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7th Ed. lizardmen in 8ed, what do you think?
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Ripperdactyl
Walgis
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i tryed to play kroxi in skinks but realy didint like it... meiby dont know how to play with it.
the other minus i see is eotg... i will realy miss them.
i red 7ed lizardmen and saw that when you took priest on steg, steg counted for rare option they could do that here, that would be nice, atleast one - two stegs would be avalable.
the other minus i see is eotg... i will realy miss them.
i red 7ed lizardmen and saw that when you took priest on steg, steg counted for rare option they could do that here, that would be nice, atleast one - two stegs would be avalable.
I'm leaning towards building up a combat army based on the rumours for 8th ed, especially if the 25% restriction is true.
Also, the rumour about only one save - how might that affect EoTG ward saves and protecting warrior blocks with it?
Also, the rumour about only one save - how might that affect EoTG ward saves and protecting warrior blocks with it?
Cold One
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Too soon to tell. Its possible that they will go back to percentages for core, specials, rares and characters and if that is the case then we will see far fewer characters mounted on stegadons, but they will still be lumbering across the battlefield, simply because we don't have great rares anyway, so why not use them? I wont buy more than one until I get a peek at the 8th edition rules.
I hadn't heard that magic was getting downgraded. I hope it doesn't. I think strong magic phases are very much the lizardmens place according to the lore.
I would love it if 8th edition improved Skrox units, but I don't think the core rule book will, and our new armybook is a very long way into the future.
I hadn't heard that magic was getting downgraded. I hope it doesn't. I think strong magic phases are very much the lizardmens place according to the lore.
I would love it if 8th edition improved Skrox units, but I don't think the core rule book will, and our new armybook is a very long way into the future.
Ripperdactyl
Walgis
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i gues you have to choose whether to take armour save or 5+ ward save.
i think this rumour shold be untrue.
what canserns eotg i though of an idea that could save it.
points for your priest go to heroe section and for eotg goes to rare slot points, but with this you can easaly take 2 eotg with slann. with these restrictions its quite alot. so i think eotg could count as a hero but points would go to rare slot, so at 2000 + pt game max you could tae 2 eotg or an eotg with slann. i think this is quite reasonable, dont you think?
i think this rumour shold be untrue.
what canserns eotg i though of an idea that could save it.
points for your priest go to heroe section and for eotg goes to rare slot points, but with this you can easaly take 2 eotg with slann. with these restrictions its quite alot. so i think eotg could count as a hero but points would go to rare slot, so at 2000 + pt game max you could tae 2 eotg or an eotg with slann. i think this is quite reasonable, dont you think?
Skink
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I think that Lizardmen will do fine in 8th edition. You might not be able to go full out on characters but that's not really necessary. Lizardmen shouldn't have any problems with the 25% core rumour since they have really good core units. Specials shouldn't be a problem either. Rares will be hurt a bit since with only 15% to spend you can't have both sallies/razors and an ancient stedadon at the same time.
Carnasaur
Caneghem
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My thoughts on 8th edition
I did hear one rumour that the BRB would contain scenarios with objectives that would require core units with banners to capture them. Combined with other changes, this might be enough to make skrox units viable with their speed being pretty high for infantry. The trick would be supporting them enough that they can then HOLD the objective. Too early to tell.
There might be some sort of Horde rule, where units 10 wide can fight in 3 ranks and the front row can always attack even if not in base to base contact. 30 skinks costs only 150 points... just sayin! In addition, all shooting units will be allowed to fire in two ranks... this will make a pretty nice stand and shoot reaction with 20 poisoned javelins! Would also help fill out the requirement for 25% core, which seems like a pretty solid rumor at this point. I initially thought it might be cool to do the 10 skink wide skrox horde, but I'm not sure you gain much from this as the skrox can already fight from the second rank anyway. My setup would probably be 22skinks with 2 krox in this setup, if I do choose to run them...
SSSSSSSSSS
SKKSSSSKKS
SKKSSSSKKS
You want the kroxigors for their leadership and fear causing at least (whatever fear will do.. probably something useful). This way the kroxigors will usually get to both fight whatever is in front of the unit and the eight skinks in the middle back ranks will get to throw in their attacks as well, with 16 shots on stand and shoot still. It's all very theoretical still.
Speaking of Kroxigors, they will be getting some form of additional "crushing" attack for being larger than normal infantry. Not much detail on this yet.
Magic is supposedly up for huge changes.
1) The ENTIRE core spellbook is being re-written, and mega spells possibly being added to each lore. We're talking game-winning spells being a possibility, and who would have a better chance of casting such spells than the mighty Slann? Not to mention the Slann will have access to 8 super spells! I will most likely do a magic roundup for 8th edition, once it comes out and I get my greedy hands on a book.
2) I've heard that spells might be selected, and not rolled for. This would eliminate the need for Focus of Mystery for the most part, though plaque of Tepok will probably be popular for the Slann. That way you just pick one spell NOT to have in each lore, and take the other 5. (Of course assuming each lore still has 6 spells.. if they have more than 6 spells per lore it's a different story!) Depending on how the re-written lores of magic stack up in usefulness, it may only be desirable/necessary to go with the default 4 spells. Though with the skink priests choosing their own spells as well, the plaque might as well go to the Slann. Speculation on my part... will this mean a caster's spell selection will become part of the army list? Not rolling for spells means you can pick spells to specifically complement your own army, but allows for less game-by-game flexibility in tournaments and such. Again, the last bit is my own pure speculation.
3) Irresistable force might be getting a downside. Not much we can do about this, should hit everyone evenly.
4) Miscasts might be less common, but even more devastating. This would make Cupped Hands of the Old Ones a must-have choice on the Slann, to save his bacon and ruin the enemy's day (even moreso than before)! If each of the Lores has a super-spell, it will be really tempting to just launch a ton of dice at it with the Slann, and not worry too much about miscasting so long as you got the Old Ones watching your back.
5) Random pool dice generation. Magic phases will be randomly bigger or smaller based on how many power dice you roll up for each phase. What this says to me is Focus of Rumination is getting even better. Say you roll up more dice than normal, +1 dice per casting attempt on the Slann will make an above average magic phase into a super-devastating one. Not much certainty on how many dice, but it seems you will roll 2d6 at the start of the phase and get bonuses based on how many mages you have. It also makes it sound like casters won't have "their own" dice, so a skink scroll caddy could potentially donate his power dice to the Slann (by way of the power pool). Depending on how this adjusts average number of power dice per phase, bound items like the jag charm could see a bump or a drop in effectiveness (not to mention, they may change what the Steed of Shadows spell does!)
Movement
Moving blocks of troops will be "more flexible", and maneuvers will be enhanced by command models such as champs and musos. Changing the functions of command groups might turn them into something that gets taken on every unit. Increased flexibility will be something our saurus and skink blocks enjoy as well.
Some random element to be added to charging. Either charging will be your normal move + D3 or D6, or charging might grant these bonus rolls on top of what you already get. Some people are dead set against making charging random in any way, but really you will still need to be able to assess ranges. It makes it more like guessing range on a cannon... you have to figure out about how much extra the dice will give you on average. Overall it makes charging less reliable, but the person being charged will also have to weigh his options when fleeing charges... he might flee hoping his charging opponent will roll low and get wiped out for it. I personally don't have a problem with this and think it will add a new element of risk to charging and get rid of the artificial feeling of something charging from almost exactly its maximum charge range. I personally think this will place more importance on manuevering itself and not so much on which model has the higher movement statistic.
Heavy Cavalry 2+ armor or better, can't march. Cold ones won't be the fast strike force they are now, and will be more of a support for the saurus. The upside is, you won't lose much by failing an early stupidity test, they can't march anyway! This might also shift preference towards kroxigors as shock troops, since they will be able to march 12 still and gain bonus crushing attacks.
Autobreak from Fear/Terror is gone. This isn't bad for us really, and actually fear and terror are supposed to add flat combat resolution bonuses to combat. Can you say "flank charging Salamander"? So since Stegadons are immune to psychology, they might have a leg up on terror causers who aren't immune to psych. "I cause terror, so I get +2 combat res." "Well, my stegadon is immune to psych, but he also causes terror". Long live the stegadon! No word on whether the terror tests will stay, but I would assume so at this point.
One save to ruin them all! Basically this means you will only be able to take one save attempt at each wound. So if your Oldblood has 1+ armor and a 5+ ward, against an arrow you could take your armor save, but not your ward save if you fail your armor save. Likewise if your armor bonus is reduced and 5+ ward is better, you take that one. It also seems like the Engine of the gods won't need to protect saurus from shooting anymore, as most shooting will allow the saurus a 4 or 5 plus armor save anyway. This changes if warmachines are on the field, but overall the "shield bubble" is less universally useful. To me this sounds like combat characters will be less durable overall, so if I had to put money on it right now I'd say the Slann will still be the preferred lord choice. Though of course this could change depending on the allowed percentages for characters.
That's all I got for now, really looking forward to this new edition, it should be an improvement if more emphasis is placed on troops.
I did hear one rumour that the BRB would contain scenarios with objectives that would require core units with banners to capture them. Combined with other changes, this might be enough to make skrox units viable with their speed being pretty high for infantry. The trick would be supporting them enough that they can then HOLD the objective. Too early to tell.
There might be some sort of Horde rule, where units 10 wide can fight in 3 ranks and the front row can always attack even if not in base to base contact. 30 skinks costs only 150 points... just sayin! In addition, all shooting units will be allowed to fire in two ranks... this will make a pretty nice stand and shoot reaction with 20 poisoned javelins! Would also help fill out the requirement for 25% core, which seems like a pretty solid rumor at this point. I initially thought it might be cool to do the 10 skink wide skrox horde, but I'm not sure you gain much from this as the skrox can already fight from the second rank anyway. My setup would probably be 22skinks with 2 krox in this setup, if I do choose to run them...
SSSSSSSSSS
SKKSSSSKKS
SKKSSSSKKS
You want the kroxigors for their leadership and fear causing at least (whatever fear will do.. probably something useful). This way the kroxigors will usually get to both fight whatever is in front of the unit and the eight skinks in the middle back ranks will get to throw in their attacks as well, with 16 shots on stand and shoot still. It's all very theoretical still.
Speaking of Kroxigors, they will be getting some form of additional "crushing" attack for being larger than normal infantry. Not much detail on this yet.
Magic is supposedly up for huge changes.
1) The ENTIRE core spellbook is being re-written, and mega spells possibly being added to each lore. We're talking game-winning spells being a possibility, and who would have a better chance of casting such spells than the mighty Slann? Not to mention the Slann will have access to 8 super spells! I will most likely do a magic roundup for 8th edition, once it comes out and I get my greedy hands on a book.
2) I've heard that spells might be selected, and not rolled for. This would eliminate the need for Focus of Mystery for the most part, though plaque of Tepok will probably be popular for the Slann. That way you just pick one spell NOT to have in each lore, and take the other 5. (Of course assuming each lore still has 6 spells.. if they have more than 6 spells per lore it's a different story!) Depending on how the re-written lores of magic stack up in usefulness, it may only be desirable/necessary to go with the default 4 spells. Though with the skink priests choosing their own spells as well, the plaque might as well go to the Slann. Speculation on my part... will this mean a caster's spell selection will become part of the army list? Not rolling for spells means you can pick spells to specifically complement your own army, but allows for less game-by-game flexibility in tournaments and such. Again, the last bit is my own pure speculation.
3) Irresistable force might be getting a downside. Not much we can do about this, should hit everyone evenly.
4) Miscasts might be less common, but even more devastating. This would make Cupped Hands of the Old Ones a must-have choice on the Slann, to save his bacon and ruin the enemy's day (even moreso than before)! If each of the Lores has a super-spell, it will be really tempting to just launch a ton of dice at it with the Slann, and not worry too much about miscasting so long as you got the Old Ones watching your back.
5) Random pool dice generation. Magic phases will be randomly bigger or smaller based on how many power dice you roll up for each phase. What this says to me is Focus of Rumination is getting even better. Say you roll up more dice than normal, +1 dice per casting attempt on the Slann will make an above average magic phase into a super-devastating one. Not much certainty on how many dice, but it seems you will roll 2d6 at the start of the phase and get bonuses based on how many mages you have. It also makes it sound like casters won't have "their own" dice, so a skink scroll caddy could potentially donate his power dice to the Slann (by way of the power pool). Depending on how this adjusts average number of power dice per phase, bound items like the jag charm could see a bump or a drop in effectiveness (not to mention, they may change what the Steed of Shadows spell does!)
Movement
Moving blocks of troops will be "more flexible", and maneuvers will be enhanced by command models such as champs and musos. Changing the functions of command groups might turn them into something that gets taken on every unit. Increased flexibility will be something our saurus and skink blocks enjoy as well.
Some random element to be added to charging. Either charging will be your normal move + D3 or D6, or charging might grant these bonus rolls on top of what you already get. Some people are dead set against making charging random in any way, but really you will still need to be able to assess ranges. It makes it more like guessing range on a cannon... you have to figure out about how much extra the dice will give you on average. Overall it makes charging less reliable, but the person being charged will also have to weigh his options when fleeing charges... he might flee hoping his charging opponent will roll low and get wiped out for it. I personally don't have a problem with this and think it will add a new element of risk to charging and get rid of the artificial feeling of something charging from almost exactly its maximum charge range. I personally think this will place more importance on manuevering itself and not so much on which model has the higher movement statistic.
Heavy Cavalry 2+ armor or better, can't march. Cold ones won't be the fast strike force they are now, and will be more of a support for the saurus. The upside is, you won't lose much by failing an early stupidity test, they can't march anyway! This might also shift preference towards kroxigors as shock troops, since they will be able to march 12 still and gain bonus crushing attacks.
Autobreak from Fear/Terror is gone. This isn't bad for us really, and actually fear and terror are supposed to add flat combat resolution bonuses to combat. Can you say "flank charging Salamander"? So since Stegadons are immune to psychology, they might have a leg up on terror causers who aren't immune to psych. "I cause terror, so I get +2 combat res." "Well, my stegadon is immune to psych, but he also causes terror". Long live the stegadon! No word on whether the terror tests will stay, but I would assume so at this point.
One save to ruin them all! Basically this means you will only be able to take one save attempt at each wound. So if your Oldblood has 1+ armor and a 5+ ward, against an arrow you could take your armor save, but not your ward save if you fail your armor save. Likewise if your armor bonus is reduced and 5+ ward is better, you take that one. It also seems like the Engine of the gods won't need to protect saurus from shooting anymore, as most shooting will allow the saurus a 4 or 5 plus armor save anyway. This changes if warmachines are on the field, but overall the "shield bubble" is less universally useful. To me this sounds like combat characters will be less durable overall, so if I had to put money on it right now I'd say the Slann will still be the preferred lord choice. Though of course this could change depending on the allowed percentages for characters.
That's all I got for now, really looking forward to this new edition, it should be an improvement if more emphasis is placed on troops.
Skink
Fossil Hunter
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I support the idea to bring back the Kroxigor + Skink Horde. Namely becuse I got hit with 2 boxes as a gift a while back so I got almost 70 something skinks skirmishing around in my stash. hehe Skaven Hordes vs Lizard Hordes.
Cold One
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If heavy cavalry can't make march moves anymore and kroxigor get extra crushing attacks then the kroxigor will become pretty good again. I like the models, so that would be nice. I am not sure if the krox will be getting a crushing attack though because they aren't even large targets. If they do give them crushing attacks it would have to wait till the new army book, which will be a long wait.
OldBlood
strewart
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I definitely think the very popular character on steg choices are going to go away. Unless you don't take a lord you simply cannot afford the cost, and its hard to justify them as the general/main character given the rider is still fragile.
Skrox units should be good to go, however, remember with an extra ranks for spears (hand weapons 2 ranks, spears 3) it makes saurus warriors even more irresistable than they were before.
What about TG without a Slann? A second rank fighting makes them very juicy. I guess you need to look at the power vs cost boost relative to other books though. Remember, the benefits lizards get everyone else does too.
I can certainly see my carnosaur taking more of centre stage rather than a Slann now though.
Skrox units should be good to go, however, remember with an extra ranks for spears (hand weapons 2 ranks, spears 3) it makes saurus warriors even more irresistable than they were before.
What about TG without a Slann? A second rank fighting makes them very juicy. I guess you need to look at the power vs cost boost relative to other books though. Remember, the benefits lizards get everyone else does too.
I can certainly see my carnosaur taking more of centre stage rather than a Slann now though.
Ripperdactyl
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I agree that more emphasis on troops is a good thing, and with our solid lineup we really will not be hurt by the rumors.
And skrox units will become almost mandatory imo for scenarios that involve capturing objectves.
All in all I think we will benefit quite nicely from 8th. Our Saurus will get more powerful, skink cohorts and skrox units become truly viable(i know they are to some now, but not everyone agrees). No rumors are hurting our terradons/chameleons/stegadons/sallies/skinks.
The only rumor that I have seen that really hurts is if heavy calvary can't march. This makes our CoR useless imo as they will move less then our already slow Sarurus units, and add stupidity on top of that.
And skrox units will become almost mandatory imo for scenarios that involve capturing objectves.
All in all I think we will benefit quite nicely from 8th. Our Saurus will get more powerful, skink cohorts and skrox units become truly viable(i know they are to some now, but not everyone agrees). No rumors are hurting our terradons/chameleons/stegadons/sallies/skinks.
The only rumor that I have seen that really hurts is if heavy calvary can't march. This makes our CoR useless imo as they will move less then our already slow Sarurus units, and add stupidity on top of that.
I think the "heavy cavalry rule," if there is one in 8th, is mostly applying to 1+, 2+ types. Maybe it'll apply to things with barding. Our COR should be fine, and actually should be a better choice as "medium cavalry" will be the best of both worlds. Good armor and good movement, between Heavy and light.
Carnasaur
Caneghem
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Skrox said:
The rumour was for "ogre-sized" models, or 40mm base models. The new book is making them a separate class of troops and they will be getting some special extra attack, possibly extra hits on the charge like ogres or something.
Strewart said:
What I've seen is that you get to fight in multiple ranks only if you make a "horde" unit of 10 wide. For saurus spears you could fight in up to 4 ranks if you were willing to splurge on a horde of 40 (or maybe 35-36), though I'd probably forgo the spears when taking 30 saurus fighting in three ranks anyway. By my rough calculations, a unit of 40 saurus spears 10 wide could dish out 57(!) attacks with a champion in the unit, since the entire front row would be attacking and assuming six guys in each of the back 3 ranks get to attack. With command that unit would cost 510 points, and nobody could stand up to it. 30 saurus with HW+shield would probably be my version of the "horde" saurus, and they come in at "only" 360, fight in 3 ranks, and have a better save. Seems like a huge unit, but only 10 more than a typical block of 20, just a weird formation.
But yeah, if you can just normally fight in 2 ranks or 3 for spears, saurus will totally rock (even more).
About the best lord choice... it really depends on the percentages. A Slann coming in at 500 points is already 22% of your points, so if the characters cap out at 25% the Slann will likely be toting only a single mage-priest helper (non-EotG), or possibly the jag-charm scar vet (assuming the Slann is trimmed down to 430 or so). At 25% you have 562 points to play with, which allows you to put in your Carno and tune him up to about 400, then probably take one more saurus hero. Though then you'd be lacking magic defense... 25% would be tough!
Which brings us to my next theory... they will in fact cap characters at 25% so that the size of the average game goes up to 2500 or 3000 points! After all, people will want to use their heroes...
OldBlood
strewart
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Good point, Cold ones will take a hit. Correct me if I'm wrong, but cold ones have light armour for an overall 3+ save right? The GW website lists them as not having armour.
I have heard the no marching will only apply to 2+ or better, but recently people are saying 3+ or better means no marching. I think you are right if cold ones can't march they become too slow to use, especially for their points.
I have heard the no marching will only apply to 2+ or better, but recently people are saying 3+ or better means no marching. I think you are right if cold ones can't march they become too slow to use, especially for their points.
Cold ones actually do have a 2+... just looked it up on army builder. It'll be a shame if they can't march because they were one of my hardest hitting/mobile units. They still charge 14 but the won't be leading/following any sweeps around the flank.
They just grant additional armor to the rider. They have scaly skin just like everything else with lizardmen so hopefully the marching rule will only apply to units with barding or something like that.
They just grant additional armor to the rider. They have scaly skin just like everything else with lizardmen so hopefully the marching rule will only apply to units with barding or something like that.
The rumour I read defined heavy cavalry as those granting the unit a 2+AS. Which would include Cold One Cavalry as a heavy cavalry unit and so no marching (also if you look at a cold one's movement... it's already been 'modified' to be equivalent to most cavalry with barding at 7).
I honestly think the % cap (and assuming slots are kept) will be to push the game size up to 3000 unfortunately :/
I honestly think the % cap (and assuming slots are kept) will be to push the game size up to 3000 unfortunately :/
Troglodon
hellbreaker
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And I don't even have the full 2250pt army I want yet... They're not painted either.
Why are you trying to kill everything I like about your game, GW? Why?
Other than that, if the rumour about mounts not being counted for the hero % is true, what happens to the Carnosaur?
Cheers!
Why are you trying to kill everything I like about your game, GW? Why?
Other than that, if the rumour about mounts not being counted for the hero % is true, what happens to the Carnosaur?
Cheers!
Cold One
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Cold ones riders have 5+ scaly skin, get +2 from cold ones thick skin, and they carry shields, for a total of 2+. This will really change how our cavalry works, but it also changes how heroes work. Alot of people mount their heroes for the extra movement, but if they can't march then its not nearly as useful. I know he isn't cavalry but depending on the wording even the carnosaur could fall into this 2+ armor save or better cannot march rule. If that is the case alot changes.
I hadn't heard a rumor that mounts won't count toward the character point limit but that would be cool, seeing as how our army would benefit more than any other if this was the case, and be hurt more than any other if it wasn't. If we don't have to count the mounts points then we probably won't need to move the average game size up to 3000. Just run less bloated slann.
I hadn't heard a rumor that mounts won't count toward the character point limit but that would be cool, seeing as how our army would benefit more than any other if this was the case, and be hurt more than any other if it wasn't. If we don't have to count the mounts points then we probably won't need to move the average game size up to 3000. Just run less bloated slann.
Monstrous mounts don't grant the rider a save. So that shouldn't be a problem there... although... stegs do kinda don't they? Wouldn't that suck if Stegadons couldn't march.... so much for your EoTG with a war drum.
I've heard some people suggesting that maybe mounts will count towards whatever slot they'd normally fall into (so an A.Steg would count against a hypothetical 15% rare cap, instead of adding to the character cap)... but haven't seen that one really listed in any of the news sites rumour lists...just thrown out on message boards.
I've heard some people suggesting that maybe mounts will count towards whatever slot they'd normally fall into (so an A.Steg would count against a hypothetical 15% rare cap, instead of adding to the character cap)... but haven't seen that one really listed in any of the news sites rumour lists...just thrown out on message boards.