Qestion of ethincs.... new to warhammer

[KroxigorsFTW]

Hi gus, im new to warhammer and soon going to have a 2000 point game, and my oponent dropped a sort of hint saying "hero hammer is unfair." I asked him what it was, and he said it was playing a force with something like a 400-500 point character.


My question is, is that really that bad? It doesn't seems so bad, considering all the D3 wonds thing etc. I know its not against the rules or anything, but, it does seem a little powerful, he (my opponent) could manage, but like the title says, its more a question of ethics.

 

[strewart]

4-500 points for heroes in a 2k army is actually not too bad... If you take a lord and a hero or two, that is about what you would expect to pay in most armies. Closer to 1000 points is getting extremely hero heavy, however, in a lot of cases it isn't actually that overpowered, just gives you a very small army and heay reliance on one or two models that are often still quite killable.

Too powerful in characters can often include special characters as well, they are almost always heavily unbalanced and a bit one dimensional to play. Also very heavy magic will cost you a lot of points and can be quite powerful.

For LM, there are several ways to play the army. If you go magic, a Slann and priest on engine maybe supported by another character will cost you 800 or so points, and provides a lot of magic but is not neccesarily overpowered. Similarly, an old blood on carnosaur backed by an engine and support character is 7-800 points and not overpowered.

Welcome to the forum and to warhammer!

 

[Barotok]

Check out the thread entitled "How to Handle the Cheese" for discussion on this subject in the "Lizardmen Tactics" forum: http://www.lustria-online.com/threads/how-to-handle-cheese-updated-july-13th-09.1686/

Sounds like your opponent wants to see you make a balanced list. When you're spending over 400-500 points for a single character, that does seem a bit much and typically you only see special characters in this class. There are always exceptions to this rule, but thats the steriotypical view, unless you play Daemons.

 

[Sammy the Squib]

I used to run a 600 pt slann, but that was in the last book. Don't know how much he'd cost now, but he'd probably be in the 4-500 pt area

 

[strewart]

Ahh looks like I misread a little bit, I thought you meant 4-500 points for all characters not just one. Woops. 500 points is getting expensive for one character, yes, but is typical if you have a mount like a dragon or carnosaur, they often end up being the turning point in the battle depending on whether they do well or die.

 

[silversquire]

what is an engine?

i know what an Engine of the gods is but could someonne define it in the way you all use it?

seems quite common just not explained...

 

[strewart]

Yeah engine is simply short for engine of the gods, so same thing.

It is best used as support in the early part of the game, and flanking in the later stages. The priest on top is very vulnerable, most fast cavalry type units can kill him so you need to be a bit careful of what you expose the engine to. It is best to keep it between your units near the centre of your line, but back a bit from the main line, so early on it can provide the ward save to as much as possible and be relatively safe from threats. Up close, well it is still an ancient stegadon so you do not want to waste the combat potential there, and the burning alignment ability is very powerful. Just don't let the priest go toe to toe with any characters or he will die. Hope that helps.

 

[KroxigorsFTW]

Ahh looks like I misread a little bit, I thought you meant 4-500 points for all characters not just one. Woops. 500 points is getting expensive for one character, yes, but is typical if you have a mount like a dragon or carnosaur, they often end up being the turning point in the battle depending on whether they do well or die.

I just meant the one character, even though i'm a noob, i had my Army book since last ed, i was actually about to start a collection ages ago, and my friend told me of the new book, so since then, i've been reading everything fantasy i could find, and jotting down lists like crazy.


I was thinking of an Oldblood on Carnosaur, which is already almost 400 points.... then gear etc and before i know it, he's like 450. It seems i have to make one that will get gunned down by 2-3 cannons or just have like an engine, another priest, BSB and a Scar-Vet for general status.


I don't really want to use all these heroes, but i don't want to have something that basically has a sign saying "cannon balls go here" on the guys head.


I know this is now veering off to tactics, but i thought i'd share my situation, but what i really need is opinions on a 4-500 point character in 2000 point games, as its been said, my oponent seems to think its bad, yet he's the one with the 2 cannons to mulch characters. This is why i need advice, i'll be posting a list in the AL forum soon, so if you wanna look over it, i'd apreciate it.


And, thanks for the welcome strewart.

 

[strewart]

A carnosaur is no longer a large target which makes it quite easy to hide, and cannons deploy before characters so you should be able to deploy him out of sight of at least one, if not both, of the cannons. Heavy shooting is just one of the things you will face sometimes, and sometimes it will eat your most expensive unit/model in the first turn and suck, but you just have to keep playing and see what you can do.

A carnosaur is a pretty cool choice if you want to take one. You should put less emphasise on what your opponent has, and more on what you actually want to field. It should still play a factor, but not too much, because you need to be able to enjoy your army too. And be prepared to enter a lot of games where you don't know what your opponent has until its on the field.

Make sure you have some terradons around to deal with the cannons early.

 

[KroxigorsFTW]

A carnosaur is no longer a large target which makes it quite easy to hide, and cannons deploy before characters so you should be able to deploy him out of sight of at least one, if not both, of the cannons. Heavy shooting is just one of the things you will face sometimes, and sometimes it will eat your most expensive unit/model in the first turn and suck, but you just have to keep playing and see what you can do.

A carnosaur is a pretty cool choice if you want to take one. You should put less emphasise on what your opponent has, and more on what you actually want to field. It should still play a factor, but not too much, because you need to be able to enjoy your army too. And be prepared to enter a lot of games where you don't know what your opponent has until its on the field.

Make sure you have some terradons around to deal with the cannons early.

Yeah, he just gave me a vauge idea of what shooting things he had (becaue my first 2 750 games were lost to Dwarfs with a Grudge thrower, like 15 hunderers, a rune smith and 2 units of 15-ish dwarfs, with slayer. Basically, anything in the open was shot to.... erm... you know what, and my AG was challenged by his slayer and killed.... while all those dwarfs held up my units.... damn S3 T4 midgets....)

I've now written a list without a 'Saur. The terradons are a worry of mine, i think wasn't sure how big they should be... i've got a unit of 4 and a chief to accompany them so far. I'll post thelist (in a different topic) soon.

 

[strewart]

4+ chief is pretty big. With those points, I would go for 2 units of 3 instead, maybe 3 and 4 if you wanted. They are only meant to be light units, and the more seperate targets you can threaten at once the better.

Dwarfs are indeed very nasty, especially in the hands of a good Dwarf player who is willing to play a boring game. They can just corner themselves and shoot the crap out of you with powerful artillery, then when your weakened units finally reach their full strength tough as nails units you bounce right off them anyway. I haven't found a surefire way to beat them, luckily my Dwarf opponent is prone to making mistakes which often gives me a chance.

 

[KroxigorsFTW]

4+ chief is pretty big. With those points, I would go for 2 units of 3 instead, maybe 3 and 4 if you wanted. They are only meant to be light units, and the more seperate targets you can threaten at once the better.

Dwarfs are indeed very nasty, especially in the hands of a good Dwarf player who is willing to play a boring game. They can just corner themselves and shoot the crap out of you with powerful artillery, then when your weakened units finally reach their full strength tough as nails units you bounce right off them anyway. I haven't found a surefire way to beat them, luckily my Dwarf opponent is prone to making mistakes which often gives me a chance.

Well, the topic is now posted and has advice on it, the chief is mainly there to reflec any MM fire that comes their way.

Those dwarfs were mad, the thunderers were about 4" from a table edge and so could see almost anyhting (and with no terain, or skink screen) i got shot to crap. Grrrr, hate dwarfs now.

Lucky you with the makes mistakes thing...

 

[strewart]

Definitely make sure you play on a table with at least some terrain, ESPECIALLY against shooting armies like Dwarfs. Slowly marching your army across an open field is going to get them massacred as you found out. At least with some terrain around you can hide a few things and hamper his deployment a bit.

 

[KroxigorsFTW]

Definitely make sure you play on a table with at least some terrain, ESPECIALLY against shooting armies like Dwarfs. Slowly marching your army across an open field is going to get them massacred as you found out. At least with some terrain around you can hide a few things and hamper his deployment a bit.

Oh yeah... definatly never playing a game with no terrain again. Thank for the help.