8th Ed. The BEST close combat units in all of Warhammer.

[Lizards of Renown]

Time for another quick matchup. Mournfang Cavalry vs. Arachnarok Spider!!

Key rules in play:

• Arachnarok Spider: Natural Armor (4+), Poisoned Attacks (Spider only), Stubborn, Venom Surge
• Mournfang Cavalry: Thick-skinned, Ironfists

View attachment 91064

It's the Arachnarok Spider... what did you expect? It's same failings seen in previous matches, fails it again. Auto-breaking really hurts the poor beastie, otherwise it would at least be a much closer contest as the Mournfang would lose effectiveness as their model count drops.

The Mournfang started our tournament winning only 1 of their first 6 matches. In their last 4 matches the Mournfang have managed to capture 3 wins, 2 of which were massive ones!

View attachment 91065

The Mournfang now find themselves at -3 points overall, just 1 point out of a joint tie for 9th place! Do you think they can make up ground by tourney's end, or will they fall back down the rankings (or stay where they are)?

The Arachnarok continues its losing ways. It also continues to oppositely mirror the Destroyer (14 points vs. -14 points). Will the Arachnarok finish with a great negative number of points than the Destroyer's positive point tally? (ie. who will have the greater "absolute value" of points)

I don't think the arachnarok stands a chance in any of the remaining battles

I think you are right. The question is, will it take 5 straight Massive Losses? The K'daai is unlikely to get straight Massive Victories in its remaining 5 fights.

First off, HOORAY FOR THE MOURNFANGS!!!! Thundercats HOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!

The Mournfang are starting to show their overall quality, which is pretty decent. If you add in a canny general ensuring that they get their D3 S5 impacts hits for each model (3 if you are sensible) then they become even better.

I was VERY surprised by the Arachnarok Spider, but then I realized that I've never actually seen one played in real life. My friend who plays O&Gs says that even though the model is amazing, he wouldn't play it for the potential poison liability. The Mournfang also takes away it's ability to Thunderstomp by being Monstrous Cavalry so they ensure their massive victory even without the impact hits.

I will say that with M7 they are pretty likely to get into a position where they can pull off their devastating charge. I usually get at least one of these per game and it's pretty nasty.

@NIGHTBRINGER can you post the standings again?

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

First off, HOORAY FOR THE MOURNFANGS!!!! Thundercats HOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!

They have definitely had a bit of a resurgence of late. They do have some tough times ahead of them though, as they still have to face the Destroyer, Skullcrushers and Executioners.

The Mournfang are starting to show their overall quality, which is pretty decent. If you add in a canny general ensuring that they get their D3 S5 impacts hits for each model (3 if you are sensible) then they become even better.

In game they are a fantastic unit, having very capable offense and defense. The impact hits are a huge factor, they alone can turn the tide of a combat.

I was VERY surprised by the Arachnarok Spider, but then I realized that I've never actually seen one played in real life. My friend who plays O&Gs says that even though the model is amazing, he wouldn't play it for the potential poison liability.

In hindsight (though as they say, "hindsight is 20/20"), I would have liked to have seen a Treeman take the place of the Arachnarok in the tournament. A Treeman isn't too flashy, having only S5, but it has a lot of built in reliability...

• T6
• 3+ Scaly Skin
• 6+ Ward
• Stubborn leadership 9 (this alone would give it a huge advantage over the Arachnarok in the tournament)
• WS6
• A special Tree Whack attack which ideal against low initiative opponents and punches right through toughness and armor

@NIGHTBRINGER can you post the standings again?

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Game time. Everyone's "favourites" the White Lions of Chrace vs. the big bad Savage Orc Big'uns:

Key rules in play:

• White Lions: Martial Prowess, Stubborn, ASF and ASL cancel each other out
• Savage Orcs: Choppas, Frenzy, Warpaint

The Savage Orcs are a bit unlucky as they survive with 0.6 too few wounds to claim a Massive Victory. I also tried a narrower frontage for the White Lions to start the match, but just fair worse. Ultimately though, not being able to break the Savage Orcs' Frenzy sealed the doom for the Elves.

The Savage Orcs continue to hang onto the final spot of the top 8, while the White Lions are now in sole possession of second last place...


So who is happy about the White Lions being handed another loss? Can the Savage Orcs finish in the top eight? Two more matches to go to finish out round #10!

 

[Lizards of Renown]

Game time. Everyone's "favourites" the White Lions of Chrace vs. the big bad Savage Orc Big'uns:

White Lions BOOOOO!!!!

I don't know exactly why I dislike the High Elves so much. Yes, as @Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl has mentioned, they are very arrogant which is a large factor but there's something else about them that I dislike. Probably something also on the fact that I dislike people who take OP armies just so that they can win. Sure, I play each game trying to win but I play with my FRIENDS. I'm trying to have a good time and make sure they have a good time as well. I have made a point of avoiding playing with gamey people, no fun to be had there.

The Savage Orcs are a bit unlucky as they survive with 0.6 too few wounds to claim a Massive Victory. I also tried a narrower frontage for the White Lions to start the match, but just fair worse. Ultimately though, not being able to break the Savage Orcs' Frenzy sealed the doom for the Elves.

Quite impressive, but I've always thought that the Savage Orcs are quite a force to be reckoned with. Like the Witch Elves, unless you have a pretty decent armour save (and for the first turn with Choppas they are at S5!!!! so even then it's dangerous) you are going to be properly butchered. Especially, as in this example, if you don't break the Frenzy. With a six model frontage (which isn't even that big) you're getting, what, 3 attacks each with the AHW and Frenzy? So that 24 attacks at S5 for the first turn which is pretty... well... savage.

The Savage Orcs continue to hang onto the final spot of the top 8, while the White Lions are now in sole possession of second last place...

So who is happy about the White Lions being handed another loss? Can the Savage Orcs finish in the top eight? Two more matches to go to finish out round #10!

I'm happy about the White Lions being taken down another step. Obviously doesn't make them any less formidible considering the company they are keeping as each of the units on this list would make you think twice if your opponent plonked it down during the deployment phase.

I think the Savage Orcs will still finish in top 8. They are a pretty dangerous unit.

I'm really enjoying the battle royale here @NIGHTBRINGER !

 

[The Great White Lizard]

'm really enjoying the battle royale here @NIGHTBRINGER !

Definitely! This thread is great. I can't really add much input here as I ave played far to few games of 8th to gain a well rounded opinion, but Treemen are definitely forces to be reckoned with. Thanks for putting in all the hard work @NIGHTBRINGER!

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Quite impressive, but I've always thought that the Savage Orcs are quite a force to be reckoned with. Like the Witch Elves, unless you have a pretty decent armour save (and for the first turn with Choppas they are at S5!!!! so even then it's dangerous) you are going to be properly butchered. Especially, as in this example, if you don't break the Frenzy. With a six model frontage (which isn't even that big) you're getting, what, 3 attacks each with the AHW and Frenzy? So that 24 attacks at S5 for the first turn which is pretty... well... savage.

My friend used to take a brick of 50 of these guys, complete with a bunch of character support as his death star. It would buzz saw most units. It did cower before my much smaller unit of 4+ 3++ stubborn Chaos Chosen-Star however (when such a thing was still possible under the 7th edition army book; Orcs & Goblins already had their 8th edition book, but WoC were still on their 7th at the time). That Chosen-star was sooooo broken!!

I'm really enjoying the battle royale here @NIGHTBRINGER !

Definitely! This thread is great. I can't really add much input here as I ave played far to few games of 8th to gain a well rounded opinion, but Treemen are definitely forces to be reckoned with. Thanks for putting in all the hard work @NIGHTBRINGER!

Glad you guys are enjoying it!! It's good to know that the work put into it is worthwhile!


@The Great White Lizard : As for the Treemen... my wife loves them! She usually fields two! They are a sturdy and reliable monster.

...we'll see how much she likes them when I get my K'daai Destroyer into them (insert evil Chaos cackle). Up until now I've been terrorizing them with my TK Sepulchral Stalkers.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Second to last match of the round. Hell Pit Abomination vs. Chaos Warriors

Key rules in play:

• HPA: Regenerate, Stubborn, Special Close Combat Attacks
• Chaos Warriors: Mark of Nurgle

Another victory for the HPA, but not before the CWs are able to take it down below 50%, denying the HPA a Massive Victory. The HPA's S6 is simply too perfect against the CWs, as it wounds them on 2's and cuts through their 4+ armour save. The HPA also has several attacks that hit automatically, thereby bypassing the CW's impressive WS and MoN -1 to hit. Of course, defensively, regeneration saves the day!



The HPA finds itself tied with the Skullcrushers (who will fight in the final match of the round) for 6th place, and just four points out of 3rd place. A podium finish seems unlikely but it is still within striking range. Thoughts?

 

[Lizards of Renown]

Second to last match of the round. Hell Pit Abomination vs. Chaos Warriors

Key rules in play:

• HPA: Regenerate, Stubborn, Special Close Combat Attacks
• Chaos Warriors: Mark of Nurgle

View attachment 91171

Another victory for the HPA, but not before the CWs are able to take it down below 50%, denying the HPA a Massive Victory. The HPA's S6 is simply too perfect against the CWs, as it wounds them on 2's and cuts through their 4+ armour save. The HPA also has several attacks that hit automatically, thereby bypassing the CW's impressive WS and MoN -1 to hit. Of course, defensively, regeneration saves the day!

View attachment 91172

The HPA finds itself tied with the Skullcrushers (who will fight in the final match of the round) for 6th place, and just four points out of 3rd place. A podium finish seems unlikely but it is still within striking range. Thoughts?

It is a nasty piece of work... (pun intended).

No surprise it's been doing well, but I don't see it beating the Beasts or Witch Elves due to it's monster status.

(which as we know has a disadvantage against larger units when done well.)

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

but I don't see it beating the Beasts or Witch Elves due to it's monster status.

(which as we know has a disadvantage against larger units when done well.)

"due to it's monster status" ... *K'daai Destoryer has entered the room*


Joking aside, I'm in agreement with you. It would be a pretty big upset if the HPA were able to finish on the podium. The Beasts of Nurgle are a lock for second place. The Witch Elves still have a bit of competition to face, but I don't think it will come from the HPA.


Also, the HPA is in a similar situation as the Mournfang. The HPA doesn't get to benefit from its D6 impact hits in the tournament. Additionally, the HPA's "Too Horrible to Die" special rule is also not in effect.

 

[Lizards of Renown]

"due to it's monster status" ... *K'daai Destoryer has entered the room*

A) Monsters normally suffer heavily in a large infantry match-up.

B) I think we have conclusively proven that the K'Daai is an exception to the rule (and ridiculously OP!!!! )

 

[Imrahil]

Glad you guys are enjoying it!! It's good to know that the work put into it

It sure is, my friend, it sure is!

Definitely! This thread is great. I can't really add much input here as I ave played far to few games of 8th to gain a well rounded opinion, but Treemen are definitely forces to be reckoned with. Thanks for putting in all the hard work @NIGHTBRINGER!

I have non experience and I love to chip in, which mostly make non sence

Grrr, Imrahil

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

I have non experience and I love to chip in, which mostly make non sence

Grrr, Imrahil

I think your contributions to this thread have been fantastic. Its the discussions created from the matchups that makes the whole thing worthwhile!

I hope to hear even more from you guys.


@The Great White Lizard : join in on the discussion. It's always more fun when when we have more people participating.

 

[Lizards of Renown]

I think your contributions to this thread have been fantastic. Its the discussions created from the matchups that makes the whole thing worthwhile!

I hope to hear even more from you guys.


@The Great White Lizard : join in on the discussion. It's always more fun when when we have more people participating.

+1

It's always good to have fresh viewpoints as well. On a recent rules discussion, I realized that I had missed a key part of protection for characters of a different troop type in infantry units. Definitely going to use this with my cowboys and in my Necrotect/BSB with my Ushabti.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

@Lizards of Renown @Killer Angel @Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl @Imrahil @The Great White Lizard

We have run into a slight issue... and rather than delay the tourney a couple months like last time , I figured I'd tackle it right away (with your help and feedback!!).

The issue arose in the final matchup of this round between the Skullcrushers vs. Soul Grinder. When setting up the contest the points per side were as follows:

• 1 Soul Grinder 260 points
• 3 Skullcrushers 244 points

Seeing that the Skullcrushers were short on points, I dropped in a musician for them bringing them to 254 points (still 6 points below the Soul Grinder). I typically don't give units in the tourney musicians, because it rarely plays a part, however in this case it changes the result of the matchup. I took look back at the Demigryph Knights and they were not given a musician even though they were just as eligible as the Skullcrushers (meaning they were also at a point disadvantage against the Soul Grinder). While I have not redone their calculations, on a quick glance I think a musician would play a huge factor in their matchup and overturn the result.

So the two options are:

• strip the musician off the Skullcrushers and leave the Demigryph matchup as it is [i.e. neither unit has a musician]
• keep the musician in the Skullcrusher matchup and go back and add in the musician for the Demigryphs as well [i.e. both units have a musician]

What do you think? Which way should we play it?


While we don't "list build" from one matchup to another, the addition of a musician (and possibly even a champion) seems like a fair way to balance the points between opponents when additional models can't be added because they cost too much (unlike an infantry unit where we can simply add another model).

One last thing to consider are the Mournfang, who have yet to face the Soul Grinder. Their options would be:

• 4 Mournfang (no command models) = 280 points
• 3 Mournfang + full command = 240 points

As you can see, balancing them vs. the Soul Grinder's 260 points is a difficult task. Keep them in mind when deciding how to proceed with the Demigryphs and Skullcrushers.

 

[Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl]

See, see, it’s not just my Dwarfs that are problematic

The Demigryphs certainly have room for a musician for +10 points, as that would take them to 252 points, and the Skullcrushers are 254 with their musician, so it’s not as if the addition of a musician in both units will take them above the cost of the Soul Grinder. On the contrary it’s helping even up the points difference between them, which is what we aim to do in our respective tourneys to ensure a fair contest. What’s more, the units would nearly always have a musician when used in a full-scale battle anyway. I think you should add the musician into both units.

The Mournfangs are altogether trickier because both options have the same points difference with the Soul Grinder. I’d suggest doing a match with both options, and if the Mournfangs with both, they should win, if the Soul Grinder wins both (somehow) it should win, while if both units win one match it should be a draw.

 

[Killer Angel]

I agree with @Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl
to balance the points, both Demigryphs and Skullcrushers should have the upgrade against the Soul Grinder, and the mounrfangs should run double match, with +20 and -20 pts.

 

[Lizards of Renown]

@Lizards of Renown @Killer Angel @Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl @Imrahil @The Great White Lizard

We have run into a slight issue... and rather than delay the tourney a couple months like last time , I figured I'd tackle it right away (with your help and feedback!!).

The issue arose in the final matchup of this round between the Skullcrushers vs. Soul Grinder. When setting up the contest the points per side were as follows:

• 1 Soul Grinder 260 points
• 3 Skullcrushers 244 points

Seeing that the Skullcrushers were short on points, I dropped in a musician for them bringing them to 254 points (still 6 points below the Soul Grinder). I typically don't give units in the tourney musicians, because it rarely plays a part, however in this case it changes the result of the matchup. I took look back at the Demigryph Knights and they were not given a musician even though they were just as eligible as the Skullcrushers (meaning they were also at a point disadvantage against the Soul Grinder). While I have not redone their calculations, on a quick glance I think a musician would play a huge factor in their matchup and overturn the result.

So the two options are:

• strip the musician off the Skullcrushers and leave the Demigryph matchup as it is [i.e. neither unit has a musician]
• keep the musician in the Skullcrusher matchup and go back and add in the musician for the Demigryphs as well [i.e. both units have a musician]

What do you think? Which way should we play it?


While we don't "list build" from one matchup to another, the addition of a musician (and possibly even a champion) seems like a fair way to balance the points between opponents when additional models can't be added because they cost too much (unlike an infantry unit where we can simply add another model).

One last thing to consider are the Mournfang, who have yet to face the Soul Grinder. Their options would be:

• 4 Mournfang (no command models) = 280 points
• 3 Mournfang + full command = 240 points

As you can see, balancing them vs. the Soul Grinder's 260 points is a difficult task. Keep them in mind when deciding how to proceed with the Demigryphs and Skullcrushers.

I think for the purposes of the exercise, the points should be made as close as possible. If that means including a musician, or a standard bearer and musician, etc. then fine.

If, as in the case with the Mournfang match-up, it is unable to made as equal as possible, then @Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl's work out seems best. It seems that this would be a rare scenario, but I agree averaging out what happens from both of them determines the overall result. That seems the most well-rounded way of looking at it.

 

[The Great White Lizard]

I think @Lizards of Renown makes a good point. I think we should try to keep points as close to possible as their totals. I also think if a unit is short on points we should give them first a musician, then a standard bearer, and then finally, if the points still don't add up, a champion. Also that we should only do this in situations where adding extra models would be problematic. I also think that we should only add rank and file if adding them does not bring them above the points total of the other unit. For example, if adding a musician would take a unit's point total from 244 to 254 when fighting a 250 point unit, a musician should not be added, even tough it would bring the points total closer to the unit they are fighting.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

@Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl , @Killer Angel , @Lizards of Renown , @The Great White Lizard thank you for the feedback. I shall proceed as advised!

• I'll keep the musician in the Skullcrusher matchup
• I'll go back and rework the Demigryph matchup by adding in a musician for them (which will likely change their match result)
• Mournfang will be run in both configurations and we'll see what we get.

See, see, it’s not just my Dwarfs that are problematic

This is true. I shall cheer against both units in the tournament!

we should give them first a musician, then a standard bearer, and then finally, if the points still don't add up, a champion.

I should note that a standard bearer has been included in all units that can take one since the start of the tournament. Since it often plays a pivotal part in a matchup (unlike a musician who only comes into play when there is a drawn combat... at least in terms of CC) I included it as part of each units' stock setup.

 

[The Great White Lizard]

Oh of course, got it.