roll dice. check for re-roll criteria. re roll dice. add/subtract modifiers. Order of operations *shrug*
well it's "clear" but its extremly counter intuitive. A natural way would be: - roll dice - apply modifiers - apply various rules based on the outcome - resolve the results of the modified dice outcome and whatever additional rules succesfully triggered Now you get: - roll dice - check unmodified based rules like re-rolls - re-roll - apply modifiers - apply rules for modified dice. - resolve the results of the modified dice outcome and whatever additional rules succesfully triggered This way requires more steps and the rules you have to apply are split out over 2 steps in the process. Making it quite odd at times. Also it results in certain abilities being far more powerfull than you'd expect them to be. Like the tzeentch artifiact that gives +2 to saves, but requires you to re-roll succesfull saves. If you re-roll before applying the modifier the drawback is fairly minor. If you re-roll after modifiers the drawback is fairly significant.
It Requires no extra step. It only changes the order in which you preform them. That being said, it apparently confuses or upset enough of the player base that a significant amount of affects that impart re-rolls are now being worded to say re-roll any "-" instead of re-roll failed "-".
Here are a few examples of rules which impact re-rolling either a single dice or both dice on a charge roll. Both of these rules were written shortly after Jervis Johnson created the codified lexicon of rules to impart a systematic rules nomenclature. Found on the Spoilpox Scrivener: "Keep Counting, I’m Watching You: Re-roll dice rolls of 1 when making charge rolls for friendly Plaguebearers units while they are within 7" of this model. In addition, re-roll hit rolls of 1 for friendly Plaguebearers units while they are within 7" of this model." Found on the Sloppity Bilepiper: "Jolly Gutpipes: Re-roll failed charge rolls and hit rolls of 1 for friendly Nurglings and Great Unclean One units while they are within 7" of any Sloppity Bilepipers." It seems GW is aware of the need to clarify the wording, perhaps they have just forgotten that the Scar-Veteran on Coldone still has the older and less specific wording.
I like how they write "dice rolls of 1 when making charge rolls", it makes clear that the charge roll still consists of both dice and that this is an exception from the rule.
It makes it clear that it needs to be written. However, notice how they also separate out failed charge rolls in Jolly Gutpipes. Adding this qualifier could certainly indicate that "charge rolls" is not significantly clear. It could also just have been added to prevent players from fishing for higher charges if their initial charge succeed without having to spend a command point. Either way, both of the rules were written post the era of AoS rules enlightenment. All that being said, I still lean toward the interpretation that you can re-roll both dice for charges with the ScV. I have had a few TO's rule the other way, and I can understand their arguments for it.
The ruling on the Spoilpox Scrivener is clearer to me, for the Bilepiper it does seem like they allow you to re-roll failed charge rolls once(?) Gr, Imrahil
if both rules are written post enlightment than that is the precedent required to say there is no other interpretation. the one rule specifies the dice, the other states the roll. warscroll over ride general rules for the single dice roll and the warscroll for the scv matches the general rules of (charge rolls) which consist of 2d6
Right, but this is better viewed under precedent than syntax. I think the original intent is too vague to know. However, applying current standardized rule interpretations it is very sound to argue both dice on the charge are re-rollable.
Thanks for the discussion, I always assumed that I was rerolling charge rolls of 1. But I'm leaning toward rerolling charge rolls regardless of the result. Did you get an answer when you emailed @Canas?
Regarding what appears to be a consensus that this means re-rolling any failed charge rolls... would this necessarily mean rolling BOTH dice again, or could we opt to re-roll only one?
I recently picked up a start collecting of BCR, and the mawtribes have some interesting abilities. one of which is a charge re-roll ability that specifically lays out that you may re-roll one or both dice. using the vernacular of the time and the logic of the rules when printed (as we are sans FAQ) it makes sense that you would only be able to re roll both dice, as a charge roll is defined as 2d6, and there is no language to specify that one of the die may be rolled individually.
Tossing in my hat, RAW makes me think it is reroll the whole charge, falling back to the charge roll value being the combination of 2d6.