Poll: Which is the best trilogy of the Star Wars saga? PT vs. OT vs. ST

[Just A Skink]

I had missed this post, but holy smokes how true is this!?

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Especially General Grievance.

As well as confederates, Commander Nefarious, Captain I'm A Bad Guy and Admiral Bone To Pick.

I despise his dumb mahrlect name. His lack of exposition.

I had seen the Clone Wars prior to Episode III, so General Grievous worked out fine for me. That said, many didn't, so it is a valid criticism. The Clone Wars set him up as an extremely dangerous opponent who can cut through most Jedi with ease, but without experiencing that, he seems out of place in Episode III.

I despise his dumb mahrlect name.

I think the name is okay, not great, but okay. Not as good as someone like Darth Maul (which is fitting, as I view General Grievous to be a poor man's Darth Maul).

His stupid wheeze

I think I dislike General Grievance more than Jar Jar.

Wow.

Well, I'm sure you are in the minority on that one. @Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl ... as a Jar Jar fan, do you have an opinion on this?



and let us not forget...

 

[Scalenex]

That was bad ass.

GL should have put a live action version of this scene into episode II or III. That would have been magnficent...

EDIT: It also shows why Mace has a purple lightsaber. His attack was almost Dark Side-esque.

To make room for it, we can cut out the scene where Anakin goes out of his way to save the life of one clone pilot, or maybe overwrite his speech about sand, or maybe cut out the scene where R2D2 fights some battle droids in a very slapstick manner which undercuts the serious tone of Anakin concurrently killing Count Duku, or maybe the elevator talk where Anakin and Obi Wan talk about how often they saved each others' lives.

In most cases, it's a very bad idea for a television series to be "required viewing" for a movie.

 

[Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl]

I had seen the Clone Wars prior to Episode III, so General Grievous worked out fine for me. That said, many didn't, so it is a valid criticism. The Clone Wars set him up as an extremely dangerous opponent who can cut through most Jedi with ease, but without experiencing that, he seems out of place in Episode III.

Was Grievous supposed to be Force-sensitive in the Genndy series? Because if so I could understand why he is so powerful there, but if he wasn’t then his performance there really doesn’t fit with the established lore of him being non-Force-sensitive. Also in the Genndy series he is helped a lot by cartoon physics. I don’t take 2D cartoons seriously because of this.

I think a lot of the negativity towards Grievous is that he was marketed as a Jedi killer in this Genndy series to try and make him super badass, when it was not clear as to whether he actually could be one in the lore. He’s neither a Jedi or Sith, so how could he be Force sensitive unless they made up some lore where he was a Force sensitive Khaleesh that was bribed by Dooku to fight for the Separatists and trained in Lightsaber combat, in essence what Ventress turned out to be?

I don’t see Grievous as a Jedi killer, especially as he’s not Force sensitive - trying to kill a Jedi or Sith when you’re not Force-sensitive will always be an uphill battle, even if you’ve got more Lightsabers. Also Darth Maul is a Jedi killer, we don’t need to simply repeat him but with a couple of extra arms.

Instead, I see him as a Clone Trooper killer. To Clone Troopers something like Grievous is the ultimate terror - four Lightsabers can deflect every blaster bolt that comes his way, and their Clone armour is no protection when Grievous reaches melee range. And given Clone Troopers made up about 80% of the Republic’s army in the Clone Wars, Grievous would still have been an extremely effective weapon. He should have been marketed as a Clone Trooper killer.

I actually feel as though I agree with you @NIGHTBRINGER that Grievous is a bit out of place in Episode III. It would always have been difficult to match his threat level in the Genndy series with a performance in Episode III because he was squeezed into that one film alongside Count Dooku fighting his last duel and Sidious’ reveal as the ultimate bad guy of the universe. To be honest I think they should have just given Dooku a longer part and had him killed off around the time Grievous is killed in the actual film, because Christopher Lee was a fantastic actor and deserved more of a role in the Star Wars universe, especially as Dooku was also a sterling duellist, a master of Form II combat. They could have had a sequence where they are hunting Dooku on several planets without success, until they find him scheming some more with Darth Sidious, whereupon he faces the Republic army and cuts through through some Clone Troopers before a second duel with Anakin and Obi-Wan. Either that or they should have had Grievous be the main villain from Episode II to mid Episode III so he’d have ample time to demonstrate his Jedi or Clone killing abilities.

Well, I'm sure you are in the minority on that one. @Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl ... as a Jar Jar fan, do you have an opinion on this?

As a fan of both characters this is a good question.

If you had asked me this when I was about 12 and had only just seen Episode I, I would have agreed with Scalenex in that Jar Jar was a better character than Grievous. Jar Jar was one of my absolute favourites when I was younger.

Now, my opinion is the other way around - Grievous is a more exciting character with plenty of menace, that had the power to be a real threat in the galaxy if Filoni hadn’t nerfed him so much.

Jar Jar is fun but ultimately just comic relief. It would have been great to develop him into something more than that, a character that was just pretending to be comic relief as Yoda did in Empire Strikes Back, but George caved to the moaning of the purists and dropped him out, rather than continuing his original vision.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Was Grievous supposed to be Force-sensitive in the Genndy series? Because if so I could understand why he is so powerful there, but if he wasn’t then his performance there really doesn’t fit with the established lore of him being non-Force-sensitive.

I don't believe he is. He does have some attributes to help mimic/counter the force (near instantaneous reaction time, augmented strength, ability to latch onto surfaces to avoid being force pushed and a psychological advantage which plays a huge role), but he never exhibits any force potential at all.

In the end though, we do see him lose easily to Mace Windu via the force. Count Dooku also has no trouble with him during their sparring/training. Obi-Wan also bests him pretty easily in terms of their lightsaber fight.

Sufficient force powers should easily thwart a non-force user. That's why Obi-Wan vs. Jango Fett makes little sense in Episode II. It's also why I was surprised when you had previously argued for Baze against a prime Luke Skywalker.

I don’t take 2D cartoons seriously because of this.

To be fair, I don't know if we can take any of this seriously.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Okay... now that we've had plenty of time for discussion and voting has seemed to have stalled, it's time for a bit of deeper analysis. With that in mind, I've created a little chart tabulating the relative strong and weak points of the trilogies across what I consider some key aspects with which to compare the films.

For each category I've assigned which trilogy I felt was the best (denoted in blue), worst (denoted in red) and neutral/middle (denoted by a blank white square). If I felt that multiple trilogies fared equally well or equally poorly, I assigned them the same designation. These were then converted to a numerical score:

• Best = 1
• Neutral = 0
• Worst = -1

Finally, each of the scores is multiplied by a weighting score ranging from 1 to 5. These weighting scores are simply a subjective assessment of how important the category is to my personal assessment of the films (5 being most important and 1 being the least important).

So for example, in the case of lightsaber fights they would be scored as follows:

• PT = BEST * Weighting Score = 1 * 5 = 5
• OT = Neutral * Weighting Score = 0 * 5 = 0
• ST = WORST * Weighting Score = -1 * 5 = -5

All in all, the total scores seem to be very reflective of what I feel about the trilogies on a general level.

 

[Scalenex]

I don't think memeability should be it's own category.

Impact on the film industry and society and impact on the franchise/fandom both feed meme culture.

I also don't know if you can conclusively state that the music in the prequels and OT is better than Disney sequel. As far as I can hear, the quality of the music has been constant as the North Star, so it would be a three-way tie.

I don't think the Original Trilogy and Prequel Trilogy are tied for lack of identity politics. The PT does not have near as much identity politics and SJW stuff in it as the Disney trilogy but it was there. A 14 year old girl as ruler of an entire planet and she happens to be trained in using grappling hooks and is a crack shot? Yup, that stands up to scrutiny.


In any event, it's hard to throw points on something that is pretty subjective.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

I don't think memeability should be it's own category.

Impact on the film industry and society and impact on the franchise/fandom both feed meme culture.

Memebringer is displeased after reading this statement!

While impact on film industry, society and franchise/fandom do help feed Memeability, they are definitely not the same thing. Take Episode III (perhaps the most memeable movie ever) for instance, there are many movies that are far more impactful but provide us with far less meme-fodder. For example, The Godfather, T2, The Dark Knight, Jaws and Alien are all far more impactful than ROTS, but ROTS easily has them beat in terms of memes. A New Hope is clearly more important to the franchise, but it too falls short of ROTS in terms of memes.

That said, is it an important category... definitely not. That's why it was only weighted as a "1".

I also don't know if you can conclusively state that the music in the prequels and OT is better than Disney sequel. As far as I can hear, the quality of the music has been constant as the North Star, so it would be a three-way tie.

To be honest, I originally had them in a three way tie, but upon further contemplation, I felt the other two trilogies had the ST beat. The music is of high quality across all the films, but the ST can't beat the PT or the OT in terms of truly iconic songs.

PT:

• Dual of Fates!!!
• Across the Stars
• Battle of the Heroes

OT:

• Star Wars main theme (during the opening crawl)
• Imperial March
• Force Theme
• Cantina Band

The ST does have Rey's theme which is actually really nice, but overall it just doesn't boast the really big guns that the PT and OT do. The PT and OT have the more memorable tunes and hence I eventually gave them the nod.

I don't think the Original Trilogy and Prequel Trilogy are tied for lack of identity politics. The PT does not have near as much identity politics and SJW stuff in it as the Disney trilogy but it was there. A 14 year old girl as ruler of an entire planet and she happens to be trained in using grappling hooks and is a crack shot? Yup, that stands up to scrutiny.

First, I don't think George Lucas was trying to push any of that stuff. I have no issue with a female character being extremely skilled as long as it is justified in the story and not driven by outside political influences. I've never seen Lucas try to peddle that stuff in Star Wars.

So is it justified?

• 14 year old ruler: although not likely/common, it is definitely feasible. In story spanning a galaxy's worth of planets this doesn't stand out too much. There have been many much younger rulers in real life, and we're only one planet.
• trained using grappling hooks: honestly, how much training do you think one needs using grappling hooks? I'm pretty sure that in a day I could learn to do it, if not less... and I have zero experience. Ever see what a female gymnast can do at the age of 14... makes a grappling hook seem pretty rudimentary
• crack shot: So was Leia. As are most of the main characters.

Padme is far from overpowered or Mary Sueish. I mean, she died of sadness after all.

 

[Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl]

Personally I agree with @NIGHTBRINGER (for once when it comes to Star Wars ) when it comes to the soundtracks. Episodes I-VI all have their highlights:

EPISODE I:
Duel of the Fates
Jar Jar’s Introduction and the Swim to Otoh Gunga (what? It’s a good piece of music, especially the swim to Otoh Gunga part )
The Droid Invasion and The Appearance of Darth Maul
Qui-Gon’s Funeral

EPISODE II
Zam the Assassin and the Chase through Coruscant
Jango’s Escape

EPISODE III
Battle of the Heroes
Anakin vs Obi-Wan (and Yoda vs Sidious)
General Grievous’ theme
Jedi Temple March

EPISODE IV
Obi-Wan’s Theme
Cantina Band
TIE Fighter Attack
The Battle of Yavin
The Medal Ceremony

EPISODE V
The Imperial March
The Asteroid Field

EPISODE VI
Palpatine’s Theme throughout the Battle of Endor tracks

Also it’s a bit of a surprise that @NIGHTBRINGER highly rates the soundtrack of the Anakin/Padme romance even though he hates the romance itself

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Also it’s a bit of a surprise that @NIGHTBRINGER highly rates the soundtrack of the Anakin/Padme romance even though he hates the romance itself

The dialogue and acting were horrible for those scenes, but the music was absolutely fantastic. @Mrs. NIGHTBRINGER and I had Across the Stars play at our wedding reception.

 

[Scalenex]

The dialogue and acting were horrible for those scenes, but the music was absolutely fantastic. @Mrs. NIGHTBRINGER and I had Across the Stars play at our wedding reception.

Did you get married at the beach or in a desert. Somewhere with sand. Please tell me your wedding reception had sand!

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Did you get married at the beach or in a desert. Somewhere with sand. Please tell me your wedding reception had sand!

We got married at a resort in Cuba... so there was sand . But we didn't choose the beach wedding option (which is never as good as people imagine). Our resort had a special third floor gazebo-like area for weddings, so we went for that option instead.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Another vote trickles in for the OT!

 

[Imrahil]

I just finished the PT last night and my judgement so far is:

- I disliked the first episode. This realy felt like a set up movie, to have more backstory to the next episodes.

- I liked the second(apart from the rescue attempt of Obi-Wan by Anakin and Padme and the scene in the Arena)
- The third one I liked as well.

Grrr, Imrahil

Do you remember this moment, well... I directly started Episode IV, but roughly 15 minutes in I couldn't bother to continue watching... and finally I finished watching it today.

The start(after the droids are sent off) of the movie is very slow and boring, but after that I find the action much more enjoyable then the PT's. It somehow serves the storyline more.
Still the other 2 OT movies to watch.

Grrr, Imrahil

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

I directly started Episode IV, but roughly 15 minutes in I couldn't bother to continue watching... and finally I finished watching it today.

The start(after the droids are sent off) of the movie is very slow and boring,

That is a lost art in today's cinema. I find older movies took more time to develop tension/mood/tone. Prime examples are the original Planet of the Apes, Alien, Jaws, The Abyss, etc. This works for some people and not for others. It is definitely a contrast from what we more typically see today.

Still the other 2 OT movies to watch.

Those are the very best ones. Especially episode V

 

[Lizards of Renown]

Those are the very best ones. Especially episode V

My favorite will always be Episode VI

Possibly because of the conditioning I received as a child... (we watched it every Christmas)

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

My favorite will always be Episode VI

Episode VI is my second favourite. Unfortunately the Ewoks hinder the movie, putting it below Episode V.

 

[Scalenex]

If you take the Ewoks out, stormtroopers stop being a running gag.

Except during the escape scene in New Hope (where the stormtroopers were ordered to let the Rebels escape), they are always deadly threats, until such time that they fight the Ewoks.

The Return of the Jedi novel was written after the movie, but one major difference was that lots and lots of Ewoks died.

They outnumbered the stormtroopers at least two-to-one and had the home court advantage but they still struggled to defeat the Empire given their inferior weapons.

At least as many Ewoks died in the book as stormtroopers did. In the movie, one Ewok died.

 

[Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl]

If you take the Ewoks out, stormtroopers stop being a running gag.

Except during the escape scene in New Hope (where the stormtroopers were ordered to let the Rebels escape), they are always deadly threats, until such time that they fight the Ewoks.

Nope, they are crap in 5 as well. They lose a fair few men and vehicles trying to take Hoth (which was hardly a whitewash because they make the Empire behave so stupidly) and fail to stop the heroes escaping Cloud City later on in the film. They don’t even inflict any glancing wounds on them. Pretty pathetic for guys who are supposed to be the Empire’s main enforcers.

Also that stuff about being ordered to let the Rebels escape is pretty unlikely given the Stormtroopers are still trying to fight them in the first place - why even order the Stormtroopers to fight them in the first place, and throw away troops that could have been spared to use elsewhere in the Civil War, when you could just get them to withdraw from all the corridors and let the Rebels escape, giving them a free run to the Falcon?

The Return of the Jedi novel was written after the movie, but one major difference was that lots and lots of Ewoks died.

They outnumbered the stormtroopers at least two-to-one and had the home court advantage but they still struggled to defeat the Empire given their inferior weapons.

At least as many Ewoks died in the book as stormtroopers did. In the movie, one Ewok died.

Pity that wasn’t shown in the film. Given Star Wars is a film franchise first and foremost, the films take priority over any novelisation.

In the Episode I novelisation they introduce another Gungan character, General Ceel, who is the overall commander of the Gungan forces in the Battle of Naboo, and give Captain Tarpals more of a showing, but Ceel’s part in the film is melded with Tarpals’ part. As much as I’d like to see Ceel as a film character, he will sadly always be confined to the novelisation.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Also that stuff about being ordered to let the Rebels escape is pretty unlikely given the Stormtroopers are still trying to fight them in the first place - why even order the Stormtroopers to fight them in the first place, and throw away troops that could have been spared to use elsewhere in the Civil War, when you could just get them to withdraw from all the corridors and let the Rebels escape, giving them a free run to the Falcon?

An attempt at deception. If you meet no resistance, there is a greater chance you become suspicious. Even though the heroes saw through it, that was the intention.