8th Ed. The Path to Awesome - Tracking Every Game Ever

[Sleboda]

Re: Game 24 - 2400 vs. Dark Elves (#8 vs Regular Opponent)

you used those three units for a total of 1 game each (unless you're playing a lot more games then you are writing here).

=> Nope. All games are here. I am committed to that.

i dont really understand how you expect to get a promising result from a unit you've used one time. It takes at least a couple games to get a feel for the unit and see what it can really do.

You then use this tiny anecdotal evidence as the be all end all of why these units are garbage and aren't "must bring".

=> Normally I would agree with you, because you are right. It's just that as I look at each of these cases and see that they are doing pretty much exactly what they "should" do (even if a little bit - but not much - below average). It's not hard to project.

Let's take the Slann, for instance. Unless I am going to take him, the Channeling Staff, the perk for more channel dice, and extra priests with dispel stones, I will find myself at the mercy of the winds of magic. I see it time and time again in all armies that you cannot rely on magic and can only get close to consistent good results with truly massive investment.

In other words, putting 400 or so points into a single L4 caster is asking to be disappointed when the winds roll a 5 or 6 and you get maybe one spell off.

Chameleons? Even my foe was shocked that they are not BS5. At BS4 they need 3's. Double for 4's. Range for 5's. Even 6 of these guys will only be landing 4 hits, 2 of which are 6's. That's the predictable result. At T2 and 13 points per model, you're getting one shot off and then they are dead. That one shot _better_ roll above average or you wasted points. That's what happened in my game. Wasted points and easily showing that this was the likely repeated outcome. You don't need 10 games to see that. If they had Javelins, a 4+ ward, and Ld 7 then I would take them sometimes. Sometimes.

Lastly, the Salamanders. You better not get in charge range with him, because elves will wipe them out in a round. That means you are unlikely to land your shots on your target. When you do, the worthwhile targets have a ward or great armor. Low Ld means that even a small mount of shooting back is likely to send them packing. Again - a one-use unit that has you crossing your fingers for a good high-luck shot. I am risk-averse and can't stand playing a game where my plan comes down to "Roll much better than average!"

theres a fantastic reason why most lizardmen armies take those three units. that overwhelming mountain of data should show you that perhaps ... they simply dont fit your play style.

=> This is highly likely. As I stated at the top of this thread, I want dinosaurs. I want lots of bright, pretty, big models. I'm not willing to sacrifice the character of my vision/army and rearrange it sot that I can have magic "dominance" (ha!) or make use of the units everyone else seems to want to built their entire armies around.

if you honestly feel they are that terrible, whats your explanation for their presence in the vast majority of well performing tournament lists?

=> People don't give a hoot about the army and are just looking for ways to tweak the math, treating the models more like tokens than beautiful toy soldiers maybe? Just a thought.

edit: just wanted to say, that i hope you dont find my criticism offensive in anyway.

=> Not even slightly! I really, truly don't mind pushback, especially when it is phrased well and presented in a kind but firm manner. There are plenty of people who use the internet to attack the man instead of his position, and you are certainly not being one of those. Keep it coming!

...with most of them you stuck with it. javelins are a perfect example i think. you started off this thread by adamantly believing blowpipes were superior, but slowly your opinion has changed as you've used javelins in more situations and gotten to see the benefits.

=> Ah, but that fits with what I was saying above. I could see very quickly that blowpipes had very, very few situations where the tradeoffs worked in their favor, while at the same time even the early uses of javelins revealed how much better they were. Over time this quickly formed impression has only been reinforced. So, yes, my initial instinct was wrong, but results showed me that almost immediately.

 

[Putzfrau]

fair enough!

as always, thank you for taking the time to reply.

i'd love to see you actually try out the full on beastmode slann. i think perhaps your experience with the tomb kings may have scarred you (or perhaps you truly do have awful WoM luck).

and while the slann (like any wizard) is reliant on your winds of magic, at the end of the day he's still going to be a better wizard than your opponents. they cast better, survive better, and dispell better then just about any other wizard.

while magic might be one of the more random components of the game, your last game is a perfect example of how effective it can be. granted warlocks may or may not be completely broken but! with a slann you have the ability to effect the game just as they did.

dont get me wrong, your reply makes a lot of sense, but i wonder if its harder for you to rationalize the utility of a slann because you've never truly used one in all its hobby destroying glory. you haven't dispelled your opponents magic phase into oblivion then turned around and taken off BotWD with arcane unforging, while obliterating chaff with soul quench and/or tempest, and swapping out spells to set yourself up for a clutch wyssans or miasma next turn.

the one game you used him in was quite a poor showing of what hes capable of. Nothing involving the magic phase seemed to go your way that game, and that can always be frustrating.

so i'll completely agree that getting him to work involves things going at least a little your way, but honestly the slann seems to be fairly reliable for what he is. and a magic using frog always makes me laugh.

but the beauty of this hobby is that you can do any damn thing you want! honestly, its pretty refreshing to see how a no-slann list does, and as you obviously find magic to be pretty frustrating it makes sense you utilize other options. i love the slann, i love magic, so perhaps i'm letting a little (or a lot) of my personal bias come into play

different strokes as they say

anyways, excited to see the next addition! i really appreciate the time and effort you took to address some of my questions. for whatever reason that seems to be a rarity on the internet, especially when you do it with such a good attitude!

dont you know the internet is for fighting

edit: i did want to add that your battle reports have done a lot to change my opinion that a slann is *required*. for a long time i felt like a slann was really the only answer lizardmen had to a variety of problems, and its been nice to see that that isn't always the case!

 

[Screamer]

I think you should give the salamanders another go. They do need some special attention now that they can't march and shoot, but they sure can wreck havoc when used properly, and with just a tiny bit of luck they obliterate the pesky elves.

Some tips:
1. Don't get charged Especially not by elves. Better to stay back and dictate his movement. The blocks won't (should't) move within 16" of a single salamander. If you flee from a charge you lose at least one shot, but more likely they're gone. Better to wait and get that "perfect" shot! Killed 30 goblins last game with a perfekt flank-shot from 2 sallies And it wasn't even a lucky shot (and no misfire...)

2. 2 singles with extra snack is better, imho, than a unit of 2. If one die the other won't flee, and they can choose different targets. And, of course, they can set up a double-flee move if needed.

3. Don't be afraid to use them in CC, against small S3, A1 skirmishers they usually win. 5-6A S5/S3 isn't to bad.


I don't play much, but every game the sallies perform well.

I agree about the slann and chameleons though. I rather use one old-blood cowboy and one scar-vet cowboy instead of slann (about the same points) and rippers/chief rippers/regular skink skirm as warmachine hunters. Not that chameleins isn't good, but they are too fragile/ pts for my liking. But it's sure fun to roll great and silence 2 cannon first round without them firing a single shot. But it's not very likely, and you invest 260 pts that will be nigh useless if you don-t get first turn...

I really enjoy your reports! Keep it up, please

 

[jgascoine011]

Sorry Sleboda but i have to comment.
I used to read your tomb kings batreps all the time and although i loved them you can be incredibly frustrating sometimes.

1st of though let me congradulate yourself on not doing the boring lizardmen list which everyone does of slaan in temple guard with skink cloud, salamanders etc etc etc.

However you can not write off a single unit with just one bad game.

Lets just talk about the salamanders:
Why did you even have them as 1 single unit? Always run them as 2 units of 1.
As a dark elf player, salamanders scare the crap out of me, but you need to use them right.
Go for the witch elves and try get a part of the flame template on the death hag, if you kill her then and 1+ save character will hold that whole unit up for an entire game.
Have them positioned so that if the witch elf block charges of them he has to over run allowing your other salamnder to run around his back lines.


Then the cold one knights
How on earth did he charge his cold ones into your krox so early?
All you need is 1 skink to block his charge and lizardmen control the re directors phase with the mass of stuff they can shove in units faces.

Okay the black dragon is tough for lizardmen to take on, and that i dont have much of an answer to how to kill it but really you should be controlling the movement phase better and not trying to beat dark elves in a straight up fight as you will lose.

 

[Knight Errant]

Hey Joe - I agree with some of the posters above about salamander usage. For a single sally with extra handler you clock in at a cool 42ss. He's relatively cheap, maneuverable, fairly survivable against BS shooting. Although I've liked the idea of larger units of sallies I can never get both the ideal flank shot so in my experience they have been underutilized, plus they are harder to hide out of charge arc. 2 in one unit are harder to deploy (you need to leave more room with a lot of drops and you want them on the front lines). Unless you're playing grand army rules that means at most you'll be fielding 2 single sallies - which seems to be more tame compared to most "net" popular lists.

You have the tendency to look at a unit's production as a black or white proposition. With Salamanders I think you need to have a different set of expectations. Their effect on the game goes beyond a simple artillery die.

When I'm playing with Salamanders I have goals and expectations in all phases:

- dictate or affect deployment: if you're playing heavy infantry, they're going to be scared of these drops. Even T4 warriors (especially b/c they don't have the shooting to take care of them). Does my opponent drop a horde front and center? OK I'll do a pincer movement with two sallies on the flank and converge. Or maybe you want to dictate where that block goes so you drop a sally early on in a favorable position (knowing they will want to avoid).

- Initial movement on first turn. You're setting up your "best" shots of the game. It might even be your only one(s). Most likely, unless an opponent grossly misplays or has delusions of grandeur, you aren't going to get a favorable shot first turn (damn you nerf to march and shoot!). Play smart. Hide them, shimmy them around, or if you have a specific plan in mind send them out wide or something. [Coincidentally when I was using Tetto at SCGT this was my most common vanguard - an extra 12", plus potential 6" range often left me with a reasonable flank shot in the first turn assuming I didn't leave them charge bait)

- I generally plan for 2 shots per game out of each sally. One of which I plan to be "ideal". This is enough to ruin people's days. If you are expecting more you will often be disappointed. Most players target them early - you should welcome this with your lists as it means less fire at Carno, Trog, Krox, etc. Sometimes you'll lose them early - oh well. sometimes one will survive and earn quadruple points by the end of the game.

- I will hardly ever get them into combat unless I'm sacking one as a speedbump or redirector. If they lose a couple wounds or look to be lost you can send them to redirect or jump on a mangler or something. Also - they can sometimes eat a cannonball although I view this more as an added bonus vs. something to plan on.

- Salamanders are the quintessential Lizardmen "high alert" unit. Every opponent is going to know where they are at all times, and plan their gameplan around handling or avoiding them. Use this to your advantage!

You've commented before about the Synergy in the book - these guys bring and important element.

 

[Sleboda]

Replies -

i think perhaps your experience with the tomb kings may have scarred you (or perhaps you truly do have awful WoM luck).

=> Both! Not that I believe in luck (or ghosts, gods, karma, or other imaginary forces), but sometimes I wonder...

dont get me wrong, your reply makes a lot of sense, but i wonder if its harder for you to rationalize the utility of a slann because you've never truly used one in all its hobby destroying glory.

=> Maybe. Like I've said, I really don't want to just clone my TK army. It's one reason I've avoided Temple Guard, for instance, and also is a factor in my choice to avoid a Big Wizard.

dont you know the internet is for fighting

=> And porn. Never forget that the internet is for porn.

...you can be incredibly frustrating sometimes.

=> Yeah, I know. Sorry about that.

Why did you even have them as 1 single unit? Always run them as 2 units of 1.

=> Yeah, I see that now. I think I was/am just defaulting to 8th mentality - more is better.

...try get a part of the flame template on the death hag, if you kill her then and 1+ save character will hold that whole unit up for an entire game.

=> I put both templates in a spot to hit her. She lived.

Then the cold one knights
How on earth did he charge his cold ones into your krox so early?

=> I backed up. He needed a 10. He got it. :shrug: I wanted him to try it and fail, making it easier for him to charge him instead, but he made the distance.

When I'm playing with Salamanders I have goals and expectations in all phases:

- dictate or affect deployment:

=> I definitely need to get better at that.

- Initial movement on first turn. You're setting up your "best" shots of the game. It might even be your only one(s). Most likely, unless an opponent grossly misplays or has delusions of grandeur, you aren't going to get a favorable shot first turn (damn you nerf to march and shoot!). Play smart. Hide them, shimmy them around, or if you have a specific plan in mind send them out wide or something.

=> I know it's hard to tell in these reports, but that's easier said than done with the shooting and spells he has. I get your point though.

- Salamanders are the quintessential Lizardmen "high alert" unit. Every opponent is going to know where they are at all times, and plan their gameplan around handling or avoiding them. Use this to your advantage!

=> Hmm...sort of like Troy Polamalu. I like that!

Thanks guys!

 

[Sleboda]

Games 25 - 2400 vs High Elves

Date: January 26, 2014
Opponent: High Elves
Point Value: 2400
Scenario: Watchtower

Overview
Ok, ok...people said I should try the Salamanders again. Fine. My opponent generally brings two large blocks of infantry in his force, so maybe they will be able to get a few sweet shots off this game.

I took the advice of folks here and used the Salamanders as two unit of one. The three of us at the house yesterday talked about it and none of us could see any kind of good reason to ever put them into one unit if you are going to field a total of two of them. So, thank you fellow forum-ites.

When we rolled up Watchtower, I had a choice to make. I could play the scenario balls to the wall right from the get-go and try to get my Saurus into the tower. I could, instead, try to use this game as a way to get more familiar with my troops and how Salamanders can affect the game. I decided to go for the latter and, if things went well, try to take the Tower late in the game.


My list (identical to the last Salamander list other than splitting the two Salamanders into two units) :
1 Oldblood - Glittering Scales, Sword of Strife and Dawnstone - on Coldone
1 Scar-vet BSB - Carnosaur (Loping) - Armor of Destiny, Great Weapon, Shield
1 L2 Beast Skink - Power Stone (Wildform, Curse)

12 Skink Skirmishers with Javelins and Shields
10 Skink Skirmishers with Javelins and Shields
10 Skink Skirmishers with Javelins and Shields
10 Skink Skirmishers with Javelins and Shields

28 Saurus - Full Command

8 Kroxigore
1 Bastiladon - Solar Engine

1 Ancient Stegadon - Engine of the Gods
1 Salamander
1 Salamander

His army (sort of) :
L4 High Mage on Eagle (Walk Between Worlds, Soul Quench, Fiery Convocation, Arcane of Unforging)
BSB
General of some sort with stuff

5 Reavers
5 Reavers
30 Seaguard
24 Phoenix Guard

Lion Chariot
Sky Chariot
Sky Chariot

Bolt Thrower
Bolt Thrower
Eagle

Terrain was typical. Tower in the middle, wall on the right-center, a hill in each zone and a forest in each zone in opposite corners (both woods turned out to be Wildwoods).

His deployment from my left to right: Sky Chariot, Reavers, Eagle, Lion Chariot, Phoenix Guard+BSB+General+Wizard, both bolt throwers on a hill behind the PG, Sea Guard, Sky Chariot, Reavers

Mine: Skinks, Salamander, Skinks, Bastiladon, Kroxigor, BSBCarno behind Krox, Stegadon, Saurus+General, Skinks+Wizard, Skinks, Salamander

He controlled the Tower but could not occupy it. I went first.

Summary of Events


Turn 1
The Salamanders began their encircling attempt and went up the sides, supported by Skinks. My center advanced.
Magic and shooting had no effect.

In his turn he advanced and then shot (magic did nothing), putting two wounds on each salamander.

Turn 2
I positioned my skinks and monsters to allow me to take at least 22 shots each at two chariots. Other stuff just found good places to be.

My magic did nothing again.

22 shots at one Sky Chariot did...one wound. 23 shots at the Lion Chariot did no wounds at all. The Stegadon's 5 shots did no wounds to his eagle-wizard. All told, in 50 shots I got 1 poison hit (average would be just over 8 hits).

This round of shooting was the moment of the game, for sure, since this meant his chariots would be free to be all sorts of evil.

One Salamander had range to the unit of Reavers on my right, launched its flame, hit three of them and killed two. The remaining three fled, one of their number tripping over a log in the woods and wrecking.
The other Salamander opened up its mouth...and ate all three of its handlers.


In his turn, the PG took the Tower. The wounded chariot charged the skinks that had the priest in them. My 12 shots of Stand and Shoot did no wounds (no poison, a few hits that failed to wound). The other Sky Chariot, the Lion Chariot, and an Eagle charged my other Salamander. I held vs. the Sky Chariot and Eagle, then fled from the Lion Chariot. Sadly, the Sky Chariot rolled far enough to still hit my Salamander and killed the beast.

Magic put Fiery Convocation on the Saurus with Total Power, killing a couple.

Shooting killed my Bastiladon (bolt throwers).

In combat, I lost 7 skinks but passed my break check on snake-eyes. I really hate the Insane Courage rule - just another way to punish superior play.


Turn 3
The Saurus charged the flank of the Sky Chariot that had just fought the skinks. The Krox charged the Tower.

The skinks on the left got close to the Lion Chariot and Eagle. The skinks on the right headed toward the Sea Guard/Bolt Throwers.

In magic I got Wildform up on the Saurus unit and then lost a few more Saurus to the Convocation.

Shooting saw another round of 30+ shots with no poison and no wounds.

The krox took 5 wounds from the PG and did 4 back. No PFs at all.
The Oldblood, with his 7 Attacks, got 5 hits and then 1 more from PF. This killed the Sky Chariot and so the unit spun around to head back into the elf lines.

In his turn I got shot a bunch and took three wounds on the Stegadon. His Reavers (that had rallied) got up close to the Salamander. His Sea Guard killed a skink unit.


Turn 4
The Krox failed to dislodge the PG again. The BSB advanced to get ready to help the Stegadon, which charged the flank of the Sea Guard this turn. The skinks on the left shot and killed the Eagle and the Lion Chariot. Magic did nothing. The Stegadon killed some Sea Guard, but the had ranks and held.

In his turn the Sky Chariot hit the flank of the Krox and killed enough of them that they ran and died (I did no damage to him before fleeing).

At the end of this turn the Convocation was still up but even after all these chances, it had only killed 13 models.

We rolled and the game continued.


Turn 5
The BSBCarno charged the Sea Guard in the same flank that the Stegadon was fighting. The Stegadon got killed and the BSBCarno killed all of about 5 Sea Guard. The Salamander finished off the last two Reavers on the right.

His turn was nothing special. More dead Sea Guard.

The game went on.


Turn 6
Skinks shot and killed his Reavers, Wizard, and last chariot. The Carno killed the Sea Guard. My Saurus charged and killed a bolt thrower, overrunning into the other one.

In his turn, the other bolt thrower died.

He only had the PG unit left on the table, but it was in the Tower and the game ended.


Result: Tower victory for the Elves. Moral victory to the Lizardmen.



Post-game Thoughts and Unit Evaluations
I really do enjoy Watchtower. I like how it changes the tactics and lets you throw units around with reckless abandon. Like I said, I pretty much decided to concede the Tower to him and only go for the win at the end if the early stages went well. When the shooting phase failed me so massively early on, that pretty much sealed the game for him. Oh well. Still a fun game.


Skink Skirmishers with Javelins and Shields
The made a late comeback, mopping up the table at the end, but their early failure was a big deal. I really love how these units move around and create problems for the enemy. Javelins (say it with me now) are better than pipes. You get one round of shooting when you move them, and then another round when the enemy charges you. If he doesn't charge you, keep shooting until he does. Nice units.


Saurus Warriors
I took enough to not worry about Fiery Convocation, and with T4 (T5 with Wildform for two phases), armor, and the Ancient nearby, they were pretty solid. The Oldblood in there is sweet and really turn the unit into a solid hitter.


Bastiladon
Poor guy! Bolt Throwers are bad news.


Ancient Stegadon
I was disappointed by his contribution to combat, but his ward thingie saved some guys. The +1 on Beasts never mattered (I failed a Curse on 4 dice even with it at one point). I dunno. I really am no sure he's worth the points.


Kroxigor
Hmm. Another game where they could not hit enough to stick around. What a shame. They should be beating face. I need to figure out how to buff them so that they live long enough to kill. Maybe I need to get that horde together.


Saurus BSB on Carnosaur
Ld boost at 18" came in handy a few times. His late charge helped. He was once again a solid contributor.


Skink Priest
L2 and two bound spells in the army is plenty. You don't feel hosed by a bad Winds of Magic roll (and I got a 4, a 3, and a 2 this game). I still didn't get to use the Power Stone though. His Wildform saved some Saurus from Convocation and let the Oldblood dish out the hurt.


Salamanders
They did a little better this time, but not well enough to justify their inclusion in the future. If I drop these two guys and the Power Stone, I can add my Troglodon back in. I have to remember what I said at the top of this whole thread - my reason for playing Lizards is big colorful monsters with the wins coming as I get better. Trying to get Salamanders to work is counter to this and frustrating as hell.


So, next time it's more monsters for me!


Thanks for reading!

 

[Man0waR]

Glad to read more reports from yours.

You should not exclude salamanders, just get experience with them. Some advices:

- Always extra snack
- If you run them in pairs, they share the handlers pool, so until there's none, they are still under your control. Then you only have to pay one extra handler instead of two.
- The more Handler you pay, the more extra "Ward saves" on 5+ you get. (I usually buy 1)
- 2 attacks of S5 + 1 stomp of S5 if available + 3/4 attacks S3 is not a menace. But 4 attacks S5 +2 Stomps S5 + 6/7 attacks S3 is a pain in the ass. So they can help in tied combats. Also chaff will not be able to break them as easy as a lone Sallie.
- The ideal shot of the salamander is the template crossing the whole unit from the flank, but not always is doable, another good shot is diagonal which is easier to achieve and let your Sallie be with your main line or at least in LD bubbles from General and BSB. Since maybe they have to flee and reform and make many panick checks.

But if you mind to rescue the troglodon you should run with more cowboys to get full benefit from its roar.
Keep in mind the carnosaur or the stegadon is the same point cost of 2 cowboys with GW and 1+ AS.
To get full advantage of Troglodon's roar the more elite attacks you can achieve, the more benefit.

 

[Sleboda]

Game 26 - 2400 vs Dark Elves (#9 vs. Regular Guy)

Date: January 29, 2014
Opponent: Dark Elves (the regular opponent)
Point Value: 2400
Scenario: Battleline

Overview
So, I'm thinking people may have missed the memo, but it would seem that every model in our army has had its strength and toughness reduced by 1.

Javelins are now S2.
Saurus are S3 T3.
Our already too-easy-to-kill Carnosaur is now only as Tough as an orc.


Makes it pretty hard to do anything when you pay the points for your army as if they are what the book says but you have to take 1 point off of Strength and Toughness for the whole game.


Oh, also, when a unit champion puts three wounds on your carnosaur and you lose the combat, run, and die...maybe it's time for a vacation from Warhammer.

 

[n810]

.... wAIT ....

... wHAT ???

Is that a dark elf army book thing ?

 

[Sleboda]

Yes.

For most armies, if you want to try to get Boosted Soulblight and be able to plan on it, you need to invest in at least 4 levels of magic. But you know what, let's just say you are feeling lucky and opt for just one L2 Death wizard. Fine.

You pay for your L2 guy, which is usually in the area of 100-125 points. Let's call it 125. That gets you a naked T3 2W M5 model.

That model needs to try to get Soulblight. Then he needs to cast it and has the risk of killing himself and those around him, especially the Boosted version. He also may lose the spell and/or drain power dice. That's the risk of trying to spend 125 points to maybe get the spell off.


Now you have Warlocks.

For 125 points, you get 5 models. M9, fast cav (flee and rally and move!), 6+ armor built in, 4+ ward built in. 2 S4 Attacks each + 1 S3 Attack each. Riders re-roll to hit and many to-wound rolls.

But put aside ALL the combat stats. Just focus on the magic.

This 5-wound "caster" comes with Doombolt and Soulblight. He can go for boosted all day.

He tosses 6 dice at it because not only is there no miscast table with the chance to do all that nasty stuff, but should he miscast he only suffers D3 wounds, but gets his 4+ ward save (something our 125 L2 would have to spend 50 points to get).

So, you have a "caster" with 5 wounds that automatically gets the spell he wants, whose biggest risk from a miscast is an average of a single wound, and can get into the heart of the enemy lines with little risk and cast his boosted spell so that a 48 inch stretch of your army is -1S and -1T...every single turn.

My opponent no longer brings a wizard. Why should he? He can get guaranteed awesomeness with almost no risk and a "caster" with 2.5 times as many wounds, an armor save, a built-in 4+ ward save, 18 inches of movement, good combat stats, and more for the same price as his foot-bound sorceress.



Yes, when I play against Dark Elves, my army will always be -1S and -1T across the board. There's really no point.

 

[hdctambien]

Yes, when I play against Dark Elves, my army will always be -1S and -1T across the board. There's really no point.

The key word here is that when *you* play Dark Elves... there's really no point.

There's only a 26% chance of IF when rolling 6 dice. So, the spell is only going to go off IF in 1 or 2 of the 6 turns of the game.

The first turn doesn't really matter too much. If you go first then the spell won't be in play, and if you go second then the -1 T hurts a little, but the -1S probably isn't going to affect you.

One turn you can scroll it. Another turn you can Cube of Darkness is.

That leaves you with 1 or 2 turns that you have to roll to dispel, but a Lv4 Slann should be +1 or +2 to dispel against the Warlocks. If you are taking the Channel Staff and Harmonic then you may even have a dice advantage over them. And if you take Becalming there really isn't a reason you shouldn't be able to dispel the spell almost every time.

So in a game of 6 turns, an army that has some magic defense would only have to suffer -1S -1T for one or two turns, maybe.

An army lead by an Old Blood that leaves its dispel scrolls at home is going to have some issues though... (unless the Winds of Magic are not blowing in the Dark Elves' favor)

As an added bonus, I've started using Light magic with my Slann again because f**k Elf rerolls, I'll take WS10 I10 and then Ice Shard their pointy ears until they can't hit either side of a barn! And they better hope they get Soulblight off, because otherwise my Wyssan'd Temple Guard are going to be S6 T5!

Sometimes you gotta fight fire with fire.

 

[Sleboda]

Anecdotal as it may be, none of that would have mattered last night.

Total Power. Key turn. Game over.

 

[Kimiko]

Faced 1 week ago a DE army with 2x5 warlocks and a lvl 4 mage with death. Shutted down his magic phase with slann, stegadon dealed with 1 unit, the one with mage was toaded, 3 rippers got into rear, 1 died before hitting but CR was enough to send them running......... and got caught.
Fiery convocation on Witches - finished by Saurus, another in Execs, Saurus died to them but reduced them to less than 10 models, combined shooting especially SALAMANDERS sent them to the outer space.
Easy as pie.

 

[hdctambien]

I do agree that Warlocks are an uber powerful unit.

My Dark Elf opponent takes 16 of them and puts his General, Lv4 Wizard, and BSB in the unit. His items give them MR and Terror, and if I target something near them with any magic then I miscast on double 1's (it seems these days the Lizardmen are the only army that can't make their opponent miscast)

That's basically his entire army. He also has 3 Repeater Bolt throwers, 2 units of under prices great weapon wielding, scouting, skirmished, armor piercing, 24" double shooting BS 1million Shades. And 7 units of Vanguarding, Fast Cav Dark Riders.

That's a tough list. You have to get into the Warlocks with lots of infantry and grind them out. You have to overwhelm them with attacks (Scavenpelt Banner?) and ranks (infantry!)

Anyone want to run the numbers on how well a horde of poison skink cohorts would to against 6 Doomfire Warlocks? Soul Blight won't particularly affect a S3 T2 model, and 30 poisoned attacks coming back might not be a laughing matter (I think that amounts to 2 unsaved/unwarded wounds dished out) so depending on how many casualties they take they would pop the unit in 3 combats for 210 points + extra skinks to soak up 3 rounds of damage (10 or 20?) and maybe a Standard and Musician for kicks.... and who would expect a Skink Chief BSB with the Scavenpelt banner? (Probably want a nearby General or Kroxigor for the Ld checks though)

It's more expensive than a unit of Warlocks, but you need to take core anyways... and if you're worried about Soul Blight then why not run some units that aren't terribly affected by it!

 

[Sleboda]

How is any DE player going to let you get an infantry unit into a 5-man Warlock unit? They move 18" and are Fast Cav. You won't catch them unless he wants to be caught.

 

[hdctambien]

How is any DE player going to let you get an infantry unit into a 5-man Warlock unit? They move 18" and are Fast Cav. You won't catch them unless he wants to be caught.

An equal (but opposite statement) could be "How is any Lizardmen player going to let you get any spells off if you only bring a Lv 2 wizard?"

The list I've been playing against wouldn't have much choice.. given enough infantry blocks. All he has is a line of Dark Riders and his block of Warlocks. I can throw 4 or 5 units of 50 poison skinks with musician for 1800 points and march that battle line right up the board until he has nowhere to run. That also leaves 700 more points for whatever (Slann? Priests? Carno? Cowboys? Steg? Bastiladon? Choose your poison) ... I don't have 250 skinks though..

Against a more balanced Dark Elf list that only runs 1 or 2 smaller Warlock units I'd think that 2 units of 5 or 6 Rippers would work well. Even fast cav should have trouble getting out of the away of 2 units of fliers. They won't work out in every game, but they should work out some of the time.

 

[Sleboda]

Total Power, even just once, solves all his issues.




Hmmm, math vs Rippers-

4 Rippers (160 points) vs. 5 Warlocks (125 points)

Let's start with Rippers getting the charge and having the toad on the Warlocks.

Rippers roll 2 extra attacks.

Warlocks go first.

10 S4 Attacks = 6 hits + 2 hits. 8 hits.
8 Hits = 5 wounds + 1 wound = 6 wounds.
6 Wounds = 2 saves = 4 wounds.

Horses and Skinks are simultaneous.

Horses have 5 Attacks.
5 Attacks = 2 Hits.
2 Hits = 1 Wound.
Saved.

Skinks have 2 Attacks.
2 Attacks = 1 Hit.
1 Hit = 1 Wound.
Saved.

2 Rippers left = 10 Attacks.
10 Attacks = 5 hits +2 hits = 7 Hits.
7 hits = 4 wounds.
4 Wounds = 2 saves = 2 Wounds.


Rippers charged and have a 3 CCR.
Warlocks have a 4 CCR, cast their Soublight and wipe out the Rippers next turn.

 

[hdctambien]

Or you can charge them in the flank and...

1 Warlock on the flank gets 2 S4 attacks = 1.333 hits + 0.44 rerolls = 1.77 hits => 1.18 wounds + .2 from martial prowess = 1.38 wounds. After save that is 0.92 wounds.

4 Skinks make 2 hits, wounding on 0.66 of them and after saves and wards that leaves 0.27 wounds (lets call that 0)

1 horse deals about .125 wounds. I'll call that 0, too.

4 rippers have 8 attacks + 2.5 extra (with toad) = 10.5 attacks. Those do 5.25 hits + 2.625 from rerolls = 7.875 hits which lead to 3.93 wounds and after ward saves the Warlocks take 1.9 wounds

Ripper CR (with charge) 3.9 (Charge + Flank + 1.9 wounds)
Warlock CR: 0.92

And since they are now less than 5 models, they are not steadfast anymore so they'll be testing on generals modified Ld 7 (or Ld5 if out of Inspiring Presence)

Next turn if they don't get double-sixes on Soulblight then I will dispel it, otherwise they may kill a significant portion of the 3 models that remain in the unit with their miscast.

Either way, they are now 3 Warlocks vs 4 rippers and have to pass a modified Ld test in order to get more than 1 model to attack back (if they didn't flee in the first place)

Also, my second unit of rippers that was helping the first unit to corner the Warlocks into getting charged is probably giving me a support charge next turn.

Of course, this math is just averages. If you roll 1's and your opponent rolls 6's then the Rippers will lose the battle. Also, if you roll three 1's for your charge, you won't even get into combat. And if your opponent rolls 3,3 every magic phase then you're going to have a hard time dispelling his one 6-diced spell.

And of course a 25 point magic item can save you from a critical moment spell 74% of the time.

But maybe your opponent fails to cast the spell (as someone once said (and I paraphrase) "Never never never NEVER NEVER ever rely on magic for your battle plan") or maybe he rolls 3 wounds on his miscast and doesn't save any of them (pop goes the unit)! Or maybe he rolls all 1's and 2's when attacking and you roll all 5's and 6's! That's why we play the game, because sometimes the ball goes wide right!

 

[Sleboda]

I'm willing to concede that the DE player is foolish enough to allow the charge at all, but not that he'll allow himself to be flanked.

But maybe your opponent fails to cast the spell (as someone once said (and I paraphrase) "Never never never NEVER NEVER ever rely on magic for your battle plan") or maybe he rolls 3 wounds on his miscast and doesn't save any of them (pop goes the unit)! Or maybe he rolls all 1's and 2's when attacking and you roll all 5's and 6's! That's why we play the game, because sometimes the ball goes wide right!

=> Hey...that sounds familiar...

My main point (one of them) about the Warlock situation is precisely that it totally sidesteps so many of the reasons magic is never a good plan. Soulblight on its own is reasonble, but takes so darn many things to make happen at the boosted level that it is indeed foolish to plan on it. With Warlocks, that's not so.

Warlocks give you all the benefits of bound spells (not randomly selected, miscasts are mostly meaningless) but none of the problems (can't add caster level, can't go for boosted).

Frankly, Warlocks are how magic should be for everyone.