliably summon three Kurnoth Hunters or a Treelord or 20 Dryads once per battle!
So not only small stuff (100 points or so) but the equivalent of ~200 points.

Oh and tomorrow there will be another article about magic.
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That is basically a reduction in Alarielle's point cost by the cost of 20 Dryads / Kurnoth Hunters / Treelord, as more often then not you will summon these in your first turn as you don't really need the healing, so she basically comes equipped with those!
 
Jep.
Right now Kurnoths are 220 points, Treelord or 20 Dryads are 180.
Edit: correction: 20 Dryads are 200, a Treelord 240
 
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