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AoS Saurus Guards' effectiveness?

Discussion in 'Seraphon Tactics' started by Xasto, Aug 7, 2017.

  1. Killer Angel
    Skink Priest

    Killer Angel Prophet of the Stars Staff Member

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    Guards without a warden are not exceptional.
    Guards in the Bloodclaw are less strong than with Eternal, however they can have the support of many heroes and that helps greatly... but nothing stops you to take a warden outside the Bloodclaw, enjoining the additional attack.
     
    Aginor likes this.
  2. Aginor
    Slann

    Aginor Fifth Spawning

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    I would say they are decent but you may want to put them together in a bigger group and buff those by keeping a Sunblood, Scarvet on Carno or Oldblood near them.

    Edit: and yeah, an eternity warden too if you can.
     
  3. Krissey
    Skink

    Krissey New Member

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    Actually, the Eternity Warden is listed as one of the heroes which can be chosen to fulfill the job.

    I was thinking of bringing a list such as:

    Leaders:

    Oldblood on Carno
    Scarvet on Carno with Sword
    Scar-Vet on Cold One
    Sunblood
    Skink Starpriest

    Battleline:
    40 Saurus Warriors Alpha, Wardrums, Icon, Spears
    10 Saurus Guard Alpha, Wardrums, Icon
    10 Saurus Knights Alpha, Wardrums, Icon, Lances
    20 Skinks with Alpha, Boltspitters & Shields

    Artillery:

    2 Razordons

    Then I began to wonder "Is the Guard worth taking? Are the Knights worth taking? Should instead I just bring only Warriors?" I was wondering, with all the other buffs flying around with the Starpriest, Oldblood, Scarvet on CO and Carno, and Sunblood would they see some value.

    For instance give them the serpent venom via Starpriest, then activate all the command abilities. This way when they roll a 6 on hit they can take 1 extra attack, they can re-roll charge rolls and hit rolls of 1, they could re-roll straight up failed hit-rolls, plus I believe they'd have 12 Bravery and +3 saves due to so many dang heroes. Not to mention they can also deal twice the normal damage with a bite attack AND due to the Battalion buff (1 extra attack with vicious jaws and shields) they can make 2 attacks for more chances at 6 for more chances at double wounds. That's pretty strong...right? Does it make up for the lack of Eternal Warden? Should they be fielded in group of only 15?

    However would such buffs be best used on Warriors? Knights? Does the Guard serve any real purpose here? They're pretty expensive. They're not fast. I heard they're better as defensive units than offensive units by reading through the tactics unit reviews and battalion analysis. Am I wasting my time bringing them? Same questions for the knights. Is it best to just run pure Warriors? I could bring an Eternity Warden, but should I replace the Sunblood? Should I drop the Scar Veteran on Cold-One instead and the knights?

    I heard the Bloodclaw absolutely 100% MUST have shooting support and magic support so of course I can't cut the Starpriest. Should I bring only 5 knights or 5 guards? Is 5 guards good on its own or too measly to be worth 100 points?

    Despite all I've read (every unit analysis, every battalion review, how to make them work, multiple threads including every word in this one) I still have no idea what's worth it, when, why, and how. :(
     
  4. Killer Angel
    Skink Priest

    Killer Angel Prophet of the Stars Staff Member

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    I know. But the starhost let you use the command ability of each hero, and the command ability of the warden is... nothing. So, better to pick (in the starhost) heroes with command abilities, and field the warden outside the starhost.

    Sure, guards are costly and the starhost is an excellent battalion, but it's fucused on melee, so you need to cover things as magic and shooting.

    BATTLELINE:
    20 skinks are bad. go for 10 to have a fast unit to screen and take objectives, or take 40 to use the horde bonuses.
    40 warriors are good
    Knights are a poor unit, but 10 of them, buffed by the serpent staff and the scarvet on CO, cando some good damage with their bites.
    If you cannot afford the warden, then leave home the guards.

    Pick another caster (Starseer?) and upgrade the razors to a group of 4
     
  5. Seraphage
    Stegadon

    Seraphage Well-Known Member

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    @Krissey the 40/10/10 idea could work. Make the x20 skinks into 10 and make the razordons 4 as @Killer Angel suggested.
    The 10 knights should go in first, fully buffed by all the command abilities. They become way more reliable this way.
    Definetely keep the starpriest. You will be in need of summon starlight most of the time. Mystic shield is always useful and that arcane bolt may finish something and release your unit in order to charge something else.

    A blob of saurus guard can work outside of an eternal starhost as they are solid but only with a mystic shield on. Without it, you are gonna lose 20 points unless you roll a 3+. That's 1/3 dead without mentioning the -2 rend chance. And there are many units that can pepper many non rend attacks taht will hurt you lots. Again, as previously mentioned, eternity warden doesnt make sense outside the eternal batallion.

    This should be fun to play and nothing to be laughed at also !
     
  6. Canas
    Skar-Veteran

    Canas Well-Known Member

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    see this thread :p

    Short anwser: within the bloodclaw host guards are fairly expensive and don't benefit as much from the starhost as warriors or Knights, on top of that the warden is virtually pointless in this starhost apart from helping your guards. They can potentially be used as a more "elite" core to your army, but it's more effective and efficient to just take an eternal starhost, guards simply aren't that good outside of the eternal starhost and the other units simply benefit far more from the actual battalion.
     
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2017
  7. Seraphage
    Stegadon

    Seraphage Well-Known Member

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    Just for the history of it, I jusr realised that the Warden is our only hero that deals 2 damage. Next to a Oldblood general and a -1 artifact this could be a high rend solution for us..
     
  8. Aginor
    Slann

    Aginor Fifth Spawning

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    Not quite. An Oldblood with Greatblade also does 2 damage and has rend as well, and a Command Ability.
    I still agree that the Eternity Warden is not too bad on his own. Just lacking some synergies.
    Still useful outside of a Starhost IMO, as a personal protector for a Slann for example.
     
  9. Krissey
    Skink

    Krissey New Member

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    So I could go two ways with this:

    Leaders:

    Oldblood on Carno
    Scarvet on Carno with Sword
    Scar-Vet on Cold One
    Sunblood
    Skink Starpriest
    Saurus Eternity Warden

    Battleline:
    40 Saurus Warriors Alpha, Wardrums, Icon, Spears
    10 Saurus Guard Alpha, Wardrums, Icon
    10 Saurus Knights Alpha, Wardrums, Icon, Lances

    Artillery:

    2 Razordons

    Or the other way

    Leaders:

    Oldblood on Carno
    Scarvet on Carno with Sword
    Scar-Vet on Cold One
    Sunblood
    Skink Starpriest
    Skink Starpriest

    Battleline:
    40 Saurus Warriors Alpha, Wardrums, Icon, Spears
    10 Saurus Guard Alpha, Wardrums, Icon
    10 Saurus Warriors Alpha, Wardrums, Icon, Lances
    10 Skinks with Alpha, Boltspitters & Shields

    Artillery:

    4 Razordons

    That way I get 2 magic users, 10 skinks, 4 Razordons which adds some ballistics support. The other list is almost 100% melee minus the 1 caster and 2 Razordons. Either looks fun?

    Otherwise I may devise another, different, list to make use out of my Guards. I had ended up buying 2 Start Collecting! boxes, 1 box of guards (because the guy at the store assured me they were the cornerstone super stars of the Seraphon army and 100% must have no matter what), and a Skink Starpriest.

    So now I'm trying to figure out the best configuration to make the use of what I got lol

    Regardless at some point I know for sure I need 1 box of skinks minimum, 1 more box of Warriors minimum and after that who knows. Salamanders, Razordons, flyers, other big dinosaurs. The Seraphon army is so adaptable, but I wanted my first army to be melee heavy and killy, and basically the total opposite of the giant shooty-fest that 40k is (to me).

    Imperial Guardsmen shooting literally with a range of 240 FEET...just blasting my infantry off the board like they're nothing. It's hard to run a melee killy list in 40k. So for now I'm just trying to get a melee killy type list up and going and wasn't sure what to do with my box of guards.

    At least they all look cool... like, honestly super cool. I love their heads, helmets, adornments, etc but I want to find the right fit for them in the right army, right place, right time type dealio.

    It seems to me perhaps I could make an ALTERNATE list with the Eternal Starhost and maybe supported by a Shadowstrike Starhost?

    Then I could have 2 armies. 1 melee killy and one...shooty...and...whatever the Eternal Starhost is good for. I swear I've read the article but it just sort of seems to be a defensive wall?
     
  10. Seraphage
    Stegadon

    Seraphage Well-Known Member

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    I never said anything about putting Eternity Warden into the Bloodclaw. I said put it near and Ob Carno leader to benefit from the +2 attacks. ( I most of the times go for a Slann as a leader )
    2 attacks with a 4+ instead of 3 attacks with a 3+ has a big difference for me though. Although given his ability, if I also had a Sunblood with a command trait - thus a Bloodclaw batallion - I would prefer him any day due to the reroll failed wounds that is our solo unit doing that along with the Kroxigors BUT

    even then : No official FAQ exists on the replacement of Scarvet on Foot with Oldblood on Foot has been released yet and I always build lists officially :(
     
  11. GingerGiant
    Skink

    GingerGiant Member

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    According to the current compendium, the replacement for Saurus Scar-Veteran is the Saurus Oldblood.

    I'm partial to this Bloodclaw list, which makes use of that fact:

    Allegiance: Seraphon

    Leaders
    Slann Starmaster (260)
    - General
    - Trait: Vast Intellect
    - Artefact: Light of Dracothion

    Saurus Oldblood on Carnosaur (280)
    Saurus Scar-Veteran on Carnosaur (240)
    - Warblade
    - Artefact: Blade of Realities

    Saurus Scar-Veteran on Cold One (100)
    Saurus Oldblood (120)
    - War Spear

    Battleline
    5 x Saurus Knights (100)
    - Lances
    - Seraphon Battleline

    5 x Saurus Knights (100)
    - Lances
    - Seraphon Battleline

    40 x Saurus Warriors (360)
    - Clubs, yes, really.
    10 x Skinks (60)
    - Boltspitters & Star Bucklers

    Behemoths
    Troglodon (180)

    Battalions
    Bloodclaw Starhost (200)

    Total: 2000 / 2000

    I can see why someone might bring Guard outside of an Eternal Starhost, but I think the Eternal Starhost gives them exactly what they need: a 2+ Save. The Bloodclaw Starhost is "okay" for Saurus Guard. In fact, I'd strongly consider bringing an Eternity Warden over a Sunblood if I included Saurus Guard, on account of the million different ways to get rerolls on the Saurus, including the Scar-Veteran on Cold One. Sunblood is just not that appealing to me unless I'm running Sunclaw.

    If you drop the Slann and Troglodon and roll Allegiance: Order, you can include another bunch of Skinks and a Celestial Hurricanum for even more Saurian Savagery.
     
  12. Canas
    Skar-Veteran

    Canas Well-Known Member

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    The advantage of a sunblood though is that the actuall model itself is quite good. An eternity warden is kind of meh, its main gimmick being the interaction with a slann, or with the guard.

    And as for guard in the sunblood host.. they're just too expensive and don't really get going... Might not be the worst combination, but especially if you start facing opponents with great damage output (be it mortal or normal wounds) the lack of sheer wound count & the mediocre save that has outside an eternal host will be extremely noticeable.
     
  13. GingerGiant
    Skink

    GingerGiant Member

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    I think that if you intend to bring Saurus Guard in the Bloodclaw Starhost, whatever your reason may be, that the Eternity Warden should not be overlooked for one of the heroes in the Starhost, since it will save you points over filling that slot with another hero and running the Warden outside the Bloodclaw Starhost. You could also drop the Scar-Veteran on Cold One for the Eternity Warden, instead. I agree, the Bloodclaw Starhost is not a great place for Saurus Guard, but if you insist on bringing them in it, I think you could do a lot worse than include the Eternity Warden in it.
     
  14. Canas
    Skar-Veteran

    Canas Well-Known Member

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    True, though it might be beneficial to take the eternity warden outside of the bloodclaw as just a random unit in that case. He doesn't particularly benefit from it anyway, but still gives all his buffs. But that does require having the points to spare.
     
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  15. Full Metal Maggot
    Skink

    Full Metal Maggot Member

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    As an update after LVO: I finished 8th place with only loss coming from opponent slowplaying and denying me my turn (which I would proceed to move onto an objective and win.) Saurus Guard in an eternal starhost are REALLY good if you're using them correctly. The list I took was

    Kroak
    Astrolith
    Warden
    Priest
    Priest
    5 Guard
    5 Guard
    5 Guard.
    10 Skinks
    10 Skinks
    4 Razordons
    Bastiladon

    100 summoning points. (Balewind or starpriest.)

    Those 3 squads of 5 over 7 games killed 30 tzaangors, 6 skin wolves, 9 skyfires, 6 Bloodcrushers, Archaon, a bloodthirster, 5 Judicators, 3 Vanguard Raptors, 3 Paladin Retributers, 3 stormcast leaders, 10 pink horrors, 80 Pestilens rats, 5 Blight Kings 30 Chaos warriors, a Great unclean one, 6 varanguard, 2 seekers of slaanesh, 10 blood warriors and 20 demonettes. And too many marauders and brimstone horrors to count.

    In total I lost 2 of the squads in 1 game fully and another game I lost all 3 squads against a nurgle/ pestilens army. In every other game they lived to the end.

    The only reason I am going to be forced to use warriors over guard now is the newest FAQs from GW. The top 2 lists that are going to be dominating the meta for a while will be changehost and Aetherstrike which are both very hard matchups.
     
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  16. Aginor
    Slann

    Aginor Fifth Spawning

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    Looks like a well balanced Kroaknado list.
    Guards to block the normal stuff, and enough ranged attacks to make some damage, Skinks to chaff.

    Good job!
     
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  17. Full Metal Maggot
    Skink

    Full Metal Maggot Member

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    Thanks. Those guard did a number on everything. The trickiest one was the tzaangors. I bottlenecked his 30 guys into my 5 guard standing between 2 mystical terrain features. the tzaangors pile in was so awkward so he could stay 3 inches from the terrain and not risk being befuddled while my other saurus guard blocks went around and trapped him in there. His swings at me were severely crippled due to lack of models able to base me while I was chewing through them fast and furious. Kroak and the basti with their reach were still able to reach over the guard and swing in to help too.
     
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  18. Canas
    Skar-Veteran

    Canas Well-Known Member

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    Did the lists you face have very limited mortal wounds or where they somehow not focussing the guard? Cuz some of the stuff you're listing there should be more than capable of decimating them fairly reliably (though the princip[le behind the list is good)
     
  19. Killer Angel
    Skink Priest

    Killer Angel Prophet of the Stars Staff Member

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    What are you referring to?
    I see just a clarifications that the bonus of Sworn Guardians applies (as logical) to the guards' unit and not to the nearby hero...
     
  20. Canas
    Skar-Veteran

    Canas Well-Known Member

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    tbh, giving the hero a +1 to save isn't too weird, or even OP provided you don't claim it stacks. Given that a warden can jump in front of incoming attacks for a Slann this'd be logical implementation of guards helping the hero they're protecting in a similar way. The hero gets a higher "save" as there's a guard blocking attacks aiming at him, covering his back and such. In hindsight it's kind of a shame the guards don't have a rule like that.
     

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