(POTENTIAL CONTROVERSY) 007 Film Continued Discussion

[NIGHTBRINGER]

What’s wrong with people pointing out hypocrisy where it’s present? The other part was me just explaining why they were being hypocritical, but in terms of the actual calling out, I fail to see the problem. We should all be willing to listen and take into account criticism; it’s just basic self improvement. Just because an arsehole is being nice to you personally doesn’t mean you should stop calling them out for being an arsehole.

The hypocrisy is complaining that not enough women have won athlete of the year, when you a female athlete, has just been awarded it. In psychological terms that isn't a way to reinforce a behavior. With negative reinforcement the aversive stimulus (SJW whining) should be removed upon elicitation of the desired behavior (women being awarded the athlete of the year). Then again, B.F. Skinner's operant conditioning wasn't based off of the cognitively deficient SJW mind, so in this case, your beloved Rapinoe might be right all along.

Also, there is no rule that athlete of the year should be chosen equally from male and female groups (personally, it would be better to have separate male and female athletes of the year). The fact is that, outside of a very few notable exceptions, male sports/leagues/divisions are infinitely more popular, competitive and lucrative than female ones. As such, it would make logical (and financial) sense the more male athletes would win the award.

Shaprio seems to derive a great deal of joy from the fact that two negative forces, SJW editors at SI and the woke Rapinoe, are clashing. This is just another case of the left eating the left. That is a good thing from my vantage point. Just like the fact that feminism and transgender groups are beginning to butt heads.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

 

[ravagekitteh]

I don't think it will ever happen.

I could debate about Sweden, with the fact that those teens are educated by the same parents that are pushing their society and their laws toward total equality, so the cultural stereotypes should be very low, but i don't think this would be a really valid objection, as we are still heavily subjected to a global culture that still tends to put genders in preordined cultural schemes.

No, the reason i don't think it will ever happen, is because male and female are different.
Our bodies work in different ways, and also our minds do the same. Equal opportunities, even with no social prejudices, will still lead to different choices because of our inner differences.

You can wait a century, you're not going to have olympic games with a unique weight lifting contest, with men and women in the same cathegory.
You can wait a century, you are not going to see a 50% and 50% of men and women have a job as car mechanic, plumber, or nurse.

If you look at STEM (science, technology, engineering and mathematics), within those fields of study, barring some notable exception (mostly in chemistry), they are premanently "male".
While it's true that many factors contribute to develope the attitudes towards this kind of jobs (including prejudices, stereotypes and lack of models, i'll give you that), current meta-analysis proved that men prefer working with things and women prefer working with people, and a 2015 study (based on almost half a million data within 67 nations, from the Program for International Students) revealed the gender-equality paradox: the more gender equal societies are, the less equal they are in the choices men and women make with respect to STEM education and careers.

Equality is the goal, but equality won't have also conformity as a consequence.
(and, by reverse, lack of conformity doesn't necessarily mean lack of equality / same opportunities)





EDIT: wow, i remember @Scalenex telling how he would have liked to have constructive political and social debates here on Lustria. I think he should be satisfied.

I don’t think it will ever entirely be 50-50 either, but I still think the gap is too great to just put it down to “men prefer this, women prefer that”. Even if there does end up being that skew, it’s not like there’s any downsides to abolishing gender stereotypes - there will always be people who don’t fit the mould, and they shouldn’t feel alienated for not wanting to do “what boys are supposed to do”. Equality of opportunity should always be something to strive for, and until the day when we can categorically say it’s been achieved (and even then, we should still work to maintain it), assuming it’s presence whilst waving away potential signs of it not being so as “boys will be boys” or whatever helps nobody.

 

[Aginor]

I am also fine with the outcome not being equal, as long as the opportunites are there. But there are very few places in the world where that is really the case now.
And yes that goes both ways (it should for example be acceptable to be a male hairstylist without constantly having your sexuality doubted)

Might write more about the topic tomorrow or so. But not now, I am tired.

 

[Infinity Turtle]

Okay... so I'm a lady of sorts and also Gen Z, so "something something, you people ruined my environment, geez, why don't I earn as much as you guys at my low wage Macca's job? Blah blah, why don't I get paid as much as Leonardo Di Caprio now that I've graduated with A+s in high school drama class? Yada yada, you entitled white people..." or something along those lines...

Spoiler: "Macca's"?

Urban Dictionary:
maccas
That is what Australian's call the giant golden arches conglomerate (McDonalds) that invaded our country like all other developed nation in the world.

"No country with a maccas has ever waged war against the United States."

I stopped collecting quotes around page 2, after which I skimmed through to the end, so I'm sorry if I repeat something or contradict a reputable data source but here goes...

So obviously growing up in Australia as a girl is different from whatever you guys have experienced or heard about, so perhaps there will be a conflict of opinions/information purely based on circumstance, so please don't stab my dog or something out of rage (haha jokes on you, I don't have a dog...), but the circles I have dwelt within over the past few years have been blatantly nondiscriminatory towards me or my practices/beliefs/friends/family etc. This thread is now filled with a bunch of posts that make pretty vague statements beneath the guise of more specific points (see that? that's generalisation. It might come up later...), and because of my non-confrontational personality and unwillingness to take sides, I won't, but it does help to just read through this discussion to see how things appear to play out.

Unfortunately when discussing topics like this, there are many shades of grey. Women have come along way over the past century in many different ways depending on culture and nationality etc., but people will always tend to focus on the past century as oppose to looking back at everything that has happened even earlier. In a way, history never repeats, but it always does, perhaps summed up in the lyrics "history never repeats, but we still never learn". Regardless of your belief system, humanity is not perfect, and it will continue to not be perfect, constantly moving through cycles of what's acceptable and what's taboo, therefore placing "feminism"/gender rights/equality/whatever next to everything white/straight/male/'minor' (as in minorities) people have done in the past 150 years is not a good idea.



I don't agree with what is the largely assumed 'feminist opinion', but I do believe in quality.

feminism
/ˈfɛmɪnɪz(ə)m/

noun
1. the advocacy of women's rights on the ground of the equality of the sexes.​

^ Dictionary


Yes, I believe in equality, so BASED PURELY ON THE DEFINITION ABOVE, I am a feminist, but these days feminism has taken a different shape completely and my beliefs do not align with it. In grade 8 for an english assignment, we were to present an oral based on the 'vibe' or format of Martin Luther King Jr.'s I Have a Dream speech, and I chose to speak about Gender Equality. In my all girls grade 8 english class, this was well received, meaningful, got me an A, and I believed what a said. I'll put a couple of (grammatically incorrect) excerpts in, just to show how gender equality is though about from a kid's perspective:

"
I believe that next time there is playground teasing, that our name will not be the subject of an insult. An insult so embedded in our minds, we don’t even think about it, but I want you to think about it now.

If you don’t want to do something, would you like this to be the response? If you feel uncomfortable? If you are currently portrayed as weak?

“Don’t be a girl,”

For so long, this has gotten under the skin of kids on the playground. No one wants to be a girl. Because if in that situation, you do come across as weak, uncomfortable, you are now classified as a girl.
"

That is a valid point, still. being used as an insult is degrading, and this doesn't just apply to women. "Oawhhw that's so gay!", "You're such a spaz" etc.

"
Why should we be made to feel uncomfortable when we receive a random compliment on the street? Because nine times out of ten, that compliment wasn’t for us, it was for our image. It wasn’t an uplifting observation, it was an intruding and not well thought out statement...

...No one has a right to tell us how we should and shouldn’t look. The last thing you want to hear when you’re walking through Chermside in your new favourite uggies, is that you’re fat. Is that you’re hair is ugly. That you shoes look like they’re second hand, or maybe tenth hand.

By the way, if there was a stray animal on the street, how many people go and insult it about how it looks or if it walks funny. And if it is, someone is likely to respond and defend it, because society has told us dogs are cute, dogs have feelings, and I’m not one to disagree...

But some woman is maybe minding her own business walking down the footpath, and she is flogged with insults. No one defends her because it’s the norm.

Do we really exist in a world where that’s okay?
"

This argument is perhaps still valid, but the first two paragraphs contradict each other in a way. This is where there are shades of grey. This is where arguments fall apart. Every girl is beautiful and we should love them all, and every guy is a misogynistic rapist that has no soul (or they're Hugh Jackman, but I'm still firm in the belief that he is an angel sent from the heavens).

Now! Back to generalisation! (remember that?)
Let's say ten women walk into a vegan cat-cafe. Statistically, at least one is allergic to cats (sucks to be them, then), at least 6 of them are lactose intolerant, 2 will be Christian, 2 will be Islamic, chances are none will be LGBTQ+, but all of them (probably) will believe in gender equality.

BASED ON THE ABOVE DEFINITION OF FEMINISM, Ten feminists have just walked into the vegan cat cafe and chances are only 1, or less, will want all men dead and believe women should rule the world.

not all feminists are man-haters, and not all anti-feminists are rapist time travellers from the 1700s. Everything is a spectrum these days. Be careful where you place people on that spectrum, because generalisation and stereotyping create a cycle that is very hard to break.

Yes, this was just a whole bunch of opinionated waffling, but I hope it gives a bit of a different perspective...?

 

[Infinity Turtle]

I didn't not watch the latest Terminator and Charlies Angels movies because they were woke. I chose not to watch them because I didn't care. I didn't like the previous movies in the respective franchises.

Terminator Dark Fate is worth the watch. You can forget that T3, Salvation and Genysis ever happened, as it carries over directly from T2. It also takes time to develop certain ideas and people, which happened in a lot of 'older' sci fi, but not so much modern action/robot flicks. As far as wokeness goes...

Spoiler: Terminator: Dark Fate Spoilers

While protecting the main character, Sarah Connor explains it's because she(main character) will give birth to the (male) leader of the resistance probably, but PLOT TWIST its actually the main character herself who will lead the resistance in the future.

the three main characters are girls + Arnie (who is just a bloody legend, you knew that already) which is pretty Woke? But not equality!

Charlie's Angels was forced upon me as part of a 'girls day out', but it was actually alright as far aggressive wokeness goes. Having not seen the originals, there was some stuff lost on me, but aside from some implausible scenes and one particular shot of Kristen Stewart + less tasteful outfit(...?), it was fine. Wouldn't spend money on it, but nyeah.

Episode 8 is far from my favorite Star Wars movie.

let me guess... episode 1? 2? the best ones

Anyway, for many people it has been dead since the 1980s. ("Only Sean Connery is the real Bond" and the like)
Do I personally care? Not really. Since Daniel Craig took over I have seen one Bond movie and I didn't really like that one either.

I have only seen a handful of random ones but have watched (and own) all the daniel Craig ones. I enjoy them as movies. they're pretty good (some more than others). The other ones were fine as well: Moonraker (can't remember), You Only Live Twice (Sean Connery is just fun, ya know?), Gold Finger (Everyone got "killed/knocked out" very quickly...), Goldeneye (I really enjoy this one. Tank = Win)

 

[Paradoxical Pacifism]

Okay... so I'm a lady of sorts and also Gen Z, so "something something, you people ruined my environment, geez, why don't I earn as much as you guys at my low wage Macca's job? Blah blah, why don't I get paid as much as Leonardo Di Caprio now that I've graduated with A+s in high school drama class? Yada yada, you entitled white people..." or something along those lines...

Spoiler: "Macca's"?

Urban Dictionary:
maccas
That is what Australian's call the giant golden arches conglomerate (McDonalds) that invaded our country like all other developed nation in the world.

"No country with a maccas has ever waged war against the United States."

I stopped collecting quotes around page 2, after which I skimmed through to the end, so I'm sorry if I repeat something or contradict a reputable data source but here goes...

So obviously growing up in Australia as a girl is different from whatever you guys have experienced or heard about, so perhaps there will be a conflict of opinions/information purely based on circumstance, so please don't stab my dog or something out of rage (haha jokes on you, I don't have a dog...), but the circles I have dwelt within over the past few years have been blatantly nondiscriminatory towards me or my practices/beliefs/friends/family etc. This thread is now filled with a bunch of posts that make pretty vague statements beneath the guise of more specific points (see that? that's generalisation. It might come up later...), and because of my non-confrontational personality and unwillingness to take sides, I won't, but it does help to just read through this discussion to see how things appear to play out.

Unfortunately when discussing topics like this, there are many shades of grey. Women have come along way over the past century in many different ways depending on culture and nationality etc., but people will always tend to focus on the past century as oppose to looking back at everything that has happened even earlier. In a way, history never repeats, but it always does, perhaps summed up in the lyrics "history never repeats, but we still never learn". Regardless of your belief system, humanity is not perfect, and it will continue to not be perfect, constantly moving through cycles of what's acceptable and what's taboo, therefore placing "feminism"/gender rights/equality/whatever next to everything white/straight/male/'minor' (as in minorities) people have done in the past 150 years is not a good idea.



I don't agree with what is the largely assumed 'feminist opinion', but I do believe in quality.

feminism
/ˈfɛmɪnɪz(ə)m/

noun
1. the advocacy of women's rights on the ground of the equality of the sexes.​

^ Dictionary


Yes, I believe in equality, so BASED PURELY ON THE DEFINITION ABOVE, I am a feminist, but these days feminism has taken a different shape completely and my beliefs do not align with it. In grade 8 for an english assignment, we were to present an oral based on the 'vibe' or format of Martin Luther King Jr.'s I Have a Dream speech, and I chose to speak about Gender Equality. In my all girls grade 8 english class, this was well received, meaningful, got me an A, and I believed what a said. I'll put a couple of (grammatically incorrect) excerpts in, just to show how gender equality is though about from a kid's perspective:

"
I believe that next time there is playground teasing, that our name will not be the subject of an insult. An insult so embedded in our minds, we don’t even think about it, but I want you to think about it now.

If you don’t want to do something, would you like this to be the response? If you feel uncomfortable? If you are currently portrayed as weak?

“Don’t be a girl,”

For so long, this has gotten under the skin of kids on the playground. No one wants to be a girl. Because if in that situation, you do come across as weak, uncomfortable, you are now classified as a girl.
"

That is a valid point, still. being used as an insult is degrading, and this doesn't just apply to women. "Oawhhw that's so gay!", "You're such a spaz" etc.

"
Why should we be made to feel uncomfortable when we receive a random compliment on the street? Because nine times out of ten, that compliment wasn’t for us, it was for our image. It wasn’t an uplifting observation, it was an intruding and not well thought out statement...

...No one has a right to tell us how we should and shouldn’t look. The last thing you want to hear when you’re walking through Chermside in your new favourite uggies, is that you’re fat. Is that you’re hair is ugly. That you shoes look like they’re second hand, or maybe tenth hand.

By the way, if there was a stray animal on the street, how many people go and insult it about how it looks or if it walks funny. And if it is, someone is likely to respond and defend it, because society has told us dogs are cute, dogs have feelings, and I’m not one to disagree...

But some woman is maybe minding her own business walking down the footpath, and she is flogged with insults. No one defends her because it’s the norm.

Do we really exist in a world where that’s okay?
"

This argument is perhaps still valid, but the first two paragraphs contradict each other in a way. This is where there are shades of grey. This is where arguments fall apart. Every girl is beautiful and we should love them all, and every guy is a misogynistic rapist that has no soul (or they're Hugh Jackman, but I'm still firm in the belief that he is an angel sent from the heavens).

Now! Back to generalisation! (remember that?)
Let's say ten women walk into a vegan cat-cafe. Statistically, at least one is allergic to cats (sucks to be them, then), at least 6 of them are lactose intolerant, 2 will be Christian, 2 will be Islamic, chances are none will be LGBTQ+, but all of them (probably) will believe in gender equality.

BASED ON THE ABOVE DEFINITION OF FEMINISM, Ten feminists have just walked into the vegan cat cafe and chances are only 1, or less, will want all men dead and believe women should rule the world.

not all feminists are man-haters, and not all anti-feminists are rapist time travellers from the 1700s. Everything is a spectrum these days. Be careful where you place people on that spectrum, because generalisation and stereotyping create a cycle that is very hard to break.

Yes, this was just a whole bunch of opinionated waffling, but I hope it gives a bit of a different perspective...?

Thank you for your very insightful perspective ^.^

 

[Killer Angel]

on a more light-hearted tone…

 

[LizardWizard]

let me guess... episode 1? 2? the best ones

Episode 5 is my favorite. The expanded universe is where my favorite bits of story always lie though.

Despite the complete lack of on screen chemistry that Hayden Christensen had with Natalie Portman I still really like episode 3. I think it is the tragedy of just how close the Republic came to stopping Sidious. Defeat snatched from the Jaws of victory is always a compelling fall, in my opinion.

 

[ravagekitteh]

That is a good thing from my vantage point. Just like the fact that feminism and transgender groups are beginning to butt heads.

Is it alright if I just ask why that is that you think that’s a good thing that the two are butting heads?

 

[Killer Angel]

Is it alright if I just ask why that is that you think that’s a good thing that the two are butting heads?

i do believe that @NIGHTBRINGER especially refers to the social extremists of those groups of people (any radical is obnoxious, potentially dangerous and always short-minded).
Anyone could see from a distance that "fight for women" and "fight for transgender people", in the end would have bited back womens, when people did all they could to include transgender athletes into women sport competitions for political reasons... except those short-minded extremists, which didn't care to think to the consequences of this decision.

 

[ravagekitteh]

Anyone could see from a distance that "fight for women" and "fight for transgender people", in the end would have bited back womens,

Why would a fight for transgender rights harm women? There’s nothing incompatible with the two - if anything, it’s within their interests to work together as they both suffer from many of the same problems. And also, how do you get a transgender “extremist”? The movement doesn’t have an extreme to take.

 

[Killer Angel]

Why would a fight for transgender rights harm women? There’s nothing incompatible with the two

Really?

there
are
a lot
of issues.

other than the four articles linked above, there are also many videos on the subject

and those things have generated some funny entertainment

And also, how do you get a transgender “extremist”? The movement doesn’t have an extreme to take.

Sadly yes, they too have their own extremists

linky link

 

[Aginor]

Really?

there
are
a lot
of issues.

other than the four articles linked above, there are also many videos on the subject

and those things have generated some funny entertainment

Sadly yes, they too have their own extremists

linky link

Pretty much this.
Every group of people has extremists, that want to force their world view on everyone else.

Things like "genders are always purely social constructs" clashes with any form of feminism for example.

And also keep in mind that often being extremist or not is about the means, not about the goals.

 

[LizardWizard]

I think there are arguments to be made that allowing trans women to compete in women's athletic competitions can degrade the competitiveness of the leagues. Thus, it has the potential to defeat the original purpose of having women's sport leagues and competitions.

In order to protect women's athletic leagues I think there are valid reasons to put measures in place for more closely monitored testosterone levels of trans athletes. I also recognize that this is potentially dehumanizing and could reinforce feelings of not being male or female enough. Or reinforce the passing or not passing dichotomy.

It also seems wrong to out right ban transpeople from sports competition. One of the major societal benefits of sports is the creation and promotion of role models. Thus, it seems that denying an entire demographic of people from competition would rob those who similarly identify of representation in sports.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Really?

there
are
a lot
of issues.

other than the four articles linked above, there are also many videos on the subject

and those things have generated some funny entertainment

Sadly yes, they too have their own extremists

linky link

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

context

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

And also, how do you get a transgender “extremist”? The movement doesn’t have an extreme to take.

 

[pendrake]

I am not sure how the payment is in the MI6 or its fictional counterpart, but judging by his lifestyle he is getting paid rather well.

I'd assume that all the double-zero agents are equally paid, and well paid. That's because they are the elite agents. If you aren't among the best of the best you don't become a double-zero agent

Do you pay a 00 agent, mission completion bonuses? or something?

In other words is newly minted 002 paid less (extremely good base pay) than ten missions completed 006?

It occurs to me that a 00 agent that has done ten missions is more valuable than a newly minted one. Simply because he holds more of Her Majesties Darkest Secrets from having been involved in ten of them.

At some point does a Double 0 become too valuable to risk in the field, because they know too much, if they were captured?