Star Trek vs. Star Wars (and a collection of memes)

Shit!

I made the same mistake! I need the BLUE pill as that's the one with Return of the Jedi.

 

Yeah I'll give you the R2 one, that was a bit too much artistic licence. I genuinely forgot about that one.

To be honest Anakin and Padme's love dialogue improved in Episode III. Can't see anything cringeworthy in that particular scene.

Because the Sith were reduced to two members by the time of the Prequels and because the Jedi believed them to be extinct for a millennium, the Jedi curriculum placed more of a focus on using Lightsabers to defend against blasters. It's certainly plausible for the three Jedi accompanying Windu to have underestimated Palpatine's Lightsaber combat skills and use of the Dark Side. Qui-Gon was killed by Darth Maul, Obi-Wan was almost defeated by him, both he and Anakin were wounded badly by Dooku and Yoda failed to kill Palpatine, making it clear the Jedi have had a history of underestimating the Sith to their cost. Those three Jedi accompanying Windu experienced it at the ultimate cost.

It's also plausible for people to lose the will to live, especially if they have been betrayed as Padme had by Anakin. Damaged people often do mad things.

And with all due respect, you criticise me about being biased, when I have admitted there are flaws in my preferred trilogy, while you consistently avoid acknowledging blatant flaws I point out in the OT regularly. I don't want to turn this into another shitstorm, but it'd be great if you practiced a bit of what you preached.

Nah, V isn't dark, all the heroes survive more-or-less intact, the Rebellion escapes with light casualties and the Empire remains as incompetent as ever. Compare that with the utter whitewash the villains win in Episode III and the pyrrhic victory the Rebels achieve in Rogue One, and you'll find V is definitely not dark.

I agree Episode I has a lot of lighter moments, mainly thanks to our Gungan friend, but Qui-Gon's death does have some poignancy to it, and dispels the myths that 'no-one can kill a Jedi' that we see up until then. Especially when you consider Qui-Gon is essentially the protagonist of the film.

No, Return of the Jedi is in the Red Pill category because it has a red title . As I have said before it's the meme that has ordered them around incorrectly.

 

@Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl, I get some of your opinions, despite not totally agreeing. Sure, there are cheesy, or more swashbuckling, moments in most of Lucas's adventure movies; OT, PT, Indy. The young Anakin stumbling into a starfighter and conveniently blowing up the Trade Federation ship doesn't strike you as "tacky/cheesy"? It does to me. I personally don't remember as much about the PTs other than them being generally dull or just awkward. So I haven't seen them as much as the OT. The fight with Darth Maul is probably the standout part of the whole PT for me. The rest just feels kind of like a "downhill slide". But I think both of us kind of have on rose colored glasses when it comes to the trilogy we prefer.

To be fair, bad guy minions rarely, if ever, threaten the main good guys in any movie, but especially not in action/adventure movies. None of the droid army was a threat to the heroes in the PT. To be hyperbolic for effect, you almost make it sound like you won't be happy unless stormtrooper scenes are written by George R. R. Martin.

EDIT: I do want to add something, though. I used to REALLY not like the prequels. But, I've softened a bit over the years. I don't hate them. They aren't the instant enjoyment I felt/feel with the original movies, but I can watch most of the PT these days. I've realized that I'm an "old geezer" when it comes to Star Wars, and I'm more of an OT (and some EU) fan than an "anything Star Wars" fan.

 

I've actually seen an interesting theory as to why Padme died. When Anakin was burning up, he drew energy from Padme to save himself through their strong emotional bond. Anakin is pretty deep into the Dark Side at that point, and it seems plausible. It certainly makes Padme's death much more interesting and dramatic than the simple, 'she died of a broken heart' which always seemed like a poor sendoff to Padme to me.

 

Based on the fact that Leia described their mother to Luke, I always imagined that she had survived. At least for a time. I thought she likely did live a brief life of a brokenhearted person, agonizing over who and what Anakin had become.

 

It is terrible. An improvement over Episode II perhaps... in the same way as being shot in the chest is usually better than taking a bullet in the head. Still a pretty shitty situation, even if the chest wound is better.

Let me guess... you're single! That scene is absolute nails on a chalkboard level cringe. Point of advice, don't use any of it as inspiration in your life.

It's not that they lost. It's not that they underestimated him. It's simply that it looks like they have never handled a lightsaber... ever. He holds his saber to the side and allows himself to be stabbed. He doesn't move. He doesn't protect his centerline. He doesn't even react in any meaningful way. Even an absolute novice would at least hold the saber in some sort of rudimentary guard position. The stab itself is equally awkward, as Sidious seems to freeze and hold the saber in place for a second or two before striking. The choreography of the OT was poor in comparison to the PT, 20 years of cinema evolution and budget will do that, but there is no excuse for that bit of the fight in Episode III. It was a huge step back from what we had already seen in Episode I and also in the rest of the fights in episode III. You don't make Sidious appear skilled and imposing by making his opponents incompetent.

Qui-Gon versus Maul is a completely different scenario. That was a hard fought battle. He didn't just fall over and die right from the onset.

Really? You think it is realistic for her to just die of sadness? To leave her newly born twins behind. There is a reason why that scene is near universally made fun of.

I think your memory is failing you or you are deliberately trying to mislead. I have been very vocal on what I feel are the limitations of the OT (there are numerous posts on this forum that you are more than welcome to review). That doesn't mean that I will necessarily agree with your perceived flaws with the OT because I don't believe they are substantiated.

Just a couple of quick reminders:

• I've always hated the Ewoks, I have never liked their inclusion and how they were used in the film
• I've always maintained that the Lightsaber choreography was easily the best in the PT, for instance
• I've never been a fan of Boba Fett, and felt that his "death scene" was ridiculous

I have discussed all of these points numerous times over the years. I can't see how you can honestly, in good faith, deny that.

I wouldn't recommend it. The numbers are not on your side. We've played this little game many times over the years and it always ends in the same way.

"The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result."

 

Ahh, I've heard about this thread, where you argue over star trek and star wars... or wait, I mean OT and PT

There is no discussion, nightbringer said it all, also, are we even gonna mention jar jar binks? Complete joke.

 

Agreed. Jar Jar as a central character automatically disqualifies a movie from being described as having a "dark" tone.

I'd say the Star Wars movies with a darker tone (keeping in mind that SW for the most part is aimed at a younger audience) are:

• Revenge of the Sith
• Rogue One
• The Empire Strikes Back
• Solo (terrible movie though)

That' my ace in the hole, for when the debate eventually escalates!

An absolute dumpster fire of a character. He literally ruins every scene he is in and greatly tarnishes Episode I.

 

All trilogies are equally inferior to the Kung Fu Panda trilogy.

 

Alack, I thought you already knew that I was, but I have not given up looking for someone suitable.

I certainly intend to take your advice to heart, mainly because the 'awkward teenage Jedi Padawan from Tatooine' look isn't my style

Well, there are a fair few women across the world, and have been for millennia, who have been terrible mothers to their offspring for one reason or another - laziness, addiction to substances/alcohol (Gin was nicknamed "Mother's Ruin" in the Victorian era because so many women wasted their money on drinking copious amounts of it at the expense of their family), disinterest, selfishness, delusions that they can 'change' a bad-boy-beta partner who abuses the children, or any other attitude that smothers any form of maternal instinct they could have developed. When there are women like this in the real world, a broken-hearted woman dying as a result of such a betrayal even with offspring in tow doesn't sound particularly far-fetched to me.

I like this point a lot, it emphasises Anakin's heightened selfishness that, when he is near-death after being maimed by Obi-Wan, he would instinctively steal power from Padme to save himself, something that cannot be healed by even Polis Massan medical technology and gives the impression on the surface that she is simply 'losing the will to live' when it's actually something deeper and stronger. It epitomises the very nature of the Sith.

"They think inwardly, only about themselves."

Please tell me more, I'd like to hear why you think my other perceived flaws of the OT are not substantiated.

Funnily enough I remembered this not long after I made my previous post and started ruminating over what I had said in my head to assess whether that was the best shot I could give. I was going to include this as an exception to my accusation but ran out of time.

And I do recall both of these now as well, but at the time I did not (I would say in this case it was because I was caught up in the fervour of debating ).

I accordingly withdraw that accusation and apologise.

To be honest, I despair of this majority sometimes, particularly the minority of the majority that are particularly aggressive and hateful in their criticism of Episodes I-III (fortunately pretty much nobody on this forum goes to this level of extremity, but people like that are out there), but I have done as much as I can to enlighten you all, and if I cannot persuade you to change your views then so be it. I would never force you to accept my views, because that would be weak and cruel, and I respect your rights to your opinions as much as my own.

Particularly @Just A Skink, I must say your magnanimity in these matters is impressive. I could never get overly-competitive in a debate with you pal.

Haha, I wouldn't want to see the amount of gory detail he likes to include in his works introduced into Star Wars, but Episode III and Rogue One in particular add a real dose of hero mortality and properly bring the 'War' to Star Wars. More Star Wars works with the level of darkness these two achieve is what we really need to help douse the memories of the piss-poor Sequel Trilogy.

 

Ah, the mysterious @Ianavor, I've been meaning to have a word with you for some time.

Do you even play Warhammer, or get involved in our hallowed hobby of wargaming in any way? Because a couple of days ago your 'friend' who took on the username 'WARHAMMERSUCKURDUMBNERDS', or something along those lines, started trolling the anti-woke politics thread with genuine insults like "racist misogynists" and "you warhammer fans are dumb nerds who live in their mom's basement", and then when I put a stop to it, claimed it was a joke you'd invited him onto the forum to play, a joke that isn't funny at all. I invited @Scalenex to remove the posts and banish your accomplice, @Erta Wanderer also saw the offending posts because he approved my anti-trolling stance, and @orzhovboss noticed the odd username of your associate and attempted to contact them about it, in the impression it was a joke in itself, so I have witnesses.

I'd be most interested to hear why you are here and what you intend to do in your stay here, because while discussions like this Star Wars one are a part of the forum, they are just things we do for added fun in our spare time. The main reason we are members of this forum is to discuss our hobby with like-minded people, and if you did not join for the latter purpose then I would say you are not welcome here. This forum should not tolerate pranksters or trolls, and does not purely exist for bandying random gossip or debate.

 

I do play war games, just not this one, and I am curious about warhammer... I do not know that guy, and I'm not sure why he randomly chose me as like a scapegoat. I should probably do an introduction post shouldn't I?

 

Board games... Mostly risk(but online) on a website called dominating12...

I also play some irl war games every once in a while, "Land of the Rising Sun" being most notable.

 

Nothing new here. We've discussed this (repeatedly) at length over the past few years. Probably no point in trudging up old arguments [translation: NIGHTBRINGER does not wish to eat into time that could be spent playing PS5 Elden Ring ]