8th Ed. Kroxigar in Skinks

[TheRolfgar]

You seem to have a problem understanding the fact that ranks aren't ALWAYS straight lines. In almost all cases they are, but as soon as you throw some randoms sized figure in like a krox or the bell you stop.

That is because they are straight lines. Go look at the page 98. While it is not strictly stated, it is clear from looking at what is pictured and then reading what they represent that you use the core parts of the unit to calculate base size. The Krox are not the core part of the unit, they are upgrades so they must follow the skinks to determine ranks.


Ranks are always straight lines. The BRB on page 98 shows that with models and different base sizes, and you have not given any proof to the contrary.

Also, your comparison of up and direction doesn't work the same way as ranks and bonus's because you have it backwards. A direction is up, thus all ups are directions. See how putting them in the correct order works? The Rank is Direction, while the Bonus is Up. Direction is the base value while Up is the subset of it. My comparison worked just fine because ranks are also the base value, while the bonus is a subset of it. Without ranks you would never have bonus, without knowing direction, you would never know up (perspectively).

 

[BEEGfrog]

Calculations for steadfast and rank bonus are clearly stated to be based on equivalent base sizes so big models count as multiple small ones; calculations for supporting attacks are clearly stated (in most places!) to be based on actual models so big models count as one model.

Also, strict interpretation of the skrox rules prevents krox being placed 2x2 as the strict interpretation of RAW only allows krox in the 2nd rank of skrox units (except where enough skinks have died so there are no longer enough skinks for a full front rank).

You might want to re-read the entire section on supporting attacks. It is by rank in the unit. The skinks that are behind the krox are in the 4th rank, and would never gain supporting attacks, even if in a horde. Supporting attacks are in fact based on ranks.

To show an argument to the extreme of this, would you allow skaven models who are behind a screaming bell to gain supporting attack? After all its one model. The answer is No, they cannot.

The wording on supporting attacks says that the supporting model has to be behind an eligible model in the front rank and says nothing about rank equivalents due to models with different base sizes. The wording on spears is ambiguous but the generic extra attacks rule is also clear.

Unless there is a special rule re Plague furnaces then yes the skaven models behind the furnace get their supporting attack (and if the unit is a horde due to the equvalent amount of bases rule the the rank behind them get a supporting attack too)

 

[Arli]

The wording on supporting attacks says that the supporting model has to be behind an eligible model in the front rank and says nothing about rank equivalents due to models with different base sizes.

When the guy at customer service mentioned that, he quoted that rule specifically.

 

[Cravenus]

The wording on supporting attacks says that the supporting model has to be behind an eligible model in the front rank and says nothing about rank equivalents due to models with different base sizes. The wording on spears is ambiguous but the generic extra attacks rule is also clear.

Unless there is a special rule re Plague furnaces then yes the skaven models behind the furnace get their supporting attack (and if the unit is a horde due to the equvalent amount of bases rule the the rank behind them get a supporting attack too)

Leave it to BEEF to find that. and here I was all about to say that after rethinking the bell, that u couldn't SA thru it.

You guys can skip this part its just with Rolf.

Also, your comparison of up and direction doesn't work the same way as ranks and bonus's because you have it backwards. A direction is up, thus all ups are directions. See how putting them in the correct order works? The Rank is Direction, while the Bonus is Up. Direction is the base value while Up is the subset of it. My comparison worked just fine because ranks are also the base value, while the bonus is a subset of it. Without ranks you would never have bonus, without knowing direction, you would never know up (perspectively).

exactly, your saying that a model HAS to both in the same rank for BONUS and RANK, whle the rules differ obviously, while I'm saying that a model can be in a different rank for both rank, and rank bonus, example A: Skrox, where the krox are both RANK 2, but RANK BONUS 2 and 3. My statement was to compare your assumption that rank and bonus are the same, o the faulty assumption that both UP and direction are the same. All in all pretty meaningless(this whole argument, and not your assumption/opinion).

 

[TheRolfgar]

You still haven't looked at the diagram on page 98 have you? It clearly shows how to calculate ranks with different based sized models. Show me anywhere in the BRB that says to calculate them otherwise.


On the note of supporting attacks not mentioning ranks, you might want to read the bold text at the start of the section: (pg 48 )

Warriors in the second rank do not sit idly by whilst their comrades battle away, but muster forward to strike blows of their own. We refer to the attacks made by these models as supporting attacks.

And before anyone says that its in bold and kinda written as fluff, it is not fluff. Its in the rules section. On top of that there are plenty of rules, such as max number of power dice, that we would have no rules for at all if we were to ignore the bold "fluffy" parts that are in the rules section.


Once again, go look at page 98 where it is clearly shown how to calculate ranks with different base sized models. I'd like to know why no one has tried to point to something in the rules that contradicts what is shown there, or even tried to argue against it.

 

[Cravenus]

You still haven't looked at the diagram on page 98 have you? It clearly shows how to calculate ranks with different based sized models. Show me anywhere in the BRB that says to calculate them otherwise.

Pg 98 only deals with characters, not ALL large sized models, just FYI Mr. "it's written in the rules"

Also note, the bold parts are just quick rules, for fast skimming. the regular text proceeding the bold is a more in depth explanation. While neither is necessarily fluff, or ignored, to say that the bold text takes precedence over the regular(or vise versa) is incorrect.


Besides this, I'm out of this discussion, as we're essentially arguing over a decision that's already been made.

When making supporting attacks through larger models(it can be argued they also have to be non character) you essentially just check that your the X model back, as opposed to the X rank back.

 

[BEEGfrog]

You still haven't looked at the diagram on page 98 have you? It clearly shows how to calculate ranks with different based sized models. Show me anywhere in the BRB that says to calculate them otherwise.


On the note of supporting attacks not mentioning ranks, you might want to read the bold text at the start of the section: (pg 48 )

Warriors in the second rank do not sit idly by whilst their comrades battle away, but muster forward to strike blows of their own. We refer to the attacks made by these models as supporting attacks.

And before anyone says that its in bold and kinda written as fluff, it is not fluff. Its in the rules section. On top of that there are plenty of rules, such as max number of power dice, that we would have no rules for at all if we were to ignore the bold "fluffy" parts that are in the rules section.


Once again, go look at page 98 where it is clearly shown how to calculate ranks with different base sized models. I'd like to know why no one has tried to point to something in the rules that contradicts what is shown there, or even tried to argue against it.

We have looked at both pages.

On page 48 look at the next paragraph where it defines exactly what you need to make a supporting attack: to be behind a model in the front rank eligible to fight.

Page 98 is utterly irrelevant to supporting attacks and what individual models can do, it is all about units and calculating how many ranks they have for rank bonusses/steadfast and whether character models sit in or to the side of units.

These rules are both about ranks but they are separate sets of rules and they don't mix, they are as different as the rules to hit from combat and shooting, you can't use a shooting rule in combat and you can't use a rank bonus rule to calculate supporting attack ranks.

 

[TheRolfgar]

On page 48 look at the next paragraph where it defines exactly what you need to make a supporting attack: to be behind a model in the front rank eligible to fight.

Page 98 is utterly irrelevant to supporting attacks and what individual models can do, it is all about units and calculating how many ranks they have for rank bonusses/steadfast and whether character models sit in or to the side of units.

These rules are both about ranks but they are separate sets of rules and they don't mix, they are as different as the rules to hit from combat and shooting, you can't use a shooting rule in combat and you can't use a rank bonus rule to calculate supporting attack ranks.

First, you cannot ignore the bolded text like that. To make a supporting attack you must be behind a model in the front rank who is eligible to fight, and you must be in the 2nd rank. You have to meet both requirements, and at the end of the day we are not even arguing about that. The Horde rules lets you fight in an additional rank after that. That is the important part.

You say page 98 only affect rank bonus yet mine clearly reads:

If your character(s) fit into the unit in this manner, work out the units ranks (and therefore its rank bonus) as if the space was filled with rank and file troops.

And:

For example, all units shown have three complete ranks, and therefore a rank bonus of +2.

If ranks were allowed to be staggered as others have suggested this would not be true for most of the examples shown where one model was larger than the others. (I'm referring to the image in the bottom left corner) These rules matter because they tell you what models occupy what rank, and in this case the larger model takes up 2 ranks, as well as counting as 2 ranks when looking at rank bonus.

I have been unable to find anywhere else in the book that defines how to calculate ranks or bonus when there are models with different sized foot prints in a unit. It is shown in the character section because it is the most common scenario where it would happen. Again, you are free to argue that it only affects characters in this way, but without any other section telling us how to calculate ranks it makes sense (to me at least) to use what we have instead of just assuming.

At the end of the day I don't see the point in referencing the same listing of rules over and over. If you don't want to play it the way I interpret the BRB, and your opponent agrees to it, go for it. I simply disagree.

 

[Cravenus]

If your character(s) fit into the unit in this manner, work out the units ranks (and therefore its rank bonus) as if the space was filled with rank and file troops.

note: CHARACTER, not model, thus only applies to characters. You can't just ignore the rules like that.........


I want to try explaining something here.
Rank as a rule only pertains to a models vertical positioning within a squad. NOWHERE does it state specifically nor really implicitly that a rank is ALWAYS a straight line of models on the same plane. And nowhere do the rules mention this interpretation either. In fact rank and file location within a squad are only used on a model by model bases for positioning for example, this model is in rank X. Never do the rules make the supposition that a model and all models next to him(horizontally) are in the same rank with the exception of the front rank. Keep in mind that the core rules ASSUME a squad of models the same size not differing, thus WHEN USING A MIXED UNIT ONLY do your ranks stop being the assumed(by the player not the rules) straight line. Does this break the game? no. Is it hard to understand? no one I've talked to has an issue with it, and in fact no one I've talked to has had a differing position.

So for example, if you have 10 skinks, and 3 kroxigores behind them and the reso of the squad filled with skinks, your 10 skinks in the front, are in rank 1, the 3 krox, and 2 skinks behind the 1st rank, are rank 2, the skinks behind the kroxigore and the 4 behind the 2nd rank of skinks up front, are rank 3. For rank bonus though, you define the kroxigores and all 8 skinks beside them as rank 3 and 4, FOR RANK BONUS ONLY not ranks, and NOT supporting attack. This position is only held in no character units, if the kroxigore were all characters, then yes, they would be both rank 2/3 and RB 2/3 as peer the character rules on pg 98.

I'll point out again Rolfgar that GW works it out this way, although it would've been nice if whoever had called them(or even if GW did this as par for the course) had asked them WHY the skinks can attack and gotten a better answer than GW's customary "because they can".


note: I did some heavy back and forthing in this post deleting and fixing stuff so if something seems really out of place and stupid sounding, I probably missed taking it out.

 

[TheRolfgar]

I'd like to point out that you have no proof that CS even said that, for all we know he could be making it up. I'm not calling him a lair, but again, we have no real proof for this is the internet. I could say I called CS and they told me I was right, would that change the argument? It shouldn't because its not in a FAQ, its just something written on an internet forum.

I already said that pg 98 mentioned specifically characters, however with an absence of rules for a unit upgrade (the kroxigors are an upgrade) you should not be assuming rules.

You say it doesn't mention straight ranks, but I quoted a section of the rules (oh no its in the character section) that does just that, it states they are a straight line (because as I pointed out, if they didn't their own examples wouldn't work).

I would like to point out to you, that no where in the rules does it mention specifically nor really implicitly that a rank is allowed to be an uneven line. In fact, your entire paragraph speaking about it completely contradicts what is shown on PG 98. There are rules on it, you just don't want to use them when referring to a unit upgrade and only feel they pertain to characters.

You keep saying that a mixed unit somehow gains its own unwritten special rule allowing it to have uneven ranks when there is no evidence to back your claim up. Ranks are even until you show me a page number specifically stating that they are not. With an absence of rules for unit upgrades it is not unreasonable to use what we do have have in the character section as it sets a precedence.

As a last note, I understand your argument, I simply disagree with your interpretation.

 

[BeardedDragon]

You keep saying that a mixed unit somehow gains its own unwritten special rule allowing it to have uneven ranks when there is no evidence to back your claim up. Ranks are even until you show me a page number specifically stating that they are not. With an absence of rules for unit upgrades it is not unreasonable to use what we do have have in the character section as it sets a precedence.

I'm new here, and not the expert by any means, but doesn't the diagrams on page 41 of the Lizardmen book show that the skinks can wrap around whatever Krox are in the unit? It actually shows all three possible rank combos of that specific mixed unit. They wouldn't show the formation if it wasn't legal... especially since the Army books trump the rule book.

Regarding the CHARACTERS thing, it seems pretty evident that characters are allowed to do a great many actions standard Rank & File units can't. Krox can't charge out of a unit of "SKrox" as it's called here.

Just my humble opinion though as I've read through so many well developed ideas...

 

[Cravenus]

The rules assume that each R&F unit is formed of models the same size: TRUE
The only time these inherent rules come into conflict, special rules working out that conflict are written: TRUE
Pg 98 specifically work out the ONLY time where a larger model can be put into a group of smaller models using just the BRB(characters can enter units, normal models cant): TRUE
Thus anytime a R&F unit has larger models in it(Skrox Tguard) you fall back on the armybook: TRUE
Rank bonus is worked out based on rank: TRUE
Rank is not worked out on rank bonus: TRUE
Rank is never worked out based on rank bonus: TRUE
A rule that modifies a models inherent "Rank bonusieness" does not necessarily affect RANK, unless it ALSO affects said RANK: TRUE
Kroxigores in Skinks are counted as 2 ranks for the purposes of RANK BONUS ONLY: TRUE
Kroxigores are wholly counted as 1 rank for the purpose of RANK: TRUE
Rank is only used in the context of this discussion for 2 purposes: To determin supporting attacks(where the kroxigore is 1 rank) and to determine rank bonus(where it is counted as 2): TRUE
why is this?

Rank is only worked out on a model by model basis. You can read the relevant paragraph on page 5 of your BRB. This only really affects squads containing models the same size, but notice it doesn't say that any model that's larger takes up 2 ranks, or 2 files. so you default to the armybook, which does say that for the purposes of RB they do. not rank, just rank bonus. the change is not backwards compatible, thus it is forwards, if it said they counted for the purposes of ranks we wouldn't be having this discussion.

I'll take this opportunity to point out that it specifically ALSO says that a rank of models must contain the same number of models as the rank in front of it, thus in a 10 man wide squad of SKROX you're actually not allowed to have any kroxigores in the squad, but I digress.

Trying to explain to someone who wont accept another view of the rules is fruitless when they just parrot the same line over and over, so I'm out, unless something new comes up I suggest the rest of you do the same.

 

[TheRolfgar]

I'll take this opportunity to point out that it specifically ALSO says that a rank of models must contain the same number of models as the rank in front of it, thus in a 10 man wide squad of SKROX you're actually not allowed to have any kroxigores in the squad, but I digress.

Trying to explain to someone who wont accept another view of the rules is fruitless when they just parrot the same line over and over, so I'm out, unless something new comes up I suggest the rest of you do the same.

If you count the skrox as I have suggested there is no conflict. Thank you for further proving my point. In fact if you look at page 5 on "forming units" you could never field a unit of skrox with any skinks behind the krox as there would be more models in the rear rank than there are in the 2nd rank.

As far as possible there must be the same number of models in each RANK. Where this is not possible it must be the rear rank that has fewer models.

6 skinks in front, 3 krox in 2nd, and then 6 skinks in rear ranks means the skrok rank breaks the rules of page 5 unless you count the krox as a 2X2 skinks for Rank purposes, not just for rank bonuses as you have suggested.

Lastly, if you are going to try to insult somebody I would suggest you not do it in a way that they could not simply say the same thing to you. You have been repeating yourself this entire time and you clearly will not see another persons point of view.

Bearded: You should probably read the entire argument (or not as its mostly pointless). I'm not saying the formations in the army book are wrong, I'm saying the krox count as 4 skink (2X2) models when determining ranks. This really only matters when using a horde formation and determining if the skinks behind the skrox could gain supporting attacks (I'm saying they can't). I suppose it would also matter for determining who is steadfast as well.

 

[Cravenus]

first off, i wasn't trying to insult you, otherwise it would sound more like "you're obviously an idiot" or "you're a moron" not pointing out the fact that you cant seem to accept(or possibly understand) another point of view.
I however understand yours, that rank and rank bonus are always the same, that the same configuration MUST be used to form both ranks, and rank bonuses, and any rule and effect changing one, changes both which is simply not true.
And as far as insulting goes, you beat me to the punch with "I'm not saying hes a liar, but I will now base my entire flawed defense on my assumption that he is, in fact, lying"

Second: my pointing out the BRB stance that an Skrox unit violates the rules helps neither of us in our argument. Well thats a lie, it helps my side, you see because nowhere in the LMAB does it rescind this model restriction, neither does it EVER state that krox count as 2 models for FILE purpose which is what it would need to do to overcome the ruling, we just, as players, assume that they do because to not do so would be stuid and harder than it needs to be.

Thirdly, As to the point of my "repeatedly stating the same thing" I suggest you go back and reread my posts, while i have been stating the same POSITION, my arguments have become more and more refined, in an attempt to get you to understand that your wrong, and not in the smartest way.

Lets reverse this and well find out.

Lets assume that the unit was built from kroxigore not skinks. That it was in fack 8 skinks allowed per 1 kroxigore, That the unit had to be built the same way(with krox in rank 2) and that for the purposes of rank bonus each skink counted as 1/2 a rank. How many skinks could attack?

 

[n810]

and that percicely why GW didn't make it a Kroxigor upgrade.

 

[TheRolfgar]

Lets assume that the unit was built from kroxigore not skinks. That it was in fack 8 skinks allowed per 1 kroxigore, That the unit had to be built the same way(with krox in rank 2) and that for the purposes of rank bonus each skink counted as 1/2 a rank. How many skinks could attack?

If the skinks were forced to be counted as monstrous infantry (like the krox) then you would need 6 wide to make a rank, however there are no rules for half ranks so I don't really care. It doesn't matter at all to this argument as the skinks are the base model and the kroxigors are the upgrade. Making up pretend scenarios doesn't help your argument, nor does making up rules.

Second: nowhere in the LMAB does it rescind this model restriction

we just, as players, assume that they do

Your own words.

See the point you haven't gotten yet is that this is a game, and a game has rules. Unless there is something telling you that you can do something you can't do it. The LM rule book no where states it overwrites page 5 in the brb. I'll wait here while you go quote me a rule that says it does, oh wait, you can't cause its not there. This means you have to still obey page 5. The entire unit only functions properly if you count the krox as 2x2 models like it is shown (and only shown) on page 98, which I know is the scary characters section, however I still stand by it giving precedence to another unit upgrade whose base size behaves in the same manner. Its not simpler to overrule page 5 "because you think you should" its simpler to follow page 98 that actually has words and diagrams showing models with different footprints.

I've gone and quoted you rules and given you page numbers to back up my argument, the only thing you have given is your opinion and your assumptions. There is nothing that says the skrox unit has an exception when following page 5 for building units. You can only form it using those rules if you count them as 4 skinks for rank purposes.

 

[Cravenus]

I'm saying the krox count as 4 skink (2X2) models when determining ranks.

Rank bonus, not ranks.

The section on characters strengthens my argument more than yours due to one thing, one little word, the word 'bonus'
on pg 98 it says that the larger models count as a 2x2(or larger if need be)for BOTH rank and rank bonus. why they said both of them when just saying "when determining ranks" would be fine, is beyond me.

while it clearly states in the LMAB that "The best way to handle this is to count the model on the larger base as the same number of models that would normally occupy the space. So, a Slann in a Temple Guard unit would count as four models - two in each rank - when determining rank bonus (see example diagram below)"
notice that even in the CORE book they separate the two rules as RANK and RANK BONUS. I'll give you about 5 seconds for you to turn that over in your mind as we now ask 2 questions: Are they the same? no they aren't, clearly they are different the rules say so, rules that interact with them say so, and they are also named differently. And secondly Why should a rule affecting rank bonus(which is derived from ranks) be backwards compatible and affect its parent rule? It's like saying because this 1 flyer has a special rule, ALL flyer should have it.

It appalls me that you cannot overcome the fact that ranks are different from rank bonus, , nor can you handle(arguably by choice) a simple logic problem. So ill ask you this. IF you get caught on the flank with any formation, according to you, no one gets supporting attacks, because you get no rank bonus, and ths have no ranks. herpa derp.

 

[TheRolfgar]

You do realize I'm not arguing that ranks are the same thing as rank bonus right? I didn't think I would have to outright say it since I have already stated what I'm arguing about.

In order to meet the requirements on page 5 you need to count the krox as a 2x2 formation of skinks for rank purposes. It honestly doesn't matter that the LM book mentions rank bonus as the BRB already covers units with larger base sizes.

You have once again failed to cite any actual rules to defend your position. Cite me something that allows a unit of skrox to function at all regarding page 5 without counting each krox model as skinks for rank purposes(not rank bonus, as that does not apply here, see how I know they are different?). You can choose to ignore p5 if you want, but doing so is not RAW and it doesn't even make sense.

Your last question made me laugh btw, your examples are really just getting silly.

Edit: In regards to this statement :

The section on characters strengthens my argument more than yours due to one thing, one little word, the word 'bonus' on pg 98 it says that the larger models count as a 2x2(or larger if need be)for BOTH rank and rank bonus.

Perhaps you have a non-english version of the book and yours says somthing else, but I was unable to find the exact words you used there (and since the page is 75% diagrams it seems like a difficult section to miss). Mine instead reads:

If your Character(s) fit into the unit in this manner, work out the unit's rank (and therefore its rank bonus) as if the space was filled with rank and file troups.

That is a direct quote from the writing between the two left hand diagrams (I have the large hardcover BRB, English edition). The addition of the reference to rank bonus in parenthesis is clearly written as a clarifying statement, its not contradicting anything I have said and I don't understand how you feel that invalidates it. It defines how you deal with rank, and then goes on to add how that would affect bonus's if you weren't able to figure it out on your own. It doesn't change the fact that they count as the base model for ranks.

 

[T`hinker`er]

While there may be an argument that you can get those extra 6+ skink attacks, I think it's twisting the rules a bit and you have to weigh the pros of those measly WS2 attacks against the animus your opponent is going to feel about you as you make your case for why you should have them. Not worth it IMO.

 

[Coatl]

In order to meet the requirements on page 5 you need to count the krox as a 2x2 formation of skinks for rank purposes. It honestly doesn't matter that the LM book mentions rank bonus as the BRB already covers units with larger base sizes.

You have once again failed to cite any actual rules to defend your position. Cite me something that allows a unit of skrox to function at all regarding page 5 without counting each krox model as skinks for rank purposes(not rank bonus, as that does not apply here, see how I know they are different?). You can choose to ignore p5 if you want, but doing so is not RAW and it doesn't even make sense.

Just to put my 2 cents in, your first paragraph would be RAI. the only thing I've seen so far in this discussion from your side is how a character interacts with a unit in regards to its footprint and how ranks are counted. maybe i missed more details? however, kroxigor aren't characters. thats pretty obvious. to imply that the same rules for how characters work in a unit should be used for skrox units is erroneous. its an extrapolation at best. im not seeing anywhere that says those character rules should be applied to similar issues with other models with conflicting base sizes.

for the second paragraph, the lizardmen book shows how kroxigors are placed in a unit. it even gives limits as to where they can go in the unit. the brb states that unique units (which is what a skrox unit is) have their own special rules and their rulebook will explain them. our book says skrox units are comprised of 8 skinks for every 1 kroxigor and the kroxigor must go in the second rank unless enough skinks die in the front rank, then they have to move up. it also says that for the purposes of rank bonuses, you should count the krox as 4 skinks. it doesn't say rank though. my guess is they don't want you getting a "gimmie" rank by simply having a kroxigor rank in your unit that spans from side to side. thats all the book says, if i recall correctly. if thats the way the army book says they rank up, thats the way it is regardless of the rules in the brb.

so what have we learned?
1) must be 8 skinks for every 1 kroxigor taken
2) kroxigors must be in the 2nd rank, unless enough skinks die in the front. then they move up
3) kroxigor count as 4 skinks when you calculate rank bonus.

so where in the brb does it say you count the base size of monstrous infantry or for that matter ALL models as the same as the smallest base size in the unit? if it doesn't say THAT (rememeber, not just characters) then your interpreting my friend . id rather give my opponent the extra 6 skink attacks then give him an extra rank for steadfast. just me though. army book always trumps the brb. hence why kroxigor can only be in the 2nd rank. its the only case i can think of where the units formation is dictated by what models are in the unit (10 kroxigor unit must be 20 skinks wide? rediculous! )