AoS NEW *rumor*

[Dread Saurian]

nothing has been released yet we are working from leaked pics from a Italian tomb. as for if a teleport would save Sigvald, no it would not he would still be painfully mediocre. it would make his game plan susceptible to dispelling and you would be better off just teleporting a good unit instead

I mean just treat him as a daemon prince because it'll inevitably label him as that in a FAQ

 

[Erta Wanderer]

wow the slaanesh warscrolls are a massive disappointment over all. it is on brand for GW they all look great so they have to be awful but dang i was hoping GW was getting better about that.

so slaangor 140 points for 3 move 8 bravery 6 wounds 3 save 5+ attacks 3 4/3/-1/1 with a extra attack when they charge the bos has a aditional 2 damage version and a 4+ chance for each model to do 1 MW at the end of combat phase... wow thats bad. 9 1 damage attacks that hit on 4s for 140 and nothing else. i can see why every one is ridiculing these guys

the keeper is unchanged buuuuut with the change to locus and summoning they are not the boogeyman they once where and they weren't even all that bad in the last few months

lord of pain a nifty buff hero that lets you reroll hit rolls wholly within 12. sounds good until you realise he only moves 6 when most of the combat units move 8 and he is in a melee army so he will rarely be close enough to even use it aaand he costs 150 points ouch

blade bringer on chariot a lot of attacks but all of them wound on 4s so dont expect her to deal any damage.and she is a wizard! whos bounds spell lets you reroll 1s to hit.... against a single enemy unit

blissbarb archers 1 wound each 6+ save 6" move 6 bravery 2 attacks 4/4/-1/1 they can run and shoot but miss out on the armies exploding 6s to hit as they aren't in melee and they cost ....160 points for 11 models wow they could halve the points on these guys and it wouldn't be a problem

blissbarb seekers ok better then the foot versions they are 4 wounds 5+ save 14 move 6 bravery 3 attacks 4/4/-1/1 still have run and shoot which makes them blazing fast and their 6s to wound become mortal wounds all for the low low price of 180 for 5 models that is still way to much

hellstriders 140 for 5 so not terable. 2 wounds 4+ save 14 move 6 bravery. why is the melee cav less durable then the ranged ones? 1 attack from spears 3/4/-1/1 with 2 damage on the charge and 2 attacks 3/4/-/1 soooo not great they can reroll charges though.

myrmidesh painbringers the heavy armored guys 2 wounds 4+ saves and can reroll saves in melee. 6 move and 7 bravery. 2 attacks 3/3/-1/1 and 6s to wound are MWs aaaaand 150 for 5 probably the best unit hear they are essentially mortec guard with no recovery and half the attacks

so over all not a lot of good hear. i see a whole lot of glass and very little canon in this glass cannon army and every thing is at least 30 points over costed

 

[Canas]

I think a good chunk of their power might be stuck in their allegiance abilities, battalions etc. which is why their warscrolls look fairly overcosted at first glance. Especially as the few examples we have seen of allegiance abilities are army-wide buffs that are decently impactfull, and that was just the basic stuff.

Also, as hellstriders seem to be the "weak" cavalry option, Slickblade seekers are the equivalent of the blissbarb seekers.

 

[Erta Wanderer]

I think a good chunk of their power might be stuck in their allegiance abilities, battalions etc. which is why their warscrolls look fairly overcosted at first glance. Especially as the few examples we have seen of allegiance abilities are army-wide buffs that are decently impactfull, and that was just the basic stuff.

Also, as hellstriders seem to be the "weak" cavalry option, Slickblade seekers are the equivalent of the blissbarb seekers.

but we know what their main allegiance abilities and battalions are. they are exploding 6s in melee a even further nerfed locus and summoning. their subfactions we know less of but i doubt they can revers how awful these are.
as for their battalions they are good but not overwhelmingly so and none of them fix the problem that their damage is bad and they are all made of glass

 

[Jason839]

I was hoping they would be ultra competitive. More armies need to be KO, Tzeentch, Lumineth and Seraphon level. Id like to see them Raise everyone up instead of constantly nerfing down.

 

[Canas]

but we know what their main allegiance abilities and battalions are. they are exploding 6s in melee a even further nerfed locus and summoning. their subfactions we know less of but i doubt they can revers how awful these are.
as for their battalions they are good but not overwhelmingly so and none of them fix the problem that their damage is bad and they are all made of glass

I tend to not follow leaks, so usually not too aware of that.

As for how bad they are, I can't help but feel like they aren't so much bad as much as that the current top tier is just OP in comparison. Had they been released at the start of AoS they'd probably have been some of the stronger units.

I was hoping they would be ultra competitive. More armies need to be KO, Tzeentch, Lumineth and Seraphon level. Id like to see them Raise everyone up instead of constantly nerfing down.

Meh, an eternal armsrace is unhealthy. So constantly raising up the weaker ones doesn't work. It usually just means that whatever made OP faction X problematic will be twice as annoying when it next gets updated.

 

[Erta Wanderer]

I tend to not follow leaks, so usually not too aware of that.

As for how bad they are, I can't help but feel like they aren't so much bad as much as that the current top tier is just OP in comparison. Had they been released at the start of AoS they'd probably have been some of the stronger units.

no, no they would not. we can tell this by going back to said units and finding that they are still waaaaay to expensive. some of these units compare badly to BoC(the worst army in the game at the moment) and they are old as dirt. slaangor are decidedly worse then bulgor and they are widely paned as what NOT to do with elite units. the archers are on par damage wise with ungor raiders and are 60 points more expensive. the wizard has the most useless spell si can think of. i could go on but no these warscrolls are just bad.

 

[Erta Wanderer]

on the other hand the new DoK book is bonkers. a lot of fight twice a bunch of stuff got 30-70 points cheaper hearos can have -2 to be shot, mind razor got better! ...and they still have rerollable ward saves
they are going to be one heck of a foil for seraphon

 

[Jason839]

on the other hand the new DoK book is bonkers. a lot of fight twice a bunch of stuff got 30-50 points cheaper hearos can have -2 to be shot...and they still have rerollable ward saves

Yeah. They kept all the good stuff and got more good stuff. GW needs to get better at making their books the same quality. Mawtribes was bad, our book was great. KO was great, Sons was bad. DoK is amazing, Slaneesh is not. Its like there are two writers and one makes things too strong and the other one makes things too weak.

 

[Erta Wanderer]

the snek endless spell is within 9 and move 9 40 points

 

[Canas]

no, no they would not. we can tell this by going back to said units and finding that they are still waaaaay to expensive.

They're expensive yeah, but their stats aren't outright terrible. There is a solid core in there on their warscrolls. But imho it just looks half-done and like it's expected for allegiance abilities and the like to fill in the blanks. If the missing allegiance abilities etc. turn out to not fill in the missing gaps, then yeah they're pretty much universally overpriced.

the archers are on par damage wise with ungor raiders and are 60 points more expensive.

They have twice as many attacks, rend, and the same hit-rate (1 in 3 attacks will cause a save) provided the Slaanesh archers have a homonculus & the Ungors are in a group of 30+ with the homonculus being significantly easier to keep alive. How is that on par? In the worst case scenario they still have double the attacks & rend as an advantage. Not saying that's necesarly worth the added cost, but its still a higher damage output.

the wizard has the most useless spell si can think of.

Yeah, that spell is rather odd, especially considering they already have several other re-rolls, including an army wide re-roll with the right subfaction.

the snek endless spell is within 9 and move 9 40 points

I'm curious how much complaining there will be about that spell, or DoK in general for that matter seeing as they seem to get rather good stuff.

 

[Kilvakar]

I'm curious how much complaining there will be about that spell, or DoK in general for that matter seeing as they seem to get rather good stuff.

Yeah, I think DoK will definitely start to jump up in the meta now. We won't have to worry too much about that spell, but a lot of armies will. Plus, it seems that DoK is going to be the melee blender army that Slaanesh used to be, lol!

I'm quite surprised that Slaanesh seems to be mediocre with their warscrolls, but everyone thought that with our book at first and we ended up really powerful. I thought with the massive number of new models coming out they'd want them to be OP as heck to drive sales. But maybe they know that a lot of people will buy new models just because they're new, regardless of how good the army is...

 

[Jason839]

seraphon vs dok was always a close match because we kill their heroes just as well as they kill ours. The issue is they have battalions worth taking. They will outdrop us. It will be hard to deal with potential doubles. I feel like 5-10 man chameleons will go up in stock even more as assassins. gotta get rid of witches brew early when its a 5+

 

[Erta Wanderer]

They're expensive yeah, but their stats aren't outright terrible. There is a solid core in there on their warscrolls. But imho it just looks half-done and like it's expected for allegiance abilities and the like to fill in the blanks. If the missing allegiance abilities etc. turn out to not fill in the missing gaps, then yeah they're pretty much universally overpriced.

what about 4s to hit and 5+s to save isn't bad? at bets that would me mediocre for a combat unit and only if they had very strong secondary options. they will have a terrible time againsed even bad armies just due to the fact that they can't put out any damage.

They have twice as many attacks, rend, and the same hit-rate (1 in 3 attacks will cause a save) provided the Slaanesh archers have a homonculus & the Ungors are in a group of 30+ with the homonculus being significantly easier to keep alive. How is that on par? In the worst case scenario they still have double the attacks & rend as an advantage. Not saying that's necesarly worth the added cost, but its still a higher damage output.

because both of their damage is crap the bliss barbs average 3 damage and max 7 and ungors average 2 (32%) max 5so even with their rend and double attacks they only do 1 additional point of damage and 2 max points of damage. in addition they both have run and shoot so yeah fairly comparable. you also ignored my other example so lets see what we can do about that.
slaangors do a average of 3 damage max 7 as apposed to bulgors who average 4 and max 10 and is wildly considered to be terrible,
if we go further to examples i didn't make we have the myrmadin who avrage 3 damage max 7 if we compar them to bestagor they lose the reroll saves but gain run and charge can pile in 4" (thus avoiding most damage and being a over all better defensive ability in todays high rend MW game)and do average 5 max 10 with out charging and average 8 max 13 when charging for 30 points less. we could compare them to a more even parallel in mortec(who they are the same price as) but as i said originally that's hardly a far comparison
if we compare hell striders with centagores we get the same movement same save the centagors can run and charge over rerolling charges a better movement option by about 1" on average the hell striders deal 3 max 7 damage when not charging and 5 max 10 when charging and centagores do 2 max 6 when not charging and 4 max 8 when charging all that for 60 points less.
i will keep comparing them to BoC (it's surprising how evenly they compare) but i have a meeting to get to so i will be back

 

[Canas]

what about 4s to hit and 5+s to save isn't bad? at bets that would me mediocre for a combat unit and only if they had very strong secondary options.

It roughly equals fully buffed skinks....
A fully buffed unit of skinks (with starpriest & priest) costs 430 points, scores about 13 hits and 5 mortal wounds.

430 points worth of blissbarb archers would be ~30 archers (2.5 units) which would have 60/4+/3+/-1/1 which would be 20 hits at -1 rend. Depending on the value of rend & mortal wounds that's reasonably comparable.

They really don't seem to be all that much of an outlier. Especially considering it's a ranged support option for an army that's supposed to be pure melee and who's weakness is supposed to be a lack of ranged firesupport.

because both of their damage is crap the bliss barbs average 3 damage and max 7 and ungors average 2 (32%) max 5so even with their rend and double attacks they only do 1 additional point of damage and 2 max points of damage. in addition they both have run and shoot so yeah fairly comparable.

11 blissbarb archers have ranged attacks of 21/4+/3+/-1/1 that's 7 hits at -1 rend. How do you get to 3?
10 ungors have have 10/4+/4+/-/1. that hits 2.5 times at no rend.

How did you get such odd numbers?

you also ignored my other example so lets see what we can do about that.

Yes I know, I ignored it because your example about the archers is confusing and I have no idea how you got your numbers, so I'd like to know how you get there first.

 

[Erta Wanderer]

It roughly equals fully buffed skinks....
A fully buffed unit of skinks (with starpriest & priest) costs 430 points, scores about 13 hits and 5 mortal wounds.

actualy a fully buffed 40 man skink unit has between 4 and 28 hits with the average being 16(15%)ish with a MW out put of 2-14 avrage 8(15%)ish i think you are forgetting a buff in there somewhere. probably reroll 1s. lets add that to the stat

430 points worth of blissbarb archers would be ~30 archers (2.5 units) which would have 60/4+/3+/-1/1 which would be 20 hits at -1 rend. Depending on the value of rend & mortal wounds that's reasonably comparable.

you can't take 0.5 of a unit so that is a bit disingenuous but lets go with that any way.

They really don't seem to be all that much of an outlier. Especially considering it's a ranged support option for an army that's supposed to be pure melee and who's weakness is supposed to be a lack of ranged firesupport.


11 blissbarb archers have ranged attacks of 21/4+/3+/-1/1 that's 7 hits at -1 rend. How do you get to 3?

because saves are a thing

10 ungors have have 10/4+/4+/-/1. that hits 2.5 times at no rend.

How did you get such odd numbers?

i get those numbers because i don't use average hits as that is a terrible method of determining damage output i use damage probability spreads. i used to use charts for this but Lustria online has stopped letting me do that so im going to have to wright it all out hear we go. all damage is calculated against a 4+ save as is standard with light mathhammer
in the case of fully buffed 40 skinks we have a damage probability spread of 11(1%) 12(2%) 13(3%) 14(4%) 15(6%) 16(7%) 17(9%) 18(9%) 19(10%) 20(9%) 21(9%) 22(8%) 23(6%) 24(5%) 25(4%) 26(3%) 27(2%) 28(1%)anything below a 1% chance is ignored as statistically improbable.


28.5 blissbarbs 5(1%) 6(3%) 7 (5%) 8(7%) 9(10) 10(11%) 11(12%) 12(12%) 13(11%) 14(9%) 15(7%) 16(5%) 17(3%) 18(1%)
so no where near skinks a 6-10 point difference or 5 times bigger divide then to ungores who you claim are to week to compare. they do compare better to unbuffed skinks but that was not your argument and unbuffed skinks suck

even to 28.5 43 ungor raders we have 4(1%) 5(4%) 6(7%) 7(10%) 8(13) 9(14%) 10(14%) 11(12%) 12(9%) 13(6%) 14(4%) 15(2%) 16(1%) as you can see we have a average of 1-2 damage difference which is about what i said originally. this is assuming horde bonus on ungorse(not hard to maintain in a ranged unit) of rerolling 1s and 2s in addition you get to pile in from 4" move 6" immediately after set up and have a additional 4.5 wounds. it does drop off if you use them in smaller numbers but we are judging both at their best without buffs. as is standard in light mathhammer. even if you do harp on the fact that min units of ungores are weaker the fact that a unit from the worst army compares at all is a daming rebuke to the new warscrolls. on top of that non horde bonus ungors at this scale are only off by 4-7 points which is less of a gap then it is between blisbarb and skink who you yourself compaired favorably to.

so yeah the reason i can compare them like that is because i actually do the proper leg work. if you want deep mathhammer i can get you the full spread sheets as well. fun fact it does not treat blissbarbs much better
and all of this is if whe don't compare Blissbarbs to a actually good shooting unit

Yes I know, I ignored it because your example about the archers is confusing and I have no idea how you got your numbers, so I'd like to know how you get there first

.ignoring the inconvenient part of a argument does not look good on you. i think you are better then that and so i am going to keep calling you on it.

 

[Erta Wanderer]

i have edited the above statement due to a mistake on my part.

 

[Killer Angel]

Yes I know, I ignored it because your example about the archers is confusing and I have no idea how you got your numbers, so I'd like to know how you get there first.

.ignoring the inconvenient part of a argument does not look good on you. i think you are better then that and so i am going to keep calling you on it.

i don't think @Canas was acually ignoring it out of convenience. If he wasn't able to understand your math on calculations, it's hard to reply.

 

[Erta Wanderer]

i don't think @Canas was acually ignoring it out of convenience. If he wasn't able to understand your math on calculations, it's hard to reply.

then he should say that instead of just dropping it. say that there is a misunderstanding and that he needs clarification don't just keep attacking one part of the argument while ignoring the far more serius parts.

 

[Erta Wanderer]

i say this because it gets very aggravating to do large amounts of probability calculations in response to a point or question just for the majority of it to be ignored