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AoS NEW *rumor*

On the subject of Lizardmen/Seraphon novels and the lack thereof, the biggest hurdle really is how to characterize them as relatable and still keep them faithful to their relatively alien nature.

It's arguably easiest to do with the likes of skinks due to their more articulate grasp of linguistics, though their challenge is working around body language for expressions.

Sauri, having been engineered specifically for combat, have all the literary problems of a war bot with an extensive knowledge of strategy and tactics and little else unless they're feral. Their linguistics and body language rarely stray beyond what they need to communicate with in battle, making them a difficult prospect to anthropomorphize as is.

Kroxigors are almost entirely dependent on body language despite having a firm grasp of basic orders. At best, they're either the silent protagonist, the big dumb best friend, or the reason you don't go into the swamp alone at night.

Slann... writing a character who is supposed to be near God-like in intellect, wisdom, and magical prowess is extremely difficult to pull off effectively without coming off as a deus ex machina, and it's far more likely that such a character is instead going to be a central plot device for a Lizardmen/Seraphon story.
 
Agreed. If a story were to be written about a small warband of Seraphon that have become real, it could be interesting however. But in order to pull it off there would have to be few of the Seraphon characters imo.
 
Looking to GWs own published stories on Seraphon.... Meaning the single story we got in Malign Portents...

Skinks would be extremely easy to make protagonist. They have all the necessary relation points for readers. Give their motivation and you have a good start to characterizing the Lizardmen/Seraphon as a whole.

I'm hoping the AoS RPG that is coming gives us a bit more too, as a Starpriest is supposedly a playable character there.
 
ChapterAquila92 said:
On the subject of Lizardmen/Seraphon novels and the lack thereof, the biggest hurdle really is how to characterize them as relatable and still keep them faithful to their relatively alien nature.

It's arguably easiest to do with the likes of skinks due to their more articulate grasp of linguistics, though their challenge is working around body language for expressions.

Sauri, having been engineered specifically for combat, have all the literary problems of a war bot with an extensive knowledge of strategy and tactics and little else unless they're feral. Their linguistics and body language rarely stray beyond what they need to communicate with in battle, making them a difficult prospect to anthropomorphize as is.

Kroxigors are almost entirely dependent on body language despite having a firm grasp of basic orders. At best, they're either the silent protagonist, the big dumb best friend, or the reason you don't go into the swamp alone at night.

Slann... writing a character who is supposed to be near God-like in intellect, wisdom, and magical prowess is extremely difficult to pull off effectively without coming off as a deus ex machina, and it's far more likely that such a character is instead going to be a central plot device for a Lizardmen/Seraphon story.
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Even skinks would be a pain to write while being true to their alien nature.

The simple issue is that they simply won't react to events in a manner that's even vaguely logical to a human. Their reaction to any and everything should simply be "and then I carried on with my next task in the great plan" regardless of what the next task is and what just happend. Of course that reaction can be mistaken for some human emotion, e.g. violently disemboweling a skaven that just desecrated a relic might be interpertred as "anger". However, that would simply be a human interpretation of this action. While truthfully all that reaction is is the fullfilment of the great plan, and it's almost as likely that they'l let that skaven desecrate the relic because somewhere down the line this is somehow usefull to the great plan.

Seraphon simply only care about 2 things, the great plan and things that help progress the great plan. Human emotions and think-patterns simply have no place in there.

Admittadly, things could change. Especially now that seraphon are actually sending ambasadors to the cities of sigmar. If nothing else it can be claimed that in order to fullfill their tasks properly they need to understand human (and dwarven, and aelvish etc.) emotions and thought patterns better. And to understand them better they are made more similar, slightly less obsessed with the great plan.

But for now, stories about them as protagonists are very difficult to get right.
 
@Canas i think your interpretation of Seraphon and Lizardmen mindset is very narrow.

True, the Great Plan is all that really matters in the long run. But the only ones who know it are the Slann. Every other body and mind is acting on orders and on their own will. A skink skirmisher is going to probably be comparable to a human in their emotional range, despite the "alien" motivations of their people. They're still a single mind that is going to have emotions of a kind.

Compare it to religious fanatics in the real world, or even in other fictional world's. They only care for their "Great Plan", and a lot of their motivations and actions can seem alien when viewed through the lense of 'the other'.

We could even extend the thought to biological reasons for emotions. Those things could be present to a different degree in Lizardmen, as they're a bioengineered race. Fear could be more easily suppressed, or other emotions blunted, but I don't think you can remove base emotions entirely via manipulation. Even magic, composed of a force assumed to be part emotion, part mathematics and part willpower, probably couldn't remove them entirely.

Unless Lizardmen are literally biological robots, meaning their brains are hardwired to adhere to only certain tasks and functions, with very little ability to deviate, I would guess they do still feel something. Even if it isn't as deep as Love or as paralyzing as Terror.
 
Canas said:
Even skinks would be a pain to write while being true to their alien nature.

The simple issue is that they simply won't react to events in a manner that's even vaguely logical to a human. Their reaction to any and everything should simply be "and then I carried on with my next task in the great plan" regardless of what the next task is and what just happend. Of course that reaction can be mistaken for some human emotion, e.g. violently disemboweling a skaven that just desecrated a relic might be interpertred as "anger". However, that would simply be a human interpretation of this action. While truthfully all that reaction is is the fullfilment of the great plan, and it's almost as likely that they'l let that skaven desecrate the relic because somewhere down the line this is somehow usefull to the great plan.

Seraphon simply only care about 2 things, the great plan and things that help progress the great plan. Human emotions and think-patterns simply have no place in there.

Admittadly, things could change. Especially now that seraphon are actually sending ambasadors to the cities of sigmar. If nothing else it can be claimed that in order to fullfill their tasks properly they need to understand human (and dwarven, and aelvish etc.) emotions and thought patterns better. And to understand them better they are made more similar, slightly less obsessed with the great plan.

But for now, stories about them as protagonists are very difficult to get right.
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Skinks rely on the Slann and prophecy to guide them in the great plan, so simply leaving them on their own without access to consult either will open up room for indecision and doubt, and from there it can open up for learning and character growth.

This is basically what they did in Dying Star.

If a Skink has been left to fend for itself without guidance for a while, it could easily start to second guess interpretations of prophecies based on what it learned while out on it's own. It would only be able to challenge prophecies though. A Slann's word will be both law and truth to the Skink no matter how much experience it gains. There's still stories to be told down that path as well, but they'll all end with the Skink either killed or exiled, and then it turned out to all be a part of the Slann's plan all along...
 
I believe our current appearances in AOS stories are "Legends of the Age of Sigmar Skaven Pestilens", and the second Gotrek Audio Drama "Realmslayer: Blood of the Old World". Other than the previously mentioned Malign Portents online short story Dying Star. I am really hoping for more of us, especially any more concrete fluff (heh) that talks about our lives outside of combat.

For Warhammer Fantasy we have the books "The Burning Shore" first of the Florin and Lorenzo trilogy, and "Temple of the Serpent" book two of Thanquol and Boneripper. Burning Shore has sections from skink and slann point of view, and I can't remember about temple of the serpent.
 
VVolfsong said:
Skinks rely on the Slann and prophecy to guide them in the great plan, so simply leaving them on their own without access to consult either will open up room for indecision and doubt, and from there it can open up for learning and character growth.

This is basically what they did in Dying Star.

If a Skink has been left to fend for itself without guidance for a while, it could easily start to second guess interpretations of prophecies based on what it learned while out on it's own. It would only be able to challenge prophecies though. A Slann's word will be both law and truth to the Skink no matter how much experience it gains. There's still stories to be told down that path as well, but they'll all end with the Skink either killed or exiled, and then it turned out to all be a part of the Slann's plan all along...
Click to expand...

Correct me if i'm wrong, but as of AoS there is no more Great Plan, right? The Seraphon are still acting under the great machinations of the Slann, but they're now just bringing a furious, destructive war to chaos itself under their own ideas, rather than following some unknowable greater plan set out by the old ones or something.

I think that slaps the door wide open to more interesting and involved seraphon stories, as they're now governed by some more understandable ideals and desires, rather than the whims of prophecy and a nebulously functional how-to-build-a-planet instruction guide by long gone gods.
 
Togetic said:
Correct me if i'm wrong, but as of AoS there is no more Great Plan, right? The Seraphon are still acting under the great machinations of the Slann, but they're now just bringing a furious, destructive war to chaos itself under their own ideas, rather than following some unknowable greater plan set out by the old ones or something.

I think that slaps the door wide open to more interesting and involved seraphon stories, as they're now governed by some more understandable ideals and desires, rather than the whims of prophecy and a nebulously functional how-to-build-a-planet instruction guide by long gone gods.
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Well, there's some light supporting lore for the Great Plan still being intact. Something something about the Ultimate destruction of Chaos being a part of it, rather than keeping the planet of Malice alive.

We won't really know until the book is out and we can say for sure what the motivations of the Slann truly are.
 
Guys, the Games Workshop site is down, at least here (US.). They must be busy injection molding new Saurus, and had no time for IT. New sculpts confirmed! /S

But seriously with yesterday's preorder preview, are we thinking that they're having to sidestep all China produced products like books and terrain, given the work shutdowns in China due to the pandemic?
 
Its always a possibility, but everything they would release for us would already have been produced months ago and stored.

See the Battletome for SoB that we found the Shipping manifests for. They're either already in a warehouse by now, or waiting for landfall. Haven't checked. A book for a Battletome Army months out supposedly
 
VVolfsong said:
Skinks rely on the Slann and prophecy to guide them in the great plan, so simply leaving them on their own without access to consult either will open up room for indecision and doubt, and from there it can open up for learning and character growth.

This is basically what they did in Dying Star.

If a Skink has been left to fend for itself without guidance for a while, it could easily start to second guess interpretations of prophecies based on what it learned while out on it's own. It would only be able to challenge prophecies though. A Slann's word will be both law and truth to the Skink no matter how much experience it gains. There's still stories to be told down that path as well, but they'll all end with the Skink either killed or exiled, and then it turned out to all be a part of the Slann's plan all along...
Click to expand...
It might attempt to figure out the prophecies on it's own, and in doing so learn to function more independently to some extend. But for the most part they'd just follow their last standing order, or just go and look for a new slann to follow. And do that to the best of its abilities. None of that requires the development of emotions. It just means they learn to work towards the great plan without constant guidance, in so far that actually needs "learning". Given that a significant chunk of the instructions they get are quite vague in how they should execute it (e.g. go get artifact X, go stand guard here till I wake up, wipe out the threat of Y) they already should be fairly independent to begin with.

Carnikang said:
@Canas i think your interpretation of Seraphon and Lizardmen mindset is very narrow.

True, the Great Plan is all that really matters in the long run. But the only ones who know it are the Slann. Every other body and mind is acting on orders and on their own will. A skink skirmisher is going to probably be comparable to a human in their emotional range, despite the "alien" motivations of their people. They're still a single mind that is going to have emotions of a kind.

Compare it to religious fanatics in the real world, or even in other fictional world's. They only care for their "Great Plan", and a lot of their motivations and actions can seem alien when viewed through the lense of 'the other'.

We could even extend the thought to biological reasons for emotions. Those things could be present to a different degree in Lizardmen, as they're a bioengineered race. Fear could be more easily suppressed, or other emotions blunted, but I don't think you can remove base emotions entirely via manipulation. Even magic, composed of a force assumed to be part emotion, part mathematics and part willpower, probably couldn't remove them entirely.

Unless Lizardmen are literally biological robots, meaning their brains are hardwired to adhere to only certain tasks and functions, with very little ability to deviate, I would guess they do still feel something. Even if it isn't as deep as Love or as paralyzing as Terror.
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Two things:

1) they're not like zealots of other races. Zealots are convinced that their belief is right by indoctrination, possibly aided by magical, mechanical, psychological or bio-chemical means to make the whole process easier. But the underlying mind is still human (or dwarvish aelvish etc, but those are humanoid enough). A mind that had to be taught to belief in their "great plan" (possibly by force..). And this indoctrination can (in principle) be broken, although it's possible the zealot will break in the process as well.
On the other hand seraphon aren't indoctrinated, their very mind is already based around the notion of the great plan. They don't need to be taught to belief in it. They just do. Similarly, it's also impossible to convince the seraphon to not belief in the great plan.

2) Every living thing is arguable a biological robot. But what's most important here is that the rules that are "programmed" into a lizardman are so different that they're incomparable to other biological robots. Whereas say a dwarf is supposed to be fairly similar to a human. Seraphon's "emotions", motivations & way of thinking is just completly alien, and that simply doesn't really make for compelling protagonists as their behaviour simply wouldn't make any sense to the reader without anthromorphying them and sticking a human twist on everything they do. Which would be doing a disservice to the concept of a such an alien race. So you're better off using them as a secondary race/character instead of as the main protagonist.


Carnikang said:
Well, there's some light supporting lore for the Great Plan still being intact. Something something about the Ultimate destruction of Chaos being a part of it, rather than keeping the planet of Malice alive.

We won't really know until the book is out and we can say for sure what the motivations of the Slann truly are.
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Even if there were no current support in fluff they can always just pull a new prophecy out of somewhere that yes this is all totally according to plan, including blowing up the old planet whenever they want to. The benefit of vague prophecies, they always work :p
 
I honestly do hope that “aha, the end times was all according to plan” implication gets retconned or ignored, it’s very dumb and does nothing but make seraphon a more alien force with more inaccessible motives and ideals.
 
Togetic said:
I honestly do hope that “aha, the end times was all according to plan” implication gets retconned or ignored, it’s very dumb and does nothing but make seraphon a more alien force with more inaccessible motives and ideals.
Click to expand...

There's a short story in our current story contest, that deals with such issue.
 
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