WHTW2 tactics discussion

[Canas]

I was really excited when they announced the dread saurian. I knew that it couldn't be too overpowered, but I didn't expect it to be able to be completely melted by any ranged fire at all. I mean, the thing should at least have some missile resistance for being a giant monster with a supposedly tough hide, right? Also, they need to improve it's pathing a lot. It gets stuck on everything. I recently did a siege where I had my agent damage the walls beforehand. The Shredder of Lustria just stood there unable to figure out how to go through the gap in the wall, and I had to send it over to attack the gate while the rest of my army poured in through seven pre-made holes in the enemy walls, lol!

Ranged fire is often simply overpowerd in TW games, especially the warhammer ones. I think it might not so much be that the saurian is weak, just that concentrated fire melts things. And since it's so huge noone ever misses. So if they'd want to make it survive on resistance it'd need an absolutly humongous amount of resistance to deal with the more ridiculous attacks (say a high elve army), at which point weak ranged attacks, like empire crossbows, become utterly pointless against it. Neither of which is a very good state to be in.

 

[bOdziO Wolf]

If you setup enough amount of Waywatchers you melt 1 or 2 units before they run to you.
Dread Saurian not being able to do anything in siege battles is a bad design IMHO, and yeah the Dread cannot go through the gates...

 

[Killer Angel]

Dread Saurian not being able to do anything in siege battles is a bad design IMHO, and yeah the Dread cannot go through the gates...

It's a freaking four legged predator lizard, the size of a palace. It should simply be able to climb and surpass the walls!

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

, and yeah the Dread cannot go through the gates...

Poor Dread Saurian! Apparently it doesn't fare all that well in multiplayer either.

 

[bOdziO Wolf]

Climbing and ability to pick up units would actually make this unit viable... at all

 

[Kilvakar]

It can get through a broken gate, but you don't want a bunch of other units rushing through at the same time or they'll all get stuck. It doesn't seem to be able to get through the holes created in the wall when your skink chief does the damage walls action. Although, when that happened to me it was on a High Elven city wall, so maybe other wall types work.

That said, with the Lizardmen having overall weak ranged units, what do people usually do to counter ranged-heavy builds such as the High Elves, Empire, Wood Elves, etc?

 

[bOdziO Wolf]

Ripperdactyls on vanguard work pretty well, though I don't know if we are talking about campaign or custom games.

 

[ASSASSIN_NR_1]

Also, they need to improve it's pathing a lot.

They tried to address this in the last patch

It can get through a broken gate, but you don't want a bunch of other units rushing through at the same time or they'll all get stuck. It doesn't seem to be able to get through the holes created in the wall when your skink chief does the damage walls action. Although, when that happened to me it was on a High Elven city wall, so maybe other wall types work.

I haven't run into that problem, so it can get through some broken walls
I also haven't had any problems getting it through gates, but the general gate bug is annoying as always.

 

[bOdziO Wolf]

Wait, you were able to fit DS through the gate? How?! :O

 

[Canas]

That said, with the Lizardmen having overall weak ranged units, what do people usually do to counter ranged-heavy builds such as the High Elves, Empire, Wood Elves, etc?

run at em and flank em. Not much else to do really.

 

[ASSASSIN_NR_1]

Wait, you were able to fit DS through the gate? How?! :O

Guess the DS didn't know he couldn't fit

Really I don't know, I guess the broken walls aren't always the same size depending on which faction the settlement is themed after. I just clicked for him to go through and he did no problem.

 

[Canas]

Guess the DS didn't know he couldn't fit

Really I don't know, I guess the broken walls aren't always the same size depending on which faction the settlement is themed after. I just clicked for him to go through and he did no problem.

I think it depends on where the walls break, or if for example 2 adjecent sections happen to break.

 

[bOdziO Wolf]

In case you needed a rush composition for Nakai. I won the campaign at turn 43 on Very Hard/Very Hard

 

[Canas]

damn that's quick..

 

[bOdziO Wolf]

AI Gor Rok is surprisingly very helpful in this battle and Itzl Blessing that gives you 3 summons of Razordons (best unit against armored stuff) and 3 summons of Feral Cold Ones is making Marcus AI's life miserable

 

[Canas]

meh, last campaign I did I gave up after one of the first quest battles. I first got screwed by my vassals being useless and the AI attacking from multiple fronts so I kept having to run back and forth to try and actually hold some terrain, and unable to really achieve anything cuz of it, then when I finally reached that quest battle the slann I was supposed to save promptly decided to die by the time while I had barely engaged the skaven army that initially blocks your path towards him. Which also was a weirdly powerfull army. The difficulty felt rather weird to be honest... The kroxigor also performed weirdly for most of that campaign. Sometimes they'd utterly destroy whatever they were facing, but I also saw them nearly get butchered by 2 units of skaven slaves with spears, which just what the hell happened there?

 

[bOdziO Wolf]

Speaking about quest battles for Nakai I ignored both Lord Kroak (quest line for him appeared super late) and the quest in Avalon where you fight against OP Chaos Army (you are just given a useless item).

So about Kroxigors. In order to use them effectively you must upgrade them and care about, so they get gold ranks.
Gold ranks open the doors for a huge buffs from your lord. Itzl temples also upgrade their stats and most importantly there is a rite to upgrade Kroxigors as well. This combined gives you a nice set of crocodile people to wreck infantry and flank horses.
Now the last part of the sentence is pretty important and here is why you had problem with spears. You flank horses, but not fight with them for too long otherwise unoccupied archers will destroy you. Same goes for halberds. Kroxigors power lies in charge bonus and halberds/spears negate charge bonus, so you avoid them like fire )) Fortunately Razordons can shoot halberds pretty well, hence I brought couple of them and I upgraded their line from Lord Red Skill Tree.

On a sidenote this is probably the only campaign I DONT recommend at Legendary. I had to load games few times because I ended up getting sandwiched by 2 full armies on the march stance. CA greatly reduced vision in the current patch AND Nakai is so poor you have to keep all your heroes together to be effective, so scouting was limited.

 

[Canas]

So about Kroxigors. In order to use them effectively you must upgrade them and care about, so they get gold ranks.
Gold ranks open the doors for a huge buffs from your lord. Itzl temples also upgrade their stats and most importantly there is a rite to upgrade Kroxigors as well. This combined gives you a nice set of crocodile people to wreck infantry and flank horses.

O it was far too early into the game for that. Though I'd find it weird if they're that dependend on their various upgrades.

Now the last part of the sentence is pretty important and here is why you had problem with spears. You flank horses, but not fight with them for too long otherwise unoccupied archers will destroy you. Same goes for halberds. Kroxigors power lies in charge bonus and halberds/spears negate charge bonus, so you avoid them like fire ))

I know. However, do note that they were fighting freaking skaven slaves. The most cannonfoddery of cannonfodder units who are supposed to get slaughtered by basicly anything and break morale when under even the slightest amount of stress. Yet somehow the kroxigor where struggling to get through them. I mean sure, they have a spear bonus so it might not be the most effective use of kroxigor. But they shouldn't be a credible threat either as the kroxigor should simply slaughter them slaughter by the dozens.

 

[bOdziO Wolf]

O it was far too early into the game for that. Though I'd find it weird if they're that dependend on their various upgrades.

First upgrade from Itzl Red Temples hits at 5 temples, so this should be pretty quickie. Rite is available almost at the beginning of the game if I remember correctly too. Red Skill Tree can be hit from level 2 (or level 3, because I always take Route Marcher first). I agree however the most blessings come with gold rank still, but early game lizard upgrades are really effective too!

I usually never use mass Kroxigors because well, they don't do very well, but here, due to additional upgrades (Temples and Rite) they are actually useful finally

I know. However, do note that they were fighting freaking skaven slaves. The most cannonfoddery of cannonfodder units who are supposed to get slaughtered by basicly anything and break morale when under even the slightest amount of stress. Yet somehow the kroxigor where struggling to get through them. I mean sure, they have a spear bonus so it might not be the most effective use of kroxigor. But they shouldn't be a credible threat either as the kroxigor should simply slaughter them slaughter by the dozens.

Were Kroxigors stationary? I usually get most value of them when they constantly chase something. And if this something is about to be broken, move (run) to the next target. Stationary they are not doing too well. And that is where I learned to use Skink Chief to damage walls, otherwise sieges were brutal.

 

[Canas]

First upgrade from Itzl Red Temples hits at 5 temples, so this should be pretty quickie. Rite is available almost at the beginning of the game if I remember correctly too. Red Skill Tree can be hit from level 2 (or level 3, because I always take Route Marcher first). I agree however the most blessings come with gold rank still, but early game lizard upgrades are really effective too!

I usually never use mass Kroxigors because well, they don't do very well, but here, due to additional upgrades (Temples and Rite) they are actually useful finally

It was my first run with Nakai & I was mostly screwing around, trying to make a full kroxigor army, so wouldn't be surprised if I did some stuff suboptimally. Also, the AI attacking me from every possible front and forcing me to run back and forth rather screwed things up.

Were Kroxigors stationary? I usually get most value of them when they constantly chase something. And if this something is about to be broken, move (run) to the next target. Stationary they are not doing too well. And that is where I learned to use Skink Chief to damage walls, otherwise sieges were brutal.

Can't remember. Mostly just found their fluctuating performance asthonishing as they'd sometimes crush high value targets while others times struggle to deal with the most basic of opponents without any real apparent reason. Maybe the AI was just using all his magic to buff his skaven slaves to asthonishing heights for some reason, idunno. It was weird.