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AoS NEW *rumor*

Discussion in 'Seraphon Discussion' started by Logan8054, Jan 28, 2019.

  1. Canas
    Slann

    Canas Ninth Spawning

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    At least that'd give the GHB some worth beyond just the list of updated points. I was wondering what they were going to put in the next one now that everyone has a relativly up to date tome and you could see how empty that left GHB 20
     
  2. 4idvet
    Skink

    4idvet Member

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    I kinda felt the writing was on the wall for legions of Nagash when he and Arkhan got rolled into the bonereapers book, so I didn’t expect a book for them to be forthcoming. Stormcast will be getting one with the launch when it comes. While everyone else army wise currently I agree the books feel to be in a pretty good spot. Reading that made me realize how empty the handbook actually felt in a way.

    Im ok with a new edition as long as it gets rid of the double turn and gives a better look out sir rule.
     
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  3. Canas
    Slann

    Canas Ninth Spawning

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    Short story about orruks to start off the broken realms. I guess this is going to be very similar to the soul wars.

    Somewhat surprised the ork had a bad knee/suffered from old age though, somehow that doesn't seem very ork-y. Thought that wasn't much of a factor for them.
     
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  4. Erta Wanderer
    Skink Priest

    Erta Wanderer Well-Known Member

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    it's not orks are physically immortal
     
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  5. Plushosaurus
    Skink

    Plushosaurus Member

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    I think that random activation ala Bolt Action would be cool, but I'd rather have the double turn shenanigans than the dreary determinism of 40K (which thematically probably should be dreary I guess).

    For my preferences: gonzo > highly random > somewhat random > deterministic. This game has flying sharks and dinosaurs riding dinosaurs and stardragons... the 'movie' of the game should make "Transformers" look like "Remains of the Day". Legions of dino-men and golden warriors clashing and getting flattened by the epic daikaiju battle of the megasaurus and the stardragon during a hailstorm of actual comets while the floating frog sorcerer has a wizard's duel with Lightning Girl... it's not Chess!
     
  6. Dread Saurian
    Kroxigor

    Dread Saurian Well-Known Member

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    images (4).jpeg
     
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  7. Canas
    Slann

    Canas Ninth Spawning

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    More rules

    Morathi now appears in both forms at once, which seems like it'd be a pain. On the bright side, you can now nuke them both into the ground with AoE damage at the same time. And presumably she loses the limited wounds per turn rule this way.

    Also some rules for the lumineth. I don't like the bloodthirsty predators rule for the Akhelian Allopexes. The way it currently works its effectivly going to be a near permanent buff if the lumineth player pays attention to it. It should really have been limited to "units that have suffered a wound/lost a model THIS TURN".
     
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  8. Killer Angel
    Slann

    Killer Angel Prophet of the Stars Staff Member

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    I was going to post it, but you already did.

    Yeah, i really hope that silly 3-wounds limit will be gone, but somehow i doubt it.
     
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  9. Canas
    Slann

    Canas Ninth Spawning

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    First :p

    If they keep the 3-wound limit with these new rules this it'd be hilariously overpowered. It already is a problematic rule, but at least right now you only have to deal with 1 of her two forms at any given time. If she gets both the near immortality provided by that rule and both her forms at the same time she'd basicly be an army on her own the only thing she would be lacking is model-count.
     
  10. Killer Angel
    Slann

    Killer Angel Prophet of the Stars Staff Member

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    the fact that i totally agree with you, doesn't mean that GW will follow the most logical and balanced route. :p
     
  11. Canas
    Slann

    Canas Ninth Spawning

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    When has GW ever not done the logical and balanced thing? ;)

    So obviously she gets to keep her 3-wound max rule & they balance it out when malekith gets his faction and he gets to be 50 models at once on top of having a better version of her 3-wound rule :p
     
  12. Erta Wanderer
    Skink Priest

    Erta Wanderer Well-Known Member

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    the article says that most of her rules are unchanged and i think that is a good thing. Morathy is one of the few good monsters in the game and it's entirely due to her durability. in fact it's one of the ways people have been going over to try and fix the rest of the monsters in the game and has even made the jump to 40K. i don't think it's going any where and i don't think it should, morathy isn't breaking the game or even why DoK is good.
     
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  13. Canas
    Slann

    Canas Ninth Spawning

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    It might not be super duper overpowered, especially in her current state as right now she at least doesn't have acces to both forms at once, but even now it's already annoying that she can become defacto immortal if she can avoid (some) damage for a turn or two.

    However if she's allowed to bring both her forms at once that'l create 3 major problems which are quickly going to be frustrating

    1) You can end up with 2 defacto immortal units. Which means that the DoK player can go and do some absolutly ridiculous plays if they manage to avoid enough damage to become unkillable. Who needs screens when you've got 2 units that are unkillable?

    2) You don't just get a sturdy behemoth, you also get a immortal wizard. If she can avoid damage for 1-2 turns then her caster form has free reign to do whatever the hell she wants. Making her the only support unit who doesn't need to care about positioning in the open in the slightest. Also, her normal form is a powerfull enough combatant that she can easily go contest objectives on her own, a MSU used to grab objectives isn't going to stand up to her if she doesn't have to worry about any damage.

    3) Even before she has reached the point where she becomes unkillable the DoK player would be able to do some absolutly ridiculous stuff thanks to the fact that they share a health pool. If one form has already suffered 3 wounds this turn then the other form can play as aggressivly as it wants, even if under normal circumstances this would not be a risk worth taking as she'd be annihilated. E.g. If her behemoth form is already fighting a horde of plaguemonks her caster form might as well attack another horde and kill some of the rats without having to care in the slightest about their retaliation as she is going to suffer 3 wounds anyway.

    And yeah, in competitive play this probably won't be too problematic. It's only 2 models, she'l still lose on objectives. It just seems like a rather frustrating opponent to deal with if you are forced to consistently deal 3 wounds per turn or you end up facing 2 immortal units. Any more is worthless overkill, any less and she becomes unkillable, either way unless you do exactly 3 wounds per turn your efforts are essentially wasted. Which just isn't fun.


    As for her durability being a fix towards some of the issues monsters face. Meh, it solves some issues, especially when faced with a horde that can do 50+ attacks in a single turn and just blow up the monster in 1 turn. But imho simply limiting the max damage per turn like this is not a good solution to give monsters durability. The downsides outweigh the positives.
     
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  14. Erta Wanderer
    Skink Priest

    Erta Wanderer Well-Known Member

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    ok then
    point 1.) so what? we can also bring immoral units bastiladons. doesn't mean they are any good and morathy costs more then 2 of them let alone how much both of her will cost.
    point 2.) yes and we can bring cognado kroak who is just as hard to kill for the same points 2+ save rerolling and a 4+ after save makes him eat similar amounts of wounds. he also does much more damage then morathy does. as for her contesting Objective points. no, no one does that she is a single model that has a average damage out put of 1-6 average 3. if she tries to engage in melee she is dead on round 2 you still very much have to protect her. beyond that she has a good CA that doesn't stack with the other CA that let you attack again and a bad spell don't know why her being unkillable is a problem honestly i would just ignore her.
    point 3.) this doesn't make her better in fact it makes her worse as you need to screen 2 units instead of one. as is her monster form gets 4 rounds of combat or 2 if the opponent is good at shooting. so 4-13 damage average 9 3-10 avrage 6 after she takes 3 wounds(so turn 1 for us or any one who has shooting). 4 or 2 times not ground breaking heck the same cost of carnasours does that in 1-2 combat phases.

    morathy is good at pinning stuff and thats about it having 2 of her isn't going to be game breaking or even all that hard to deal with. even if you don't want to deal with her just throw a solid anvil or even a standard 10 man to distract her and you waist a turn. as far as 480 points goes she is rather underwhelming but does her job well she is a distraction carnafex who waists your time while the witch elves actually do the work.
     
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  15. Putzfrau
    Skink Chief

    Putzfrau Well-Known Member

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    i'd rather fight morathi than almost anything else in the DoK book haha
     
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  16. Canas
    Slann

    Canas Ninth Spawning

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    No, a bastiladon is not immortal. Morathi, with her max 3 damage/turn eventually reaches a state where she is immortal for the remainder of the game. E.g. when there's only 2 turns left and she has 7 wounds she can do as she pleases without worrying about any consequences because it's literally impossible to do 7 damage to her in that case. A bastiladon on the other hand is always killeable, even if you only have 1 turn to do it in.

    As for contesting objectives, she's more than capable of beating a MSU of say Skinks to a pulp. It might take a turn or two, but the skinks won't be able to fight her off. And with the shared health-pool and max 3 damage/turn she won't really care about any damage she suffers in retaliation because her big monster form is probably off fighting something and getting stabbed 3 times per turn most of the time anyway, making most damage she suffers irrelevant as that'd just be absorbed by her iron heart. Providing an immense amount of freedom to her caster form compared to any other caster. She'l be much less concerned about screens because of this.

    This is also super annoying to deal with as her opponent as you very quickly run into the situation where an entire unit's combat potential is wasted. You only need to do 3 damage on one of her two forms before you reach the cap for that turn. If she enters combat with both forms her opponent is basicly guaranteed to have one of his units do 0 damage even if he'd roll perfectly.

    Cuz it's not the least bit fun to deal with. Especially as ignoring her only halfway works, given that she has both long range spells & a fairly decent melee profile split over her two models (decent enough at least to punish you if you don't take care of her). She might not be the best, but she's going to have an impact even if you try to slow her down with screens. And those screens aren't going to last long. Not to mention those screens would probably be more usefull blocking the charging doomstar of witch aelves.

    On top of that, even if your screens slow her down enough and aren't needed for other things, if you don't do enough damage to her you eventually reach a point where she literally becomes unkillable no matter what you've got left on the table, which on occasion is going to win her games. Not because you lack the firepower to take her down, but simply because you can't do more than those 3 wounds worth of damage. There's going to be games where Morathi wins the game by say facing a horde of buffed up plaguemonks on her own and only surviving because she happened to have 4 wounds left at the start of this turn, never mind that the plaguemonks did 30+ damage or something equally absurd, the iron heart absorded it all.

    anyway tl;dr: 2 models with a shared health pool, a broad range of powers (magic, melee combat, fairly fast) & a rule like iron heart is just an annoying and frustrating thing to face. Even if it's not necesarly the most powerfull thing.

    On the bright side, I like the idea of the shared health pool. That has potential.
     
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  17. JscoobertDoobert
    Skink

    JscoobertDoobert Member

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    I think it’s worth mentioning that if it’s 3 wounds per turn and not per round putting her into melee combat is a bad play for the DoK player as he has now doubled the amount of damage he takes a round. If he stays out of melee the opposing play can only damage her on their turn and will be forced to charge in to be able to fight in the DoK players turn. I think this is important to her balance as the DoK player can’t recklessly throw her into melee and has to be smart about baiting in smart melee combats on the opposing players turn to minimize the amount of damage taken. At 12 wounds if she charges in first turn shes dead by the end of the 2nd round. Also her being in melee pretty much means you can safely ignore her with shooting and magic attacks as you only need to deal 3 damage with whoever’s tangled up by her, which lets you take out more important things to thin the herd.
     
  18. Erta Wanderer
    Skink Priest

    Erta Wanderer Well-Known Member

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    that is even less of a problem then what i thought you ment. that means the DoK has been sitting on his thumbs with 1/4th of his army for 3 rounds doing nothing just so she can no longer be killed. any one who does this has already lost the game and his opponent is a fool for not capitalizing on it

    it would take her 2-4 combats to kill a 1 man of skinks. her on foot version is terrible at fighting

    ..... yes if you let 2 charges go off into your main combat units one of which is being charged by a foot wizard then you will indeed only get 1 meaningful fight out of that and it would serve you right for playing so poorly. or you could retreat from one of them giving your unit a extra move and run to get onto objectives or in a better position to charge in your turn. it's only frustrating and useless if you play badly.


    no she has a bad melee profile. on a 480 point monster that is supposed to be a melee beat stick her damage is just sad. most screens will tie her up for 2 or more combats thats just horrible and waaaaay more then can be said about most hammers or even anvils in this game. i would defiantly pay 60 points to tie up 1/4th of my opponents army for a round

    this is not a problem not even close. as i said above any half descent player can deal 3 damage to her especially if she is participating at all. she only has a 4+ save and you have 2 targets to chase.

    good to know that the only thing you like about a model that has been around for 2+ years now and not used(because it's nether broken or really all that good) is the thing that makes it substantially worse
     
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  19. Putzfrau
    Skink Chief

    Putzfrau Well-Known Member

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    Wasn't this general sentiment essentially your same problem with gargants? And lumineth? If everything feels unfun, maybe its not the game thats the problem but what you're looking for from it.
     
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2020
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  20. Jason839
    Terradon

    Jason839 Well-Known Member

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    Morathi still takes extra mortal wounds from endless spells during the time between turns right? If so I still have no issue with the way she works.
     
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