8th Ed. The BEST close combat units in all of Warhammer.

[Killer Angel]

I would also like to suggest running calculations of the last match with Abomination having Warpstone Spikes upgrade, giving it Magic Resistance and magical attacks. Not much, but it can change Massive Victory to Victory, I think. Or at least satisfy our curiosity.

AH, a newcomer joining the debate! good, good...

Magical resistance wouldn't be of much help, the K'daii attacks are not listes as magical.

 

[Wyvernaarch]

Magical resistance wouldn't be of much help, the K'daii attacks are not listes as magical.

Yeah, I mentioned it just because it is part of the upgrade. Might be helpful against Chaos Dwarfs' magic, though.

 

[Lizards of Renown]

AH, a newcomer joining the debate! good, good...

Magical resistance wouldn't be of much help, the K'daii attacks are not listes as magical.

Don't magical attacks mean that you don't have to re-roll successful wounds on the K'Daai?

 

[Lizards of Renown]

Let us being round #6. To start us off, we've got a couple of units from the bottom 8, the Arachnarok Spider versus the Hammerers.

Key rules in play:

• Arachnarok Spider: Natural Armour (4+), Poisoned Attacks (Spider only), Stubborn, Venom Surge
• Hammerers: ASL, Hatred (Orcs & Goblins), Stubborn

View attachment 82203

Let @Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl rejoice... the Dwarfs have picked up a much needed Massive Victory. Not only that, but it was pure domination as they actually wiped out the Spider completely (doing an extra 1.3 wounds for good measure), no break tests required.

The S6 from the Hammerers was golden; allowing them to wound effectively and completely bypass the Spider's armour save. 21 attacks, with hatred and at S6 was simply too much for the struggling Spider.

The Spider goes back to its losing ways, and the Hammerers get a solid boost in the standings!

View attachment 82204


How are we feeling about the Hammerer's triumphant massive victory? Do you think they can start to rise in the rankings or was simply a matter of their opposition in this particular matchup?

I think the Hammerers have at least one more victory to look forwards to: Soul Grinder. I foresee this combat being at least a victory, mainly due to the fact that some of the Dwarves will fall prey to their lack of high initiative.

I think they might eke out a victory against the Mournfang and Demi-gryph knights due to their high strength and 2 attacks, but I think unlikely due to their lack of ability to withstand the incoming attacks at all (both units will be hitting at strength 5 for most of the attacks, nullilfying their armour save).

 

[Lizards of Renown]

I otherwise think the #1 position is definite now. I don't think that any of the remaining units have what it takes to knock the K'Daai destroyer off the top spot.

It will be vicious fight for #2 and #3 though... I'm very curious to see how this pans out.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Ahh, it's always great to see a proper adversary squashed by fine dwarven gromril! Yet I would not raise my hopes in case of Hammerers, competition there is really tough. They still have good match-ups against expensive armored opponents, but I expect them to slightly shift near their current position.

The advantage they have is that they have already gotten their matchups with the K'daai Destroyer and Witch Elves out of the way. Those are tough matchups for most of the field. Of course they still have quite a few tough matchups left, and as you say, quite a few potentially good matchups left too.

I agree with you that I can't see them moving too far from where they currently are. Maybe up bit, but not by much. There are quite a few powerhouse units ahead of them.

I would also like to suggest running calculations of the last match with Abomination having Warpstone Spikes upgrade, giving it Magic Resistance and magical attacks. Not much, but it can change Massive Victory to Victory, I think. Or at least satisfy our curiosity.

That was one of the things we talked about early on in the thread. Should units be able to change their load-out / options between matches or not. For instance the best load-out for the Skullcrushers is to take Ensorcelled Weapons (+1 Strength and magical attacks). However, against the White Lions with the Banner of the World Dragon, the Ensorcelled Weapons upgrade assures that the Skullcrushers will lose badly. The same can be said for the White Lions, their Banner of the World Dragon is great in 3 matchups (single handedly wins them those matches) but is a 50 point of a liability against everyone else. Units like Chaos Warriors could customize quite substantially (both Marks of Chaos and switching between Halberds, GWs, AHW or Sword and Board) to tailor themselves to specific opponents.

In the end, it was collectively decided that each unit would have to settle on one "best" setup, which they were stuck with for each and every matchup in the tournament. In the case of the HPA, the Warpstone Spikes upgrade would give them a slight boost against the K'daai Destroyer, but massively hurt it against the White Lions with their Banner of the World Dragon, and be a 15 point liability against everyone else (as it would be worthless and allow the opposing unit to have an extra model points-wise). As a result, I estimated that the best HPA setup was without the upgrade.

However, to satisfy curiosity, the matchup goes like this:


In the end, it makes only a marginally small difference (an extra 0.6 wounds sustained by the K'daai). The problem is that the HPA only has a single round of attacks to make before the Destroyer kills it, so its impact is minimal.

Magical resistance wouldn't be of much help, the K'daii attacks are not listes as magical.

It wouldn't matter even if the Destroyer did have magical attacks (which of course it doesn't). Magic Resistance only pertains to wounds caused by spells and consequently has zero effect on magical attacks in close combat or shooting.

Don't magical attacks mean that you don't have to re-roll successful wounds on the K'Daai?

Yes that is correct.

The Warpstone Spikes upgrade gives the HPA Magic Resistance (which would be useless against the Destroyer, but as @Wyvernaarch points out, would be useful against CD magic) and magical attacks (which has the very useful effect you described above).

I think the Hammerers have at least one more victory to look forwards to: Soul Grinder. I foresee this combat being at least a victory, mainly due to the fact that some of the Dwarves will fall prey to their lack of high initiative.

I think they might eke out a victory against the Mournfang and Demi-gryph knights due to their high strength and 2 attacks, but I think unlikely due to their lack of ability to withstand the incoming attacks at all (both units will be hitting at strength 5 for most of the attacks, nullilfying their armour save).

The Soul Grinder vs. Hammerers matchup is intriguing. The T7 of the Grinder will help it a lot, but it has such a limited number of attacks (and has to kill the Hammers down to the last man). I look forward to that one. The Soul Grinder did manage to take down the Savage Orcs, so I'm curious if it can do the same with the Hammerers. However, the S6 of the Hammerers gives them a huge advantage in comparison to the Savage Orc vs. Grinder matchup... so I think you will end up being right. It will be fun to see if it ends up being a Victory or a Massive Victory.

I think they have a fair to good chance against the Mournfang and Demigryph Knights. S6 will go a long way in those matchups. Also their superior WS will help them out too.

I otherwise think the #1 position is definite now. I don't think that any of the remaining units have what it takes to knock the K'Daai destroyer off the top spot.

It will be vicious fight for #2 and #3 though... I'm very curious to see how this pans out.

Agreed. The silver and bronze medal positions are going to be very hotly contested. There are quite a few units that have a very legitimate chance of grabbing those positions. They have such a mix of good and bad matchups left that it is hard to predict at a glance.

As for number one... its looking like the Gold Medal is going to the Dawi-Zharr!! (insert celebratory dancing )

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Next matchup... Har Ganeth Executioners vs. Soul Grinder!

Key rules in play:

• Executioners: Murderous Prowess, ASF and ASL cancel each other out
• Soul Grinder: Daemon of Nurgle, Daemonic, Caught in the Iron Claw, Natural Armour (4+)

Massive Win for the Executioners! Their S6 + Murderous Prowess was good enough to thwart the Soul Grinder's T7 and 5+ ward. Ultimately though, the Soul Grinder just doesn't have enough attacks to take on units with lots of wounds. It had to rely on its Thunderstomp to do most of its damage, but in the end it wasn't enough.

With that, the Executioners jump into third place, just behind the Witch Elves. The Soul Grinder now finds itself in a 2 way tie with the Mournfang for second last place.



What do you guys think of the Executioners thus far? They have won 4 of their 6 matches, with 3 of those wins being of the Massive variety! The Dark Elves once again hold the second and third place positions... at least for now.

 

[Lizards of Renown]

Next matchup... Har Ganeth Executioners vs. Soul Grinder!

Key rules in play:

• Executioners: Murderous Prowess, ASF and ASL cancel each other out
• Soul Grinder: Daemon of Nurgle, Daemonic, Caught in the Iron Claw, Natural Armour (4+)

View attachment 82293

Massive Win for the Executioners! Their S6 + Murderous Prowess was good enough to thwart the Soul Grinder's T7 and 5+ ward. Ultimately though, the Soul Grinder just doesn't have enough attacks to take on units with lots of wounds. It had to rely on its Thunderstomp to do most of its damage, but in the end it wasn't enough.

With that, the Executioners jump into third place, just behind the Witch Elves. The Soul Grinder now finds itself in a 2 way tie with the Mournfang for second last place.

View attachment 82294

What do you guys think of the Executioners thus far? They have won 4 of their 6 matches, with 3 of those wins being of the Massive variety! The Dark Elves once again hold the second and third place positions... at least for now.

Well, your last paragraph is exactly why I thought that the Dark Elves needed to be represented in the competition. They have some deadly troops and 2 out of the 3 units are in the top five. 'Nuff said really.

Although I will say that I didn't think they'd do this well. Especially compared to the WoC with MoN who are doing a lot worse than I thought they would... Yes, this is best of the best and none of the units on the list are anything to be trifled with (underestimate them in a real game at your peril... Literally any one of them...) but I still thought they would do better.

The more I think about it, the more I think that part of the reason why I consider them one of, if not THE, deadliest close combat troops is exactly what you say here:

That was one of the things we talked about early on in the thread. Should units be able to change their load-out / options between matches or not. For instance the best load-out for the Skullcrushers is to take Ensorcelled Weapons (+1 Strength and magical attacks). However, against the White Lions with the Banner of the World Dragon, the Ensorcelled Weapons upgrade assures that the Skullcrushers will lose badly. The same can be said for the White Lions, their Banner of the World Dragon is great in 3 matchups (single handedly wins them those matches) but is a 50 point of a liability against everyone else. Units like Chaos Warriors could customize quite substantially (both Marks of Chaos and switching between Halberds, GWs, AHW or Sword and Board) to tailor themselves to specific opponents.

They can be tailored as you need for low toughness enemies (MoK, AHW), for more heavily armoured enemies (Halberd), for lower WS enemies (MoN) and they are flipping CORE troops. Ridiculous. If we're honest with ourselves, it shows that whoever designed the army had a soft spot for WoC.

As I've said previously, the armies of destruction overall have been given better powers and better troops everything considered. If you look over the rankings it's the bad guys who are dominating with the majority of the units from one of their armies.

Ironically, I have a particular distaste for the High Elves... I guess I also have a natural distaste in life for anyone who acts haughty, holier-than-thou or big-headed. That pretty much sums up the High Elves unfortunately. If they were Lord of the Rings Elves I probably would have chosen them as my additional army to collect.

Ah well.

I'll stick with my Lizards, Tomb Kings and Ogre Kingdoms! (Plus Daemons of Khorne... just to show that everyone has a dark side )

 

[Killer Angel]

As I've said previously, the armies of destruction overall have been given better powers and better troops everything considered. If you look over the rankings it's the bad guys who are dominating with the majority of the units from one of their armies.

it tells A LOT that, on 16 units, chaos and destruction rule and only 3 of the "good guys" were included.
and none of those are even remotely in the top spot, with the exception of the elves, that are in the middle... but are doomed fo fall back 'cause the effect of the banner is now gone.
It's kinda depressing.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Well, your last paragraph is exactly why I thought that the Dark Elves needed to be represented in the competition. They have some deadly troops and 2 out of the 3 units are in the top five. 'Nuff said really.

They are definitely worthy of inclusion and have been performing exceptionally well. So far they have proven to be the best infantry units.

They can be tailored as you need for low toughness enemies (MoK, AHW), for more heavily armoured enemies (Halberd), for lower WS enemies (MoN) and they are flipping CORE troops. Ridiculous. If we're honest with ourselves, it shows that whoever designed the army had a soft spot for WoC.

True, but once your list is set, this is non-issue. It is a valuable tool in list building, but several other armies have such variation too (either through unit options or through multiple core selections).

So far I feel this tournament has shown that the Chaos Warriors might not be as OP as people believe them to be. They have a superior stat line, but they are also extremely expensive and their stat line can be beat by special rules (as demonstrated by the Witch Elves). Of course, we'll have to wait and see once the tournament is concluded.

As I've said previously, the armies of destruction overall have been given better powers and better troops everything considered. If you look over the rankings it's the bad guys who are dominating with the majority of the units from one of their armies.

it tells A LOT that, on 16 units, chaos and destruction rule and only 3 of the "good guys" were included.
and none of those are even remotely in the top spot, with the exception of the elves, that are in the middle... but are doomed fo fall back 'cause the effect of the banner is now gone.
It's kinda depressing.

That's interesting. I never really considered just how much better the evil armies are doing in the tournament. You guys are right, they are definitely dominating. Its good to be bad!

In terms of simply representation in the tournament, I don't think it is quite as simple. There are a few units from "good" armies that easily could have replaced their evil counterparts. Ironbreakers or Phoenix Guard or Sword Masters easily could have replaced units like Black Guard or the Savage Orcs. Similarly, I'd bet that a Treeman would actually perform better than the Arachnarok Spider has.

Also, this tournament represents a zoomed in snapshot of the game. Overall I don't think the Forces of Destruction are more powerful. The strongest army in the game is arguably the High Elves. Similarly, Beastmen find themselves in the very bottom tier of power level (with Orcs & Goblins just above them). Good and evil armies are sprinkled in throughout the upper, middle and lower tiers of power level. If army power levels mirrored the standings in this tournament, then we'd have more of a cause of concern, but I do not believe that to be the case.

Secondly, this tournament does not consider synergies at all, and we all know how much that can swing the balance of a battle. Some units work exceptionally better in concert with other units or characters. A 3++ ward save Phoenix Guard becomes pretty hard to shift for instance.

Lastly, even if the Forces of Darkness have an overall slight edge in terms of close combat, they probably equally concede that ground in terms of shooting and possibly even magic. The best artillery faction in the game is easily the Dwarfs. The best non-artillery shooting army in the game is easily the Wood Elves. In terms of magic, High Elves, Tomb Kings, Lizardmen (and admittedly, and oddly, the evil Beastmen) are all among the best of the best if they choose to be. Dwarfs are touted as the best anti-magic army. Also an army can be very effective through a more generalist approach like the Empire. They don't dominate any one phase, but they can effectively compete in all of them.

 

[Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl]

After the Hammerer's dominant win, I was expecting some kind of celebratory post by @Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl .

Just because I don’t reply in a little while it doesn’t mean I’ve been eaten alive by Khemrian scarabs, turned into a Chaos Spawn for my decision to start Beastmen or suffered any other means of painful death. I’ve just had quite limited time at the moment and often posts take a while for me to write.

Anyway, you’ve asked for it, so you’ll get it...



IT’S THE FIRST PROPER DWARF MASSIVE VICTORY BOYS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ahh, it's always great to see a proper adversary squashed by fine dwarven gromril! Yet I would not raise my hopes in case of Hammerers, competition there is really tough. They still have good match-ups against expensive armored opponents, but I expect them to slightly shift near their current position.

I think the Hammerers have at least one more victory to look forwards to: Soul Grinder. I foresee this combat being at least a victory, mainly due to the fact that some of the Dwarves will fall prey to their lack of high initiative.

I think they might eke out a victory against the Mournfang and Demi-gryph knights due to their high strength and 2 attacks, but I think unlikely due to their lack of ability to withstand the incoming attacks at all (both units will be hitting at strength 5 for most of the attacks, nullilfying their armour save).

True, the Hammerers are very unlikely to beat all of the competition, but that’s because they are tailored to beat enemies with few attacks and high Toughness and armour, and are designed to work in tandem with Ironbreakers who I talked about earlier. Ironbreakers according to my mental calculations do very well against Witch Elves and Black Guard with their 3+ armour save and 5+ parry save, but with their meagre Strength of 4 they conversely would fare poorly against everything the Hammerers do well against, such as the Arachnarok. The two units are designed to beat the targets the others can’t, as per Dwarf insight and preparation.

Mournfangs and Demigryphs I have a feeling the Hammerers will beat. Demigryphs because their riders are crap, and Mournfangs because their riders have taken the more defensive option which is no match for the Hammerers’ weapons.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

turned into a Chaos Spawn for my decision to start Beastmen

Oh... that was good!!

IT’S THE FIRST PROPER DWARF MASSIVE VICTORY BOYS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Is that "proper" bit a dig at my beloved Chaos Dwarfs, because we're sitting on 5 Massive Victories over here!

as per Dwarf insight and preparation.

You're on fire. Your response was definitely worth the wait. I love that comment!

Ironbreakers (or MoT sword and board Chaos Warriors) would have been an interesting addition to the tournament as they'd be the most defensive infantry unit in the entire competition. The Witch Elves wouldn't have liked going up against either of them.

Mournfangs and Demigryphs I have a feeling the Hammerers will beat. Demigryphs because their riders are crap, and Mournfangs because their riders have taken the more defensive option which is no match for the Hammerers’ weapons.

I think so too... oh oh... we agree on something!!

 

[Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl]

Is that "proper" bit a dig at my beloved Chaos Dwarfs, because we're sitting on 5 Massive Victories over here!

Ah, but those victories technically weren’t won by the Chaos Dwarfs themselves, just one of their creations. I’d be interested to see how units of actual Chaos Dwarfs would fare against the royal bodyguards of the true Dawi.

I think so too... oh oh... we agree on something!!

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Ah, but those victories technically weren’t won by the Chaos Dwarfs themselves, just one of their creations. I’d be interested to see how units of actual Chaos Dwarfs would fare against the royal bodyguards of the true Dawi.

Hey, don't blame us because we can create daemonic fire monsters while the vanilla Dawi can't (and no, the AoS version does not count)! We can wield magic too!

This reminds me of a very similar conversation I've had... here

 

[Lizards of Renown]

@NIGHTBRINGER !!!!

Do not get swayed from the true purpose of this thread!

NEXT MATCH-UP PLEASE!!!!!

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

@NIGHTBRINGER !!!!

Do not get swayed from the true purpose of this thread!

NEXT MATCH-UP PLEASE!!!!!

I am highly distractible! But you are correct, on with the show...

Mournfang Cavalry vs. Demigryph Knights!


Key rules in play:

• Mournfang Cavalry: Thick-skinned, Ironfists
• Demigryph Knights: Armour Piercing (Demigryph only)

No surprises here. The Demigryph Knights defeated the Skullcrushers in their previous matchup, so the Mournfang were always destined for failure. The Armour Piercing special rule was once again very helpful as was the extra point of armour. The Mournfang's Initiative of 2 really lets them down.

The Massive Win allows the Demigryphs to jump right into the middle of the standings. The Mournfang, unsatisfied by being tied for second last, now hold that distinction uncontested. Only the Spider is worse.



Thoughts on the Demigryphs? On the Mournfang? Both still have some good matchups left and some bad ones.

 

[Lizards of Renown]

Can you post the standings as they are right now, @NIGHTBRINGER ?

As I said, I didn't really see the merit of the Demi-Gryph Knights before but they are definitely proving their inclusion on the list.

I'm very sad about the Mournfangs... I just hope they get at least a couple of other victories... not sure how they will do though considering who they have left.

Will they even defeat the Arachnarok?!? Or will they plunge to last...

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

And with that said... here we go! Savage Orc Big'uns versus Chaos Trolls!

Key rules in play:

• Savage Orcs: Choppas, Frenzy, Warpaint
• Chaos Trolls: Regeneration

And we have a bit of an upset! The lowly ranked Savage Orcs pull off a Massive Victory against the mighty Chaos Trolls!

This was an extremely unlucky situation for the Chaos Trolls. The problem for them is that they can't manage to win the first round of combat, because the Savage Orcs have their Choppas rule active. If somehow the Chaos Trolls were to pass their break test, the subsequent rounds of combat would flip in favour of the Trolls. Once that happened, the Savage Orcs would also lose their frenzy and they would be systematically ground down by the Trolls. I tried running the Chaos Trolls 4 wide, but the result is even slightly worse as they take 8.9 wounds (thus having only 7 models left to attack back) and only manage 8.1 wounds themselves, and they find themselves down by 2 (1 coming from the Savage Orc's standard, just like above). So every round of combat after the first falls in favour of the Trolls, but they can't win the first round, and by tournament rules they break and are declared the losers.

That means the Savage Orcs pick up 2 points in the standings and they find themselves nicely situated among the upper half of the contestants.



How do you guys feel about the Trolls losing by such a narrow (and unfortunate) margin? Can the Savage Orcs stay in the top 8, or is this merely a transitory state due to a bit of good luck on their part?

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Can you post the standings as they are right now, @NIGHTBRINGER ?

I usually like to wait until the end of each round (so each contestant has had the same number of matchups), but here goes...

As I said, I didn't really see the merit of the Demi-Gryph Knights before but they are definitely proving their inclusion on the list.

They are a solid unit. They might not be as flashy as the Skullcrushers, but they do have a fair chance to finish above them (having bested them in their head-to-head matchup). To be fair, I think the Demigryphs have had the tougher schedule up until this point in the competition. Will the Skullcrushers be able to beat them in the final standings?

I'm very sad about the Mournfangs... I just hope they get at least a couple of other victories... not sure how they will do though considering who they have left.

Will they even defeat the Arachnarok?!? Or will they plunge to last...

I think the Mournfang will definitely beat the Arachnarok and they should be able to beat the Witch Elves too. I'd be shocked to find them finishing under the spider when all is said and done.

 

[Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl]

I am highly distractible! But you are correct, on with the show...

Mournfang Cavalry vs. Demigryph Knights!


Key rules in play:

• Mournfang Cavalry: Thick-skinned, Ironfists
• Demigryph Knights: Armour Piercing (Demigryph only)

View attachment 82325

No surprises here. The Demigryph Knights defeated the Skullcrushers in their previous matchup, so the Mournfang were always destined for failure. The Armour Piercing special rule was once again very helpful as was the extra point of armour. The Mournfang's Initiative of 2 really lets them down.

The Massive Win allows the Demigryphs to jump right into the middle of the standings. The Mournfang, unsatisfied by being tied for second last, now hold that distinction uncontested. Only the Spider is worse.

View attachment 82326

Thoughts on the Demigryphs? On the Mournfang? Both still have some good matchups left and some bad ones.

This is one of those instances where Mournfang riders with Great Weapons would have been the better choice, as they don't get any penalty for striking last because they are doing so anyway, they would be wounding the Demigryphs on 2s and they'd reduce their 1+ armour save to a 4+. In the match above according to my calculations that would have caused the units to draw on the first turn, allowing the combat to go on much longer.

They are a solid unit. They might not be as flashy as the Skullcrushers, but they do have a fair chance to finish above them (having bested them in their head-to-head matchup). To be fair, I think the Demigryphs have had the tougher schedule up until this point in the competition. Will the Skullcrushers be able to beat them in the final standings?

One thing to note about Demigryph Knights is that they really suffer from mounts not being able to support, due to their riders being so very much inferior to the riders of other Monstrous Cavalry, so they are often prompted to fight in units that are 1 rank deep to get as many Demigryph attacks in as possible, meaning it'd be pretty easy to double-team them with a couple of units of Great Weapon troops to divide their attacks and overwhelm them with rank bonus. On the other hand if the player did put his Demigryphs into multiple ranks he'd suffer from having far fewer S5 Armour Piercing attacks, meaning a single unit of Great Weapon troops of a suitable size could probably deal with them.