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8th Ed. Kroxigar in Skinks

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Slaantastic

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Can the kroxigar go in the third row when in horde formation so that the second row of skinks can attack? Seems pointless to even run a horde otherwise cuz you don't benefit from 3 ranks of attacks?
 
You count ranks by the skink base size,
so theoreticaly if you could put another rank of kroxigors, which you can't,
they would be in the 4th rank and still wouldn't be able to hit.
 
Yes, but my question was can you do 2 ranks of skinks and then make the third rank the kroxigars so that everybody can attack... Or do Kroxigars always HAVE to go in the second rank.
 
"Kroxigars always HAVE to go in the second rank"
Yep
 
n810 said:
You count ranks by the skink base size,
so theoreticaly if you could put another rank of kroxigors, which you can't,
they would be in the 4th rank and still wouldn't be able to hit.
Click to expand...

No you don't, you calculate rank bonus and number of ranks by the skinks ranks.

Whether you can support attack is based on number of actual models between any model and the opponents front rank.

If you have a skrox unit then the skinks behind the kroxigors get a supporting attack because although they count as 4th rank for rank bonus and steadfast they only have two fighting models between them and the enemy so count as a third rank for extra fighting ranks getting support attacks.
 
So if I'm understanding this right, what you're saying is...

1) 12 wide skinks, the front 12 get to attack; followed by the kroxigors; BUT then the 12 skinks behind the kroxigors get to attack (10) also, even though they are in the 4th row for cc res and steadfast?

But that means that two skinks in the 4th can't attack even though their buddy next to them can, the red circles? (o = skink; 4ks = 1 krox)

oooooooooooo
okkkkkkkkkko
okkkkkkkkkko
oooooooooooo

So, 26 skink attacks and 15 krox attacks?

2) what if I go 40 skinks 10 wide with 5 krox? Does the 2nd krox all alone in the start of the 4th rank get his 3 supporting attacks as well? Even though he is extending into the 5th rank?

oooooooooo
okkkkkkkko
okkkkkkkko
oookkooooo
oookkooooo
oooooooooo

So, 22 skink attacks and 15 krox attacks?
 
I disagree with that assumption. I see the arguement, but I think that due to the statement in our rule book about the Kroxigor's placement in the 2nd rank(and that each kroxigor counts as 4 skinks) means that you are not allowed to get the supporting attack for those skinks or any Kroxigors in the second rank. As much as I would love to be able to take a horde fromation 10 wide with two ranks of kroxigors, until it is cleared up by a faq stating that I can do that, I am not going to.

I have actually played a game with a unit of 100 skinks with 4 kroxigors placed 2x2. It was a very nasty unit. A friend of mine mentioned that it would be legal. It was an awesome build for the unit. I thought it made that unit much too overpowered.

As stated above, I would love it if this were legal, but I just do not think it is.
 
Do keep in mind that the rules only state that a kroxigores counts as 4 skinks for the purposes of rank bonus, not actual ranks.

Thus if you have a unit 12 wide of skinks, with 6 kroxigores behind them, and say another 6 kroxigores behind them, all kroxigores and the front rank of skinks would get to attack, due to supporting attacks, and hordes.
If instead you placed 12 more skinks in the 3rd rank(4th for combat rez) behind the 2nd rank(2nd and 3rd for rez) then you would get 24 skinks, and 6 krox attacking.

While GW could coma along and FAQ this, it seems like its pretty cut and dried, as ranks for combat rez, and ranks themselves have different rules and applications.
 
Arli said:
I disagree with that assumption. I see the arguement, but I think that due to the statement in our rule book about the Kroxigor's placement in the 2nd rank(and that each kroxigor counts as 4 skinks) means that you are not allowed to get the supporting attack for those skinks or any Kroxigors in the second rank. As much as I would love to be able to take a horde fromation 10 wide with two ranks of kroxigors, until it is cleared up by a faq stating that I can do that, I am not going to.

I have actually played a game with a unit of 100 skinks with 4 kroxigors placed 2x2. It was a very nasty unit. A friend of mine mentioned that it would be legal. It was an awesome build for the unit. I thought it made that unit much too overpowered.

As stated above, I would love it if this were legal, but I just do not think it is.
Click to expand...

Calculations for steadfast and rank bonus are clearly stated to be based on equivalent base sizes so big models count as multiple small ones; calculations for supporting attacks are clearly stated (in most places!) to be based on actual models so big models count as one model.

Also, strict interpretation of the skrox rules prevents krox being placed 2x2 as the strict interpretation of RAW only allows krox in the 2nd rank of skrox units (except where enough skinks have died so there are no longer enough skinks for a full front rank).
 
BEEGfrog said:
Calculations for steadfast and rank bonus are clearly stated to be based on equivalent base sizes so big models count as multiple small ones; calculations for supporting attacks are clearly stated (in most places!) to be based on actual models so big models count as one model.

Also, strict interpretation of the skrox rules prevents krox being placed 2x2 as the strict interpretation of RAW only allows krox in the 2nd rank of skrox units (except where enough skinks have died so there are no longer enough skinks for a full front rank).
Click to expand...

You might want to re-read the entire section on supporting attacks. It is by rank in the unit. The skinks that are behind the krox are in the 4th rank, and would never gain supporting attacks, even if in a horde. Supporting attacks are in fact based on ranks.

To show an argument to the extreme of this, would you allow skaven models who are behind a screaming bell to gain supporting attack? After all its one model. The answer is No, they cannot.
 
That is my thought on it as well. If you have two ranks of Kroxigors. Would they get supporting attacks? For example if you had say 100 skinks and 6 Kroxigors, with the Kroxigors in two ranks of 3. Does our rule book preclude us from takin more than one rank of Kroxigors.

I would say that you could do this, but it is up for debate.
 
unfortunately, the way the army book reads is pretty clear. "Kroxigors must be placed in the 2nd rank unless enough skinks die in the front rank to force them to move up." (perhaps not a direct quote but its close :)) key word here is must and it gives the exception to the kroxigors being placed in the 2nd rank.
 
The exact wording is: "Kroxigors are always placed within the second rank, unless too few skinks remain in the fron rank (see page 41 for details).

To me, that does not specify either way. The diagram does not help as it only shows a unit with 2 kroxigor. Sure, reading it as a rule lawyer, it says 'must'. But, if you follow that logic, you can say that only 2 kroxigor can go in any unit of skinks because that is what is shown in the book. The book also states that for every 8 skinks, you can add 1 kroxigor. There is no limit. Does that mean that if I take a unit of 100 skinks with 12 Kroxigors, would I have to make a rank of 26 skinks to put all 12 Kroxigor in the second rank?

I just do not see it that way. It makes more sense that you would double the rank of kroxigor (after 3, anyway.....12 is a bit of an exaggeration). The question that I have is would those Kroxigor get supporting attacks. Previous arguements support that they would.


I sent an email to GW customer support asking about this. If I get a response, I will post it.
 
im not a big supporter of RAW, but you'll have trouble convincing a knowledgable opponent when it comes to the "always placed" part of the rule. common sense to me says that if the unit is 6 wide and youve got 6 kroxigors, they should adjust their position in the unit (i.e. be placed in the 3rd rank) instead of the unit adjusting its frontage to allow all the kroxigors to be placed in the 2nd rank. if only it said "when possible" in there, like all of the mandatory placement rules for command and character models within a unit.

as for the supporting attacks and rank situation, this is the way i would work it:

Scenario 1:
s s s s s s s s s s
kk kk kk kk kk
kk kk kk kk kk
kk kk kk kk kk
kk kk kk kk kk
s s s s s s s s s s s

in this example the 2x2 k's represent 1 kroxigor, for a total of 10 kroxigors in this unit. the unit is a horde (10 wide). for the purposes of ranks, there is currently 1st rank skinks, 2nd rank kroxigor, 3rd rank kroxigor, 4th rank skink. to me, that means you will have the first rank of skinks attacking plus the 2 ranks of kroxigors (front rank, supporting rank, horde supporting rank). for rank bonuses, according to our rulebook each kroxigor should be represented as 4 skinks for the purposes of rank bonus calculations. so currently that formation has 6 ranks, so would get the full +3

Scenario 2:
s s s s s s s s s s
s s kk kk kk s s
s s kk kk kk s s
s s kk kk kk s s
s s kk kk kk s s
s s s s s s s s s s s

in this example, your rank bonus would still be +3 because you have 6 ranks. what is attacking would change however. you now have 1st rank skinks, 2nd rank skinks/krox, 3rd rank skinks/krox. so you would have a total of 16 skinks and 3 kroxigors attacking since the other 3 kroxigors are in the 4th/5th ranks.

Scenario 3:
config 1
s s s s s s s s s s
s s kk kk kk s s
kk kk kk kk kk
kk kk kk
kk

or

config 2
s s s s s s s s s s
s s kk kk kk s s
kk kk kk
kk kk kk
kk kk kk

in this example, youve lost a bunch of skinks (typical). here in lies the problem with multiple ranks of kroxigors. i believe the correct way to do it would be config 1, though it doesn't LOOK right. (i.e. 3 different rank sizes). config 2 doesn't LOOK right either but my assumption is you always fill in ranks as they are depleted. this is all based on the fact you think the unit config should dictate where the models go instead of the models altering the unit config because of how many there are. truely a unique issue to lizardmen (i think :)). i could go either way really, both sides have some solid arguments.
 
Sory dude ranks ar measured by skinks, so your "3rd rank" or Kroxigors is actualy in the 4th rank and waont be able to attack even with a horde. Also Kroxigors"Allways go in the second rank".


Ranks

1 ssssssss
2 ssKKKKss
3 ssKKKKss
4 ssssssss
5 ssssssss

KK
KK = 1 Kroxigor

s= 1 Skink
 
I'm with you on seeing both sides. We will see what (if anything) GW has to say about it. Although, I am hoping that they support (lol) the supporting attacks by the Kroxigor in the 'third' rank. That would be awesome. I alway limit my skrox units to 3 Kroxigors because it is unclear.
 
If you realy want 3rd rank kroxigors attacking in a hord, you would have to field them in their own,
in a unit if 3x6 (18)kroxigors. That is if you are even allowed that many in a unit. :bored:
 
It was a question that came up against a skaven friend a while back. With a mixed unit that is in Horde fromation, the rule seems a little unclear. It could be argued either way.
 
Wow. So much diversity on this. For me, it seems really hard to see it any other way than what's stated in the book.

The reason that there is no limit on how many krox's you can have with it's 8 skinks is for width.. not depth. And when reading rules, it should be taken at face value. The word "MUST" is there to indicate that is the only position the Krox's can be in unless there is room in the front rank from death of unit skinks. There is no "unless" for when you don't have a wide unit and it doesn't say you can then place krox's in the 3rd row. So.. with the wording (and from my point of view, there really isn't any other possible interpretation as stated above) the Krox's can only be in the 2nd row. If a person wanted to reform the group, they can do so as long as the krox's are only in the second row.

Now, some people are going to say "rules or word lawyer" on this.. but think about it. You've got to understand that the meaning of one word CAN change the meaning or definition. The word "must" is used so you can't place them anywhere else other than where intended and the front when room is available. A player should not bend a definition of a word to fit their tactics (not a personal attack on anyone, just how I see it). :smug:

I've showed this to my entire gaming club.. both warhammer and non.. and they all read it as the same as myself. Actually, there wasn't even a hint of speculation on how else to use them. (Now I know my group isn't GW reps etc.. but I wanted to get a 3rd person view on the matter).

So.. as I can only speak for myself and my group, this is how we play a skrox group and our way of seeing the rules. One other thing we decided to do as well.... if there was ever a disrepency with the rules or a really "odd" circumstance comes up without clarity on course of action, we simply do a roll-off and soldier on. :D
 
Very diplomatic repsonse! :D

This may fall into an 'I wish' category. I do not play it the way that I 'wish' that I could. This was a strategy suggested to me. It would be nice to have supporting attacks from the kroxigor in a horde unit. I do not think it will turn out that way.

I am playing devil's advocate, here.

I think the word 'must' just applies to the inital Kroxigor and not to additional ranks (of Kroxigor).

Hopefully, I will get a response from GW on this.
 
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