8th Ed. The Legendary Warriors of Chaos "Unkillable" Hortennse Lord.

[Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl]

I think so.

So I did a little looking through army books to see if there was a viable counter for the Hortennse Lord or a nullification.

I did this against the following build, which I consider the most dangerous.Chaos Lord or Exalted Hero3+ ward save (Talisman of Preservation + Mark of Tzeentch)ability to re-roll ward saves of '1' (Third Eye of Tzeentch)ability to self heal (Soul Feeder)1+ armour save (a combination of Chaos armour, magic items, mount and/or Scaled Skin)Disc or Daemonic Mount (meaning the flying mount cannot be specifically killed)Nightbringer subsequently said also GW
By army:

Beastmen: If Lord Agrogax has an idea on this, I'd love to know as I don't see they have anything that would worry the Hortennse. Tarpit for sure with a large Ungor unit, but again there is the problem of movement with the Hortennnse on a Disc or Daemonic Mount that can fly and easily avoid tarpits.

Brettonia: They have their cannons that cannot pivot and only fire in one direction which means they are almost useless against the Hortennse.

Since Brettonian spell casters have access to any of the 8 basic Magic Lores, I'll start with the spells here:

Light - Banishment would be a threat to the Hortennse. Given a group of 4 total (caster plus three others) you have a Strength 7, re-roll successful ward saves attack. The obvious con's for this is the WoC player can give this a priority to dispel or use dispell scrolls. It's not going to be subtle, given that the Light Wizards need to be within 12" of each other.

Death - Purple Sun has a chance, but the Hortennse has a good initiative so would be on a 6. Unlikely.

Life - Dwellers Bellow has a chance, but again on a 6.

Metal - Given that this Lore has several attacking spells that turn the 1+ armour save against the Hortennse, this would be the best Magic to field. You also have a chance of getting Final Transmutation which, again on a 6, has a chance of nuking the Hortennse with no saves. This would definitely be the Lore of choice from the basic 8.

Daemons of Chaos: Cannons are the only thing I see that would realistically cause a problem and even then the 3++ rerolls 1's pretty much neuters this.

Possibly the Slaanesh spell with the random movement and ASL abilities as a delaying tactic.

Dark Elves: Malekeith is the best one here. As he has the ability to destroy one of the Hortennse's magic items on any hit that he scores (any hit, roll 4+ and you can destroy one of the magic items). He's a pretty fearsome fighter himself anyways so would be a good investment for the DE player.

Dwarfs: Cannons as above with limited effectiveness.

Lord Agragax gives a good example of a Lord that could tie up the Hortennse but the primary problem is going to be getting him into the combat. Dwarfs are not noted for their speed...

Empire: Cannons as above with limited effectiveness.

Magics as above, priority on the Lore of Metal. Get several casters so you can get off the signature spell several times and force the WoC player to make as many Ward Saves as possible. He only has 3 wounds so you obviously don't need that many to get through for it to work. It's possible.

Van Horstmanns Speculum: Get a cheap character on a flying mount and charge the Hortennse. Swap Strength, Toughness, Initiative and Attacks and keep him tied up for a bit at least. Even if 2 turns it could change the course of the battle, considering how much points have been invested in the Hortennse.

High Elves: As @NIGHTBRINGER already brought up, Arcane Unmaking is going to be the saving grace here. No wound necessary and even if you hit him once with this, you have a chance to neuter the build in one way or another (Crown of Command, making him susceptible to the combat resolution, Talisman of Preservation, giving him a 6+ reroll 1's Ward Save).

The only problem, is I don't see any other threat to the Hortennse that it cannot avoid. Possibly the elite unit with the 4+ ward saves as this would at least tie him up for a while since EVERY model has a 4+ Ward Save. If you stuck a wizard with their Lore Attribute in the unit, suddenly they are ALL 3+ Ward Saves and could keep him there for a while.

Lizardmen: Slann with Metal as above or with High Magic as above. High Magic would be better and you could always switch out a spell for the Searing Doom spell and have both.

As @NIGHTBRINGER points out there is the Blade of Realities, but with the Lizardmen horrific initiative and the fact that the Old Blood would have no Ward Save, this isn't great at all. He could have a 1+ save with a CO, Heavy Armour and Shield. If the Hortennse has the GW then he's ASL so you'd have a chance of killing him. If the Hortennse doesn't have the GW then most likely he's going to be able to attack once before he gets killed.

Spells would be the way to go here.

Ogre Kingdoms: Tarpit could be done by Gnoblars, but still the movement factor is a problem. If you did manage to get them into combat, given a large Gnoblar unit within 12" of the general, they can stay there for a while. The Hortennse still has only 5 attacks and even at 3's to hit you're talking 3-4 wounds per combat and with a +3 for ranks (at least initially), plus standard and musician, you could actually win the combat potentially. With a 40 strong Gnoblar unit means he'll be there for most of the game.

Still Cannons, even the option to do S10 Grapeshot is still pretty good as it's a good chance of getting at least 6 shots, 3 of which should hit on average.

Ultimately, the Ogre Kingdoms don't really have much to counter the Hortennse. You'd have to tempt him to charge the tarpit somehow.

Orcs & Goblins: The only real threat I see here is (somewhat ironically) Giants. From what I can see, the Hortennse does not come under the categroy of Big Things, so the Giant has "Pick up and..." and "Yell and Bawl". The first has 3 options where the model is simply removed as a casualty no saves mentioned, just removed (IIRC it is eaten, squashed and stashed for later). And "Yell and Bawl" means that he loses the combat. Obviously there is a chance something else happens and if the Hortennse doesn't have ASL because of the GW then most likely the Giant will be dead first. By odds, I believe that the Giant could survive long enough to have two chances to eat, squash or stash. I'd go for it. The problem being that the Hortennse could avoid the Giant as the movement is very superior. Overall, still not a good option.

Tarpit could be done by cheap goblins, but still the movement factor is a problem. Give a large Goblin unit Crown of Command, within 12" of the general and they can stay there for a while. The Hortennse still has only 5 attacks and even at 3's to hit you're talking 3-4 wounds per combat which with a 30 or 40 strong Goblin unit means he'll be there for most of the game.

Skaven: Funnily enough, Skaven have a viable option here. Fellblade is S10 and any successful ward saves must be re-rolled. You'd still be hard pressed to catch the Hortennse and you'd have to build in a good Ward Save to keep the Warlord alive long enough to use it. Skitterleap can be used to good effect to get teleported close enough to the Hortennse to get into combat.

Skaven also have the Brass Orb, 8" range, initiative test or destroyed with no saves possible. Still a high chance to survive considering he'd have to roll a 6, but it's an option.

Tomb Kings: There are no great options for TKs. But a couple of ideas.

Tempt Hortennse into combat with a Tomb Guard unit and then buff the s**t out of it (5+ ward save and Killing Blow on 5+ for the troops). Not great as the ward save still in action even if you roll a bunch of 6's to bypass the armour.

Necrosphinx is an idea, but at T8 vs the Hortennse GW S7, he isn't going to last very long. Even buffed with a 5++ the kitty doesn't get any armour save and is being hit on a 3+. The Necrosphinx has less initiative so he's going to get probably one shot at killing the Hortennse and the odds are pretty great that he'll actually make this.

They have access to the Light Council Tactic, they could also use the Casket of Souls which ignores armour but still has to deal with the ward save.

Wood Elves: High Magic or Lore of Metal again here.

The Twilight Twins are actually a viable tarpit option, since you have to kill both of them in the same turn otherwise they both return to full wounds. Could be a viable tarpit since with 5 attacks he could definitely kill one, but not the other as he would need to allocate attacks to each model to do this. He has 5 attacks, so 3 on one and 2 on the other. This is unlikely to kill BOTH of them so the combat would continue. This could work, especially if they are on the Giant Eagle that cannot otherwise be slain as they are then fast enough to catch the Hortennse and tie him up.

Vampire Counts: Unfortunately for Lord Agrogax this is where I have found the really viable Hortennse counter and potential killer. The Vampire Lord can be buffed to Level 4 wizard, take 100 points of vampiric abilities and 100 points of magic items.

I would give him a Hellsteed so he flies and can catch the Hortennse. Then I'd give him the vampiric abilities of +1 wound (now 4), -1 leadership to those in CC with him and the ability where your opponent has to test at -3 ld at the beginning of each combat phase and if failed has to reroll all successful to hit rolls. I'd give him the Obsidian Blade (ignores armour), heavy armour and shield, Talisman of Preservation.

So... each turn the Hortennse has to pass a Leadership 5 test. Most likely fail and have to re-roll all successful to hit rolls. Vampire Lord (with lore attribute) can heal himself every time he casts ANY spell and with 4 wounds he can keep himself whole. He is mounted so is 3+ armour save and 4++ ward save. He can definitely tie up the Hortennse and could probably grind him down to a kill since he only has to get 3 hits past the ward save.

It could work. Obviously if he's also charged by another unit we get problems, etc. etc. but he has the ability to chase down the Hortennse, pin him down almost indefinitely and potentially grind him down to death.

That's what I see.

Thoughts my friends? @NIGHTBRINGER ?

Er, Bretonnia doesn't have Cannons, and Damsels only use Life, Beasts and Heavens. I forget what the Fay Enchantress can use.

As per Skaven in a previous thread, it sounds like you've become ensnared by a Matthias Eliasson book.

 

[Lizards of Renown]

Er, Bretonnia doesn't have Cannons, and Damsels only use Life, Beasts and Heavens. I forget what the Fay Enchantress can use.

As per Skaven in a previous thread, it sounds like you've become ensnared by a Matthias Eliasson book.

Hmmmm... Thought I purged all that... And I did on my rulebooks, but still had the data rocking around in my noggin! Edited Bret's.

 

[Tk'ya'pyk]

Hmm

Well, Bretonnia did have the trebuchet. Getting a direct hit with one is tricky, but possible I suppose?

Dark and High Elves could also just spam repeater bolt throwers and try to nail him as often as possible I suppose?

I still say the best tactic is to just ignore him. It doesn't matter if he's running around when the entire rest of his army is falling apart around him. Kind of like Grimgor against Crom - he fought Crom to a standstill for a moral victory, but while he was doing that, Crom's army routed Grimgor's army, leaving him on the field alone.

The second best tactic I can think of is to tie him up in melee, locking him in place. Chaos Warriors with shields, dwarf Ironbreakers, that sort of thing. Ironically, a Dark Elf army has a simple tactic for this - unit of Bleakswords. Last I checked, they had a 4+ save in melee. Won't last long if the Hortensse has a great weapon, but if he does not, they'll slow him down at least a little.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

I think with my Beasty Boys the best available counters to him would be:

I agree, those look to be generally the best strategies, but even so I think the Beastmen will have a very hard time of it. I'll play the part of the WoC DP player and analyze the strength/weakness of each one...

Great Weapon Minotaurs (Strength 7 attacks would reduce his armour save to a more manageable 5+, he wouldn't be able to heal himself of any wounds in the first round of combat if he didn't lost any prior to the fight and Monstrous Infantry can't be Thunderstomped), but that Leadership test is irritating, I'd have to make sure my unit remains within 12" of a Beastlord General to give them Ld 9 to give them the best chance of passing that

These guys aren't bad. They definitely wouldn't be the first target I'd fly my DP into. There are many more softer targets that I would choose to attack with the DP. As the WoC player, I'd be motivated to get some of my other units into these guys instead. Trolls (with supported leadership) would make pretty short work of them. Skullcrushers would also have a field day with their limited defenses, although they would take some damage in return.

Anyways, assuming all goes wrong and the DP is stuck in with these guys, you're right to keep your general nearby. With only a base leadership of 7, the Allure of Slaanesh gift would cut away a large number of attacking models right off the bat. If I happen to get Phantasmagoria off on them, the reverse cold-blooded leadership tests would go even further in protecting my DP. The one real disadvantage that the beasties have is that they are only WS4, which means that they will be hitting my DP on 5's. That's two thirds of the attacks (which get past the Allure of Slaanesh) that are missed right away.

So, the minotaurs will be hitting on 5's, wounding on 2's and I get a 5+ followed by a 5++. That means that each Minotaur attack has a 12% chance to cause an unsaved wound (not counting the Allure of Slaanesh). With 3 guys in b2b and another 3 making supporting attacks, 18 total attacks nets the minos a very impressive 2.2 wounds. Of course it is unlikely that all of them pass their Allure of Slaanesh leadership test, so if one fails their wound output falls to 1.85 and if you're unlucky and two fail, then they go down to 1.48.

In return, the DP will be hitting on 2's, wounding on 2's and the Minos get no saves. That means that each DP attack has a 69% to cause an unsaved wound. With his 5 attacks the DP averages 3.47 wounds (and another 3.5 wounds on the turn I unleash this breath weapon, assuming I still have it.). The DP then has a fair chance to heal a wound.

It looks to be a winning strategy if everything goes right for the Minotaurs...

• they are able to engage the DP in CC
• they are in range of the general (without this, it's a bit of a longshot)
• the DP does not cast Phantasmagoria on them
• they pass their break test after losing the first round of combat
• the DP is in not in their flank or rear
• the DP does not have backup, especially backup that denies them steadfast
• the minos have sufficient numbers to soak up the casualties the DP causes (as he does hit first)

If those things line up, then they should eventually win the war of attrition. Overall its a matchup that I would work to avoid unless I was desperate or could introduce one or more of the elements I discussed above.

Any unit that I could give Okkam's Mindrazor to (A Ghorgon benefitting the spell would be particularly fun with Strength and Leadership 10, or Additional Hand Weapon Minotaurs being able to bring the same Strength as their Great Weapon buddies along with extra attacks), but this is reliant upon being able to generate and cast the spell in the first place

Mindrazor can always turn the tide of a battle. I actually don't think that the Ghorgon is the ideal target for it. He only has 6 attacks (7 if he still has his Frenzy), and needs 5's to hit, 2's to wound and the DP gets his 5++. That means he averages 1.3 wounds a turn (1.1 if he has already lost Frenzy). The problem is that the DP should kill him in three turns, meaning the Gorghon has to get the job done in two turn (because the DP strikes first and kills him on the third turn).

Assuming he passes his Allure of Slaanesh tests (which he most definitely should with ld 10), there are still three things working against him...

1. The DP should heal a wound over the course of those 3 rounds of combat
2. You are likely going to be the one who takes the charge, so you its likely that you won't have Mindrazor in the first round of combat. And then you have to make sure you are able to get it through in the subsequent friendly turn.
3. He'll likely lose his Frenzy after the first round of combat

I actually think that a large unit of Gor Heard would likely be a better target. They'll collectively put out more attacks but more importantly they can soak up the wounds and stay in the fight (assuming your General is nearby with his leadership). They are also core and might get hatred in the first round of CC.

The Caress of Laniph and The Fate of Bjuna from Lore of Death (both ignore armour saves and providing I roll high enough I could still inflict enough wounds to bypass his Ward and kill him, especially with Bjuna wounding on 2s) but again dependent on generating and casting those spells

The Caress of Laniph is not that much of a threat with average rolls. You get 2d6 hits minus enemy strength. On average that nets you 7-6=1. One hit that will then wound on 4+ and the DP still gets his 5++. That works out to an average of 0.33 wounds per cast.

The Fate of Bjuna will produce better numbers, but will be severely hampered by its short range of just 12". You also need to have the DP in your front arc and of course the DP can't be engaged in CC. That's quite the tight situational setup against a flying enemy. And if all that does line up, and you get the spell off, you'll average 2 hits (2d6 hits - T5). That works out to 1.1 unsaved wounds (2's to wound and the DP has a 5++). Also at that point the wizard is in the DP guaranteed charge range.

The Withering, The Enfeebling Foe and Soulblight would all help in reducing his Strength and Toughness to reduce his combat potential and make him easier to wound, though these won't do anything to reduce his formidable armour save, so I still need a monster and/or Minotaurs to put out enough attacks with armour save penalties to knock enough wounds off him to kill him before he can heal

These are all very solid spells to cast. The right spell into the right combat can really make a big difference. Speaking of which, the Beastmen (if they decide to invest in magic) are the only army that can consistently put out a more dominant magic phase than the TK.

On the other hand, I think the army that would specifically have the worst time against the Daemon Prince is another of my armies, Orcs and Goblins. They can't put out many high-Strength attacks, lack reliable Monsters, Spells and Monstrous Infantry with high Strength and specialise in large hordes of chaff that the Daemon Prince can just wade through. Probably the only thing I can think of that would be in any real way effective is Mangler Squigs, and I'd still need to roll well with the Scatter Dice and the Random Movement dice for them to be able to reach him. The Greenskins would be in real trouble against such a build.

I disagree with this point. As a WoC player I'd much rather have my DP face the Beastmen than the O&G. The O&G can put out a pretty substantial gunline if they wish to. I had a friend that would field 8 Spear Chukkas in a 3000 point game. While each Spear Chukka is pretty unreliable, I sure as hell don't want my DP pin cushioned by eight of them.

The O&G also have trolls, which if leadership babysat, are very problematic as I've never seen a WoC player put flaming attacks on their DP. The trolls with their vomit can auto hit and completely negate the DP's armour. They're also cheap and have regen. I would not want my DP engaged with them. Assuming they have the general's leadership nearby, they are a far worse matchup than the Minotaurs. The DP will lose that war of attrition in very short order.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

After the reading of the infamous thread, i think i would go for the DP.
...but 565 pts are a massive investment.

The chaos sorcerer lord costs A LOT less and is still very dangerous.
So, i think it would depend on the rest of the list.

The Chaos Sorcerer Lord can also be protected in a unit (or "Hortennsed" himself if you don't mind being restricted to the Lore of Metal or the awful Lore of Tzeentch).

The DP works very well with a pair of Chimeras in the list. Mind you that a flying Hortennse likes that setup too.

The infamous WoC flying circus.

I think a big factor as to which is better will come down to the opposing army. Against a gunline, Hortennse is likely to come out on top. But how many armies can field cannons (by which I mean real cannons, not things like Hellcannons or Magma Cannons)?

• Dwarfs
• Empire
• Ogres
• Daemons of Chaos (but these are flaming, so the DP gets a 2++)

Anyone else?

Skaven and O&G can have effective gunlines, and the Dark/High Elves have their bolt throwers.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Thoughts my friends? @NIGHTBRINGER ?

I had to reply to the earlier posts of @Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl and @Killer Angel . It's getting kind of late, so I'll have to get to this tomorrow, because it really deserves a good deal of my time and attention.

 

[Lizards of Renown]

I had to reply to the earlier posts of @Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl and @Killer Angel . It's getting kind of late, so I'll have to get to this tomorrow, because it really deserves a good deal of my time and attention.

 

[Lizards of Renown]

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

I think so.

So I did a little looking through army books to see if there was a viable counter for the Hortennse Lord or a nullification.

I did this against the following build, which I consider the most dangerous.Chaos Lord or Exalted Hero3+ ward save (Talisman of Preservation + Mark of Tzeentch)ability to re-roll ward saves of '1' (Third Eye of Tzeentch)ability to self heal (Soul Feeder)1+ armour save (a combination of Chaos armour, magic items, mount and/or Scaled Skin)Disc or Daemonic Mount (meaning the flying mount cannot be specifically killed)Nightbringer subsequently said also GW
By army:

Beastmen: If Lord Agrogax has an idea on this, I'd love to know as I don't see they have anything that would worry the Hortennse. Tarpit for sure with a large Ungor unit, but again there is the problem of movement with the Hortennnse on a Disc or Daemonic Mount that can fly and easily avoid tarpits.

Brettonia: Nothing I can see (adjusted from before as I had some data still rocking around in my noggin from a Warhammer Projects book).

Daemons of Chaos: Cannons are the only thing I see that would realistically cause a problem and even then the 3++ rerolls 1's pretty much neuters this.

Possibly the Slaanesh spell with the random movement and ASL abilities as a delaying tactic.

Dark Elves: Malekeith is the best one here. As he has the ability to destroy one of the Hortennse's magic items on any hit that he scores (any hit, roll 4+ and you can destroy one of the magic items). He's a pretty fearsome fighter himself anyways so would be a good investment for the DE player.

Dwarfs: Cannons as above with limited effectiveness.

Lord Agragax gives a good example of a Lord that could tie up the Hortennse but the primary problem is going to be getting him into the combat. Dwarfs are not noted for their speed...

Empire: Cannons as above with limited effectiveness.

Light - Banishment would be a threat to the Hortennse. Given a group of 4 total (caster plus three others) you have a Strength 7, re-roll successful ward saves attack. The obvious con's for this is the WoC player can give this a priority to dispel or use dispell scrolls. It's not going to be subtle, given that the Light Wizards need to be within 12" of each other.

Death - Purple Sun has a chance, but the Hortennse has a good initiative so would be on a 6. Unlikely.

Life - Dwellers Bellow has a chance, but again on a 6.

Metal - Given that this Lore has several attacking spells that turn the 1+ armour save against the Hortennse, this would be the best Magic to field. You also have a chance of getting Final Transmutation which, again on a 6, has a chance of nuking the Hortennse with no saves. This would definitely be the Lore of choice from the basic 8.

Magics as above, priority on the Lore of Metal. Get several casters so you can get off the signature spell several times and force the WoC player to make as many Ward Saves as possible. He only has 3 wounds so you obviously don't need that many to get through for it to work. It's possible.

Van Horstmanns Speculum: Get a cheap character on a flying mount and charge the Hortennse. Swap Strength, Toughness, Initiative and Attacks and keep him tied up for a bit at least. Even if 2 turns it could change the course of the battle, considering how much points have been invested in the Hortennse.

High Elves: As @NIGHTBRINGER already brought up, Arcane Unmaking is going to be the saving grace here. No wound necessary and even if you hit him once with this, you have a chance to neuter the build in one way or another (Crown of Command, making him susceptible to the combat resolution, Talisman of Preservation, giving him a 6+ reroll 1's Ward Save).

The only problem, is I don't see any other threat to the Hortennse that it cannot avoid. Possibly the elite unit with the 4+ ward saves as this would at least tie him up for a while since EVERY model has a 4+ Ward Save. If you stuck a wizard with their Lore Attribute in the unit, suddenly they are ALL 3+ Ward Saves and could keep him there for a while.

Lizardmen: Slann with Metal as above or with High Magic as above. High Magic would be better and you could always switch out a spell for the Searing Doom spell and have both.

As @NIGHTBRINGER points out there is the Blade of Realities, but with the Lizardmen horrific initiative and the fact that the Old Blood would have no Ward Save, this isn't great at all. He could have a 1+ save with a CO, Heavy Armour and Shield. If the Hortennse has the GW then he's ASL so you'd have a chance of killing him. If the Hortennse doesn't have the GW then most likely he's going to be able to attack once before he gets killed.

Spells would be the way to go here.

Ogre Kingdoms: Tarpit could be done by Gnoblars, but still the movement factor is a problem. If you did manage to get them into combat, given a large Gnoblar unit within 12" of the general, they can stay there for a while. The Hortennse still has only 5 attacks and even at 3's to hit you're talking 3-4 wounds per combat and with a +3 for ranks (at least initially), plus standard and musician, you could actually win the combat potentially. With a 40 strong Gnoblar unit means he'll be there for most of the game.

Still Cannons, even the option to do S10 Grapeshot is still pretty good as it's a good chance of getting at least 6 shots, 3 of which should hit on average.

Ultimately, the Ogre Kingdoms don't really have much to counter the Hortennse. You'd have to tempt him to charge the tarpit somehow.

Orcs & Goblins: The only real threat I see here is (somewhat ironically) Giants. From what I can see, the Hortennse does not come under the categroy of Big Things, so the Giant has "Pick up and..." and "Yell and Bawl". The first has 3 options where the model is simply removed as a casualty no saves mentioned, just removed (IIRC it is eaten, squashed and stashed for later). And "Yell and Bawl" means that he loses the combat. Obviously there is a chance something else happens and if the Hortennse doesn't have ASL because of the GW then most likely the Giant will be dead first. By odds, I believe that the Giant could survive long enough to have two chances to eat, squash or stash. I'd go for it. The problem being that the Hortennse could avoid the Giant as the movement is very superior. Overall, still not a good option.

Tarpit could be done by cheap goblins, but still the movement factor is a problem. Give a large Goblin unit Crown of Command, within 12" of the general and they can stay there for a while. The Hortennse still has only 5 attacks and even at 3's to hit you're talking 3-4 wounds per combat which with a 30 or 40 strong Goblin unit means he'll be there for most of the game.

Skaven: Funnily enough, Skaven have a viable option here. Fellblade is S10 and any successful ward saves must be re-rolled. You'd still be hard pressed to catch the Hortennse and you'd have to build in a good Ward Save to keep the Warlord alive long enough to use it. Skitterleap can be used to good effect to get teleported close enough to the Hortennse to get into combat.

Skaven also have the Brass Orb, 8" range, initiative test or destroyed with no saves possible. Still a high chance to survive considering he'd have to roll a 6, but it's an option.

Tomb Kings: There are no great options for TKs. But a couple of ideas.

Tempt Hortennse into combat with a Tomb Guard unit and then buff the s**t out of it (5+ ward save and Killing Blow on 5+ for the troops). Not great as the ward save still in action even if you roll a bunch of 6's to bypass the armour.

Necrosphinx is an idea, but at T8 vs the Hortennse GW S7, he isn't going to last very long. Even buffed with a 5++ the kitty doesn't get any armour save and is being hit on a 3+. The Necrosphinx has less initiative so he's going to get probably one shot at killing the Hortennse and the odds are pretty great that he'll actually make this.

They have access to the Light Council Tactic, they could also use the Casket of Souls which ignores armour but still has to deal with the ward save.

Wood Elves: High Magic or Lore of Metal again here.

The Twilight Twins are actually a viable tarpit option, since you have to kill both of them in the same turn otherwise they both return to full wounds. Could be a viable tarpit since with 5 attacks he could definitely kill one, but not the other as he would need to allocate attacks to each model to do this. He has 5 attacks, so 3 on one and 2 on the other. This is unlikely to kill BOTH of them so the combat would continue. This could work, especially if they are on the Giant Eagle that cannot otherwise be slain as they are then fast enough to catch the Hortennse and tie him up.

Vampire Counts: Unfortunately for Lord Agrogax this is where I have found the really viable Hortennse counter and potential killer. The Vampire Lord can be buffed to Level 4 wizard, take 100 points of vampiric abilities and 100 points of magic items.

I would give him a Hellsteed so he flies and can catch the Hortennse. Then I'd give him the vampiric abilities of +1 wound (now 4), -1 leadership to those in CC with him and the ability where your opponent has to test at -3 ld at the beginning of each combat phase and if failed has to reroll all successful to hit rolls. I'd give him the Obsidian Blade (ignores armour), heavy armour and shield, Talisman of Preservation.

So... each turn the Hortennse has to pass a Leadership 5 test. Most likely fail and have to re-roll all successful to hit rolls. Vampire Lord (with lore attribute) can heal himself every time he casts ANY spell and with 4 wounds he can keep himself whole. He is mounted so is 3+ armour save and 4++ ward save. He can definitely tie up the Hortennse and could probably grind him down to a kill since he only has to get 3 hits past the ward save.

It could work. Obviously if he's also charged by another unit we get problems, etc. etc. but he has the ability to chase down the Hortennse, pin him down almost indefinitely and potentially grind him down to death.

That's what I see.

Thoughts my friends? @NIGHTBRINGER ?

Lots of good stuff here @Lizards of Renown ! It was a fun read with lots of useful insights.

Daemons of Chaos: Cannons are the only thing I see that would realistically cause a problem and even then the 3++ rerolls 1's pretty much neuters this.

Possibly the Slaanesh spell with the random movement and ASL abilities as a delaying tactic.

Hey... don't be using my beloved Slaanesh spells against me! Random Movement D6 would really stop Hortennse in his tracks. And the lore has two of those spells in its ranks.

I think you can add Beasts of Nurgle to the mix. They will most definitely bog him down. While they have essentially zero chance of killing him, it will take forever for him to wade through their impressive defense. DoN, 4 wounds a piece and regen for a very attractive points cost... you can't go wrong.

Bloodletters have Killing Blow, so they are another potential counter. Admittedly a hard task to set up that CC, but another counter to consider.

Dark Elves: Malekeith is the best one here. As he has the ability to destroy one of the Hortennse's magic items on any hit that he scores (any hit, roll 4+ and you can destroy one of the magic items). He's a pretty fearsome fighter himself anyways so would be a good investment for the DE player.

A big gamble. You better be sure that Hortennse does not have a magic weapon of some sort.

Ogre Kingdoms: Tarpit could be done by Gnoblars, but still the movement factor is a problem. If you did manage to get them into combat, given a large Gnoblar unit within 12" of the general, they can stay there for a while. The Hortennse still has only 5 attacks and even at 3's to hit you're talking 3-4 wounds per combat and with a +3 for ranks (at least initially), plus standard and musician, you could actually win the combat potentially. With a 40 strong Gnoblar unit means he'll be there for most of the game.

Still Cannons, even the option to do S10 Grapeshot is still pretty good as it's a good chance of getting at least 6 shots, 3 of which should hit on average.

Ultimately, the Ogre Kingdoms don't really have much to counter the Hortennse. You'd have to tempt him to charge the tarpit somehow.

Hortennse is going straight for the Gutstar. Tying up the Gutstar (which poses a huge threat to the Chaos line) is his primary mission. Hortennse is a hard counter to the Ogre's best build.

The Ironblaster is probably the premier cannon in the entire game of Warhammer.

Orcs & Goblins: The only real threat I see here is (somewhat ironically) Giants. From what I can see, the Hortennse does not come under the categroy of Big Things, so the Giant has "Pick up and..." and "Yell and Bawl". The first has 3 options where the model is simply removed as a casualty no saves mentioned, just removed (IIRC it is eaten, squashed and stashed for later). And "Yell and Bawl" means that he loses the combat. Obviously there is a chance something else happens and if the Hortennse doesn't have ASL because of the GW then most likely the Giant will be dead first. By odds, I believe that the Giant could survive long enough to have two chances to eat, squash or stash. I'd go for it. The problem being that the Hortennse could avoid the Giant as the movement is very superior. Overall, still not a good option.

Tarpit could be done by cheap goblins, but still the movement factor is a problem. Give a large Goblin unit Crown of Command, within 12" of the general and they can stay there for a while. The Hortennse still has only 5 attacks and even at 3's to hit you're talking 3-4 wounds per combat which with a 30 or 40 strong Goblin unit means he'll be there for most of the game.

The giant is unreliable, but oddly it has a chance of working out. What an ignominious way for Hortennse to go down. What a gaming moment and story that would be. The unkillable Chaos Lord Hortennse stuffed down the trousers of a giant.

Bogging down Hortennse with a large cheap unit would be an excellent tactic when the battlefield position allows for it. Leadership supported trolls would also do the job.

Wood Elves: High Magic or Lore of Metal again here.

The Twilight Twins are actually a viable tarpit option, since you have to kill both of them in the same turn otherwise they both return to full wounds. Could be a viable tarpit since with 5 attacks he could definitely kill one, but not the other as he would need to allocate attacks to each model to do this. He has 5 attacks, so 3 on one and 2 on the other. This is unlikely to kill BOTH of them so the combat would continue. This could work, especially if they are on the Giant Eagle that cannot otherwise be slain as they are then fast enough to catch the Hortennse and tie him up.

I have to disagree on the point about the Sisters of Twilight. While I agree that he would have to get extremely favourable dice rolls to kill them both in in a single turn, he is virtually assured to win every round of combat. He'll put through 2-3 wounds consistently and they will do nothing in return. They are not stubborn and bring no static combat resolution to the fight. Even at a base leadership of 9, they will break from combat pretty soon and the 275 victory points they concede will largely pay for Hortennse.

Vampire Counts: Unfortunately for Lord Agrogax this is where I have found the really viable Hortennse counter and potential killer. The Vampire Lord can be buffed to Level 4 wizard, take 100 points of vampiric abilities and 100 points of magic items.

I would give him a Hellsteed so he flies and can catch the Hortennse. Then I'd give him the vampiric abilities of +1 wound (now 4), -1 leadership to those in CC with him and the ability where your opponent has to test at -3 ld at the beginning of each combat phase and if failed has to reroll all successful to hit rolls. I'd give him the Obsidian Blade (ignores armour), heavy armour and shield, Talisman of Preservation.

So... each turn the Hortennse has to pass a Leadership 5 test. Most likely fail and have to re-roll all successful to hit rolls. Vampire Lord (with lore attribute) can heal himself every time he casts ANY spell and with 4 wounds he can keep himself whole. He is mounted so is 3+ armour save and 4++ ward save. He can definitely tie up the Hortennse and could probably grind him down to a kill since he only has to get 3 hits past the ward save.

That's an interesting fight. But does the Vampire player want to put their most valuable piece into a head-to-head matchup with Hortennse? The build you describe will cost significantly more than Hortennse and the Vampire lvl 4 general is much more important to his army than Hortennse is to his.

It's a solid build, and the leadership test is definitely problematic. The risky part for the Vampire is if Hortennse manages to slip 2 wounds past in a good round of combat and the Vampire fails to do any wounds himself, because he would then crumble to death. Or in the case of a Hortennse charge, Hortennse would only have to slip one wound past the Vampire Lord (1 wound + charge + 2 crumble = 4 wounds).

It also means that the Vampire counts must abandon their traditional Blender lord in order to build an anti-Hortennse build. That is already a win in favour of the WoC.

It would be fun to see who would come out on top more often. The Vampire lord would be completely reliant on his 4+ ward save to keep him alive (as the 3+ armour save would be nullified by Hortennse's GW S7 attacks). The Nightshroud looks to be a good item to fit into the build to offset this.

The other thing to consider is that while they are tied up in combat, if the WoC player should ever get the chance to bring static combat resolution into the mix, the Vampire Lord is finished.

A risky strategy. I'd have to do a deeper dive to see if I could come up with a Vampire Lord that has a statistical advantage over Hortennse. Is it a good strategy to try to out Hortennse Hortennse? To beat him at his own game?

 

[Lizards of Renown]

Lots of good stuff here @Lizards of Renown ! It was a fun read with lots of useful insights.

Awesome! I'll digest yours.

 

[BrotherSutek]

...A properly built Wood Elf army, playing to the army's strengths, doesn't need to beat Hortensse. It beats the REST of the army and ignores him.

Don't give away my strategy! Amusingly enough one of my last games was against WoC/DoC with my Wood Elves. With my love of the Sethayla style of play I was mostly Glade Riders, Warhawks, Eagles and Waywatchers. I easily outmanuevered them and only their Flamers and magic was a threat. The giant Deathstar was a minor worry and I was able to keep control of their movement. My buddy who was playing forest spirits was mostly mulched, pun intended, as he could beat some units but wasn't able to set up combats as well as he needed. Fun game but if we had to deal with Hortensse it would have been tougher depending on the build and if they were using the flying then we'd have had to feed him cheap units to redirect they fury. Tough to earn those points back if you don't see combat.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

I still say the best tactic is to just ignore him. It doesn't matter if he's running around when the entire rest of his army is falling apart around him.

For many armies, this might be the best (or most viable) tactic. Why dump a large percentage of your resources into killing a 350-400pts character, when the same resources might be able to snag you 800 points elsewhere?

The second best tactic I can think of is to tie him up in melee, locking him in place. Chaos Warriors with shields, dwarf Ironbreakers, that sort of thing. Ironically, a Dark Elf army has a simple tactic for this - unit of Bleakswords. Last I checked, they had a 4+ save in melee. Won't last long if the Hortensse has a great weapon, but if he does not, they'll slow him down at least a little.

Another sound tactic. Obviously harder to pull off than the one mentioned above, but a better option if you can accomplish it. In this case you feed him something much less valuable or something he won't be able to cut through... as opposed to him picking choice targets. Obviously if he is flying around, this is easier said then done.

As for what to feed him, I'd go with either really cheap large units (Skaven slaves, zombies, skeletons, goblins, etc.) or something with extremely formidable defense that is not reliant on armour saves (Beasts of Nurgle, Trolls, etc.).

One of the "weaknesses" of Hortennse is that although he has arguably the best defense in the game, his offense is only good. He isn't going to cut through a unit as efficiently as something like a Vampire Blender Lord or a K'daai Destroyer would.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

View attachment 121130

Couldn't do it without you!

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

View attachment 121130

Couldn't do it without you!

It's a team game. Everyone's contributions are greatly valued!

 

[Imrahil]

As said elsewhere I do read along with this thread

Orcs & Goblins: The only real threat I see here is (somewhat ironically) Giants. From what I can see, the Hortennse does not come under the categroy of Big Things, so the Giant has "Pick up and..." and "Yell and Bawl". The first has 3 options where the model is simply removed as a casualty no saves mentioned, just removed (IIRC it is eaten, squashed and stashed for later). And "Yell and Bawl" means that he loses the combat. Obviously there is a chance something else happens and if the Hortennse doesn't have ASL because of the GW then most likely the Giant will be dead first. By odds, I believe that the Giant could survive long enough to have two chances to eat, squash or stash. I'd go for it. The problem being that the Hortennse could avoid the Giant as the movement is very superior. Overall, still not a good option.

The giant is unreliable, but oddly it has a chance of working out. What an ignominious way for Hortennse to go down. What a gaming moment and story that would be. The unkillable Chaos Lord Hortennse stuffed down the trousers of a giant.

I really like this tactic for its absurdity.

Is there a way of slowing down the Hortennse via magic or something else (available by Orcs & Goblins) so that the catch up and match up might be easier?

Grrr, Imrahil

 

[Lizards of Renown]

Couldn't do it without you!

It's a team game. Everyone's contributions are greatly valued!

Oh absolutely, which is why I invited the rest of the Knights of Eight at the beginning of the thread!

It just hit me that the phrase "happy as a pig in ...." was very appropriate for you on this one!

 

[Lizards of Renown]

@Lizards of Renown @Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl @Killer Angel : thoughts on my query? ...

versus

Okay, so I had a good chew on this last night.

For me, even though the Daemon Prince loadout is pretty awesome. Two is going to trump one.

The unkillable lord is flying around doing this thing and the Chaos Sorcerer Lord is running around doing his. The Sorceror keeps out of combat so that the 5 spells can be used to maximum effectiveness.

The Daemon Prince's magic usage is obviously hampered in combat as it's only down to hexes and augment spells at this point.

I would want to have two large threats that my opponent has to split his attention on, rather than one big one which is then easier to muster resources against.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

As said elsewhere I do read along with this thread

Welcome to the party!

Is there a way of slowing down the Hortennse via magic or something else (available by Orcs & Goblins) so that the catch up and match up might be easier?

The closest thing I saw was the spell Ichy Nuisance which reduces the targets movement and initiative by D6. I'm not sure how this interacts with the fly special rule though. Reducing the target's movement characteristic on its profile would not affect it's Fly special rule. The spell does detail how to handle random movers, but not flyers.

Either way it won't be an easy task, and even it one pulls it off, the likeliest outcome is still the giant dying to Hortennse. But there is always the chance...

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

The Daemon Prince's magic usage is obviously hampered in combat as it's only down to hexes and augment spells at this point.

Actually only Magic Missiles are prohibited from being cast when the casting wizard is in combat. The Lore of Slaanesh only has one such spell, Slicing Shards. Direct damage spells can still be cast at another unengaged target as long as it is within range and in the wizard's front arc. Magical Vortexes (like Plague Wind or Purple Sun) don't actually target anybody, so they can be cast directly through the unit that the wizard is engaged with.

In the case of the Lore of Slaanesh, the 4 best spells of the lore are augments/hexes, and the lore attribute works best when the wizard is locked in combat.

I would want to have two large threats that my opponent has to split his attention on, rather than one big one which is then easier to muster resources against.

That is a good point, although to be fair, the Sorcerer Lord + Hortennse combo does cost nearly 200 points more. For a few extra points you could set up a nasty Exalted Hero or a unit of Skullcrushers with the differential.

Of course, there is no way of getting around the fact that the DP is an "all your eggs in one basket approach". If he falls, it really hurts. It's also obviously much harder to kill the two separate targets, especially when the Sorcerer Lord actively tries to avoid danger and Hortennse is nearly unkillable.

 

[Lizards of Renown]

Hey... don't be using my beloved Slaanesh spells against me! Random Movement D6 would really stop Hortennse in his tracks. And the lore has two of those spells in its ranks.

It's a viable delay tactic for sure as the spells are low points cost so if you're lucky you could keep it up for most of the game.

I think you can add Beasts of Nurgle to the mix. They will most definitely bog him down. While they have essentially zero chance of killing him, it will take forever for him to wade through their impressive defense. DoN, 4 wounds a piece and regen for a very attractive points cost... you can't go wrong.

True. Hadn't thought of those. Obviously they have practically zero chance of doing anything to him and it's gonna be difficult for them to catch him.

Bloodletters have Killing Blow, so they are another potential counter. Admittedly a hard task to set up that CC, but another counter to consider.

I did think about this one. The Killing Blow point for me is a bit moot. I have to roll a six to wound, which is statistically not a great ratio, and then I still have the Ward Save. I don't see the Bloodletters surviving long enough to do anything as they will rapidly lose out on rank bonuses and then the Hortennse will easily do 3 wounds a turn and we start also adding Unstable penalties to it. I guess as a delay tactic?

A big gamble. You better be sure that Hortennse does not have a magic weapon of some sort.

True.

Hortennse is going straight for the Gutstar. Tying up the Gutstar (which poses a huge threat to the Chaos line) is his primary mission. Hortennse is a hard counter to the Ogre's best build. The Ironblaster is probably the premier cannon in the entire game of Warhammer.

Also true, OK general is going to be very worried about this build. Aside from the cannons I don't think there is an option. Their only saving grace is that the majority of their troops are minimum M6. Doesn't help a gutstar though...

The giant is unreliable, but oddly it has a chance of working out. What an ignominious way for Hortennse to go down. What a gaming moment and story that would be. The unkillable Chaos Lord Hortennse stuffed down the trousers of a giant.

I would love to try it. Really, really. Honestly O&Gs are a fantastically random army to play but so many fun units.

Bogging down Hortennse with a large cheap unit would be an excellent tactic when the battlefield position allows for it. Leadership supported trolls would also do the job.

Oh yeah! Good point!

I have to disagree on the point about the Sisters of Twilight. While I agree that he would have to get extremely favourable dice rolls to kill them both in in a single turn, he is virtually assured to win every round of combat. He'll put through 2-3 wounds consistently and they will do nothing in return. They are not stubborn and bring no static combat resolution to the fight. Even at a base leadership of 9, they will break from combat pretty soon and the 275 victory points they concede will largely pay for Hortennse.

I concede this. This is probably the main thing I like about the 8th Edition discussions on the forum, I find my understanding deepens and I see more tactics and aspects of the game that I didn't before.

That's an interesting fight. But does the Vampire player want to put their most valuable piece into a head-to-head matchup with Hortennse? The build you describe will cost significantly more than Hortennse and the Vampire lvl 4 general is much more important to his army than Hortennse is to his.

It's a solid build, and the leadership test is definitely problematic. The risky part for the Vampire is if Hortennse manages to slip 2 wounds past in a good round of combat and the Vampire fails to do any wounds himself, because he would then crumble to death. Or in the case of a Hortennse charge, Hortennse would only have to slip one wound past the Vampire Lord (1 wound + charge + 2 crumble = 4 wounds).

It also means that the Vampire counts must abandon their traditional Blender lord in order to build an anti-Hortennse build. That is already a win in favour of the WoC.

It would be fun to see who would come out on top more often. The Vampire lord would be completely reliant on his 4+ ward save to keep him alive (as the 3+ armour save would be nullified by Hortennse's GW S7 attacks). The Nightshroud looks to be a good item to fit into the build to offset this.

The other thing to consider is that while they are tied up in combat, if the WoC player should ever get the chance to bring static combat resolution into the mix, the Vampire Lord is finished.

A risky strategy. I'd have to do a deeper dive to see if I could come up with a Vampire Lord that has a statistical advantage over Hortennse. Is it a good strategy to try to out Hortennse Hortennse? To beat him at his own game?

All good points. Risky yes.

Actually, you could leave him as a Level 1 wizard and have a separate Necromancer Level 4. You could still wait until the end of the magic phase (when all dispel dice finished) and get off a cheap spell to get a wound back. Or have the Necronmancer be within 12".


I believe this would bring the points value to about the same.

I believe that the tooled up Vampire Lord is the best potential threat to the Hortennse that I've found so far.