Give all Saurus an ability to deal a MW on a hit roll of 6+ on their jaws to represent them tearing the throat out of an enemy, a small extra buff that causes a pause for though without being stupidly OP? Could even allow the Serpent Venom ability to double it to give it that little bit of extra... bite
Saurus are not better. Liberators are (in minimum groups). Liberators will be significantly tankier in any situation thanks to their shields (against rend - they have 24 effective wounds to our 15, against rend -1 16 against our 15, with rend -2 12 against our 10, only with rend -3 or against mortal wounds do we become equally squishy as neither has a save left). The difference in damage output is relativly minor, with the liberators pulling ahead against heroes and other big stuff. Plus this difference is off-set by their better survival anyway, since they're so much more tanky they get in far more hits over the course of a battle as they won't lose half their unit during the first round. The bravery is relativly unimportant as with a minimum squad you're unlikely to ever suffer battleshock, and again, they're tanky enough to require quite some punishment to die anyway (you'd need at least 2 deaths, which'd require almost 10 effective wounds, 10 effective wounds wipes out over half our unit and would trigger battleshock with us to...). They're slower while running (unless they get lucky), but otherwise the same speed. In short; they're massivly more tanky, hit roughly the same, the difference in bravery is irrelevant in minimum sized squads. The only advantage we have is that we run more reliably. And although positioning is valuable, the inability to charge after running is kind of an issue with a melee unit. As for skinks. With 10 clubs at -1 rend and 20 bites the warriors would be actually capable of holding an objective instead of retreating the moment someone comes to contest it. I'd say that's more than sufficient to pick them over skinks. Skinks keep the niche of having ranged attacks and being faster. Saurus of actually being able to win a melee fight. Kroxigor can be our scary hammers alongside knights, rippers/terradons & our offensive behemoths. Guard can be our anvils alongside bastiladon. Warriors our main battleline, skinks our skirmishers/objective grabbers. Razordons and salamanders our supporting artillery. Everyone has a nice niche.
fair enough i still just wan't a infantry unit that can kill things most factions have one and it would be to bad if we missed out.
to narrow down what currently needs fixing. what do you think all the different rolls in the game are? and where do our units currently fit?
Here is what I think the rolls are Slann- summoner/main wizard Skink priest- support wizard/monster buffer Skink starpriest- support wizard/infantry buffer Skink starseer- no current role Skinks- skirmishes/chaff/objective grabbers Saurus warriors-frontline main melee combat unit Temple guard- elite anvil unit Kroxigor- elite hammer unit Saurus knights- fast hammer unit Teradons- flyer/bomber Ripperdactyls- flyer/hammer/alpha strike Chameleons-character assassins Salamanders- anti-armor artillery Razordons- anti-infantry artillery Bastilidon- tank/anvil/anti-everything artillery Stegadon- anti-monster/anti-horde utility Engine of the gods- magic support monster Carnosaur- melee hammer monster unit Troglodon- jack of all trades monster unit My main gripe: -Warriors need more staying power. Warriors need more damage output. Warriors need to be cheaper. Warriors need re-work. -kroxigor and temple guard need re-work to emphasize their roles more. Temple guard need a modern update with a new rule to make them the Tanky infantry choice. Kroxigor need to be doing at least as much damage as my kurnoth hunters because they are amazing and everything I hope kroxigor will be. -chameleons are too expensive to pay points for. -trog needs rework in order to become a unique interesting choice worth taking. Making it cheaper over and over until eventually you are dumb for not taking it is not the way to balance him. -Teradons need a little buff to their bomber role. Better bombs/more types of bombs maybe -salamanders too redundant with bastilidon and not accurate enough to risk. Need buff to see more play. -We are daemons. We should have a 6+ save after save. -Even if we don’t get the 6+ save after save, our non-bastilidon monsters need staying power. Old lizardmen fluff from long ago mentioned the gold plates melted to their scales were protective talismans. Give them all native 5+ ignore mortal wound saves. Or re-roll failed saves. Or something. -our spell lore is aweful and our mechanics punish us for casting spells. A rework of how summoning works would be nice.
wow this is a great assessment i would argue that out side half our heroes only three of the above mentiond units performe there job well. that being razors rippers and skinks. warriors and guard have the above mentioned problems kroxs are to fragile, the death role is almost useless, and they only hit hard against hordes knights are slower then kroxs so they need a speed boost if they are ment to be a fast hammer i would make them into heavy Calvary better saves and health then rippers but worse damage and speed also make there MW proc on to hit instead of to wound. terradons need more consistent damage output there rocks need to be more then just one and done i agree with the assessment of camelions salamanders could be good at there job they just need better range there reel problem is if they don't kill what they are shooting at they get counter charged and die there low acriacy and attacks could work if they could lob attacks 16+ inches. or if you droped them to 1+d3 damage and dobled there attacks. Bastiladons make poor tanks when they don't have re-rolls at least at there current cost. they also do fairly low damage for artilery for 280 points you could have two of most artillery and smash most things. it suffers for trying to do to much at once. stegadons are great anti horde and the poor mans bastiladon for killing monsters Engine of the gods has overall poor buffs with the exception of summoning saprise that's all we use it for and it makes us play dangerously with our slann to make it work. if it had several descent buffs it would make us chose how to manipulate the roll and would end up a lot stronger for it. i am tired of having to spend an artifact to make carnasaurse usable these are our main monster unit and we have to struggle to make him worth taking they ether have to make his profile less punishing or make it harder to hurt him in the first place. trogladon should be combined with the starmaster make it a durable high mobility caster unit it would cost more than our skink wizards but could stand with the front line and keep the buffes going. i love the 6+ shrug idea yes summoning needs to change i don't wan't my slann napping i want him throwing around majic death.
INC: MASSIVE WALL OF TEXT, be warned EDIT: made it a bit more readable by adding bullet points.. What they should be: Skinks: light skirmishers. Currently lacks meaningfull damage (seriously 1 hit per round of shooting in a group of 10 is pathetic...). Beyond that they're actually more or less fine. Chameleons: light ranged troops, ambushers/semi-assasins. Currently too squishy, too expensive and doesn't take either of the assasin or the ranged theme far enough making it excell at nothing. Right now it's just a weird unit you use to teleport onto an objective at the last moment. Skink handlers: light support troops. Currently fine given what we use them for. Combining them with salamanders/razordons into 1 "unit" like how a dwarven cannon + cannoneers is 1 "unit" would be absolutly brilliant though. Preferably also in such a way that you can't easily kill the handlers to massivly weaken the razordons/salamanders. Also should probably have more uses. Also, kudo's for the genius who gave them their eyestabbing rule. Excellent way of ensuring that a small supporting unit with terrible stats is still capable of attempting to defend itself in a halfway meaningfull way. Terradons: light skirmish cavalry. Currently mostly fine, the bombs are a tad awkward though and needs some love to make up for powercreep Rippers: light to medium shock cavalry. Currently mostly fine Knights: medium to heavy line cavalry. Currently almost fine, lances need a rework though and needs some love to make up for the general powercreep. Warriors: medium to heavy line infantry. Currently does not fullfill it's role in the slightest. For some reason made into a cannonfodder horde unit Guard: super heavy elite infantry. Currently far too squishy. Offensivly mostly fine though, even weirdly powerfull with the batallions D3 damage. Kroxigor: heavy monstrous shock infantry. Currently massivly undertuned, the death bite thing can be outright detrimental in certain situations & the moon hammer is too dependent on a horde to function (give it a minimum amount of hits at least..) Bastiladon: super heavy behemoth. Currently not as sturdy as it should be. Lacking offensivly as well especially in melee. Powercreep is very noticeable for him. Stegadon: medium to heavy behemoth. Surprisingly squishy, bow lacks in volume of attacks, melee is mostly threathening on the charge. Blowpipes have the same issue as the moonhammer. Overal weirdly tuned. EoTG: medium to heavy support melee behemoth, buffshrine. I'd like to see it do more with the buffs/debuffs instead of the several random damage effects it has. Other than that very much the same issues a stegadon has. Carnosaur: medium to heavy shock behemoth. Needs mount traits. Undertuned. Again, noticeable powercreep issues. Troglodon: light to medium support shock behemoth. Undertuned & the supportive power is underwhelming. Why isn't this a hero? What is it trying to be? Razordon: medium to heavy monstrous artillery, anti-infantry focused. Currently mostly fine, needs some love to make up for powercreep. Also I feel the handler bonus should just be baseline. Salamander: light to medium monstrous artillery, more anti-armour focused. Needs better range, needs multiple attacks for a smoother curve. Handler bonus is an even bigger issue here as they already lack range. Skink priest: light-medium support ranged hero, buffer/debuffer. Priest. Currently lacks prayers, ranged attack is underwhelming, utterly incapable of defending itself against even the most minor of threats also falls over to a stiff breeze. Make it a vaguely capable combatant, improve it's ranged attack & give us some prayers already. And have him help with summoning Skink starpriest: light-medium support ranged hero, buffer/debuffer. supportive wizard. Priest Currently somehow worse of a combatant than the regular priest as it doesn't even have it's ranged attack... Also give some alternatives for the venom in case there are no applicable targets. otherwise the exact same complaints as the priest. At least we have a spell-lore now. Skink starseer: medium support ranged hero, buffer/debuffer. Main battle wizard. Priest. Leader. Currently just all sorts of terrible. Slann: medium support ranged hero, buffer/debuffer. Main battle wizard. Leader. Currently too focused on our summoning. Give it some reason to actually cast spells. Also, give him some ranged attacks so he gets to do something outside of the hero phase (or make it worthwhile to send him into melee) Summoning should be divided up amongst the slann and various skinks instead of all be loaded into the slann. I don't think "summoner" should be a seperate role in the current state of the game. Eternity warden: super-heavy support melee hero, bodyguard. Untertuned, powercreep issues. Also, maybe allow it to guard things other than a slann. Oldblood: super-heavy support melee hero, leader. Currently far too weak offensivly on foot (and on carno the mount does most of the work..). Supportive ability is underwhelming as well in all its forms. Sunblood: super-heavy melee hero, champion. Currently mostly fine, needs some love cuz powercreep but at least it's actually capable of punching something unlike our other heroes... Especially lacks reliability compared to similar heroes from other factions Scar vet: super-heavy support melee hero, leader, champion. Currently mostly fine, needs some love cuz powercreep. Especially the one on cold one is in a suprisingly good place. Astrolith bearer: heavy support melee hero, buffer. Another hero that's a weirdly bad combatant... Could use some more focus as well. Right now it supports hit-roles, wizards & summoning, pick one to be really good at instead of being mediocre at all. Possible solution allow us to pick a specialised icon or something. As a general remark: most of our stuff is undertuned. Many of them try to fullfill too many roles at once, or have too many disconnected effects. Only a handfull actually do what they should, and even then they're often undertuned. We don't have assasins.And we don't have any proper horde unit (or at least, shouldn't... we don't have anything like skavenslaves or grots where the main tactic, in fluff, is to have your opponent run out of ammo...) Other than that I don't think we really miss any role. As for the classifications: light/medium/heavy/super heavy indicates how heavily armoured a unit is Shock troops are your classic hammer, usually a bit more squishy than their counterparts but with greater damage. Anvil isn't really a seperate role as you can use anything that holds the line as an anvil. Hell you can use a literal anvil as one. Line troops are your general purpose troops that are supposed to switch between tasks depending on what's needed. They form the core of your army. Monstrous classification indicates the unit in question is particularly big and savage making them generally stronger than their non monstrous counterparts. This usually gives them some freedom as they can just as easily break an enemy line as they can hold their own (after all, can't really trample them with a cavalry charge..) Skirmishers have decent ranged harrasement but won't outgun proper ranged troops. In exchange they have more mobility. Support ranged X means they have supportive effects (e.g. a buff) and are capable ranged combatants Support melee X means they have supportive effects (e.g. a buff) and are capable melee combatants. Leader heroes focus on leading your troops using buffs or re-positioning tools forming the lynchpin of your formation Bodyguards focus on protecting your troops (and other heroes) Champions go around murdering stuff in glorious combat Wizards throw around spells, generally more damage focussed than priests Priests throw around prayers, generally more utility focussed than wizards The rest I assume is selfexplanatory This enough of a giant wall of text?
thank you i love it! this will help a lot and it's good to see that i have a lot of the same problems as you it means i'm learning something from our back and forths. fun fact did you know that skinks have the weakest combat stat line in the entire game?. is there a current discussion page for balance and future changes i feel bad about having our debates in unrelated subject pages
And so we return to the topic at hand, analyzing the ancient plaques for information on our future as planned by the Old Ones
Somewhat offtopic, first previews for the new Lizardmen DLC for TW2 are live. Man, the Dread Saurian and especially the Kroxigors look awesome. Nice vid by Turin showing off the new stuff:
Total War once again making me embarrassed to look at our model line. If the FW Dread Saurian looked like that on tabletop then even the ridiculous price tag couldn't hold me back.
Yeah it looks considerably less rat-like than the Forgeworld model. However... I am not sure whether I like the Skink Howdah. I always imagined the Dread Saurian more feral, only controlled by magic and as a pure melee monster. The way it is played in the game looks like it is great fun though.
I'd assume the howdah is purely there to be able to get two tiers of saurian in instead of it being stuck being a super late-game unit (or quite underwhelming if you acces it earlier)