8th Ed. The Path to Awesome - Tracking Every Game Ever

[Sleboda]

Game 27 - 2400 vs Dwarfs

Date: February 22, 2014
Opponent: Dwarfs (new book)
Point Value: 2400
Scenario: Watchtower

Overview
My self-imposed break from Warhammer came to an end yesterday when a friend asked me to play so he could try out the new dwarf book. I wanted to see the new stunties in action myself, so I was game. I told my friend I would take something close to my normal list, but with a few modifications to try to make a fun match. For example, this meant no Carnosaur BSB since I was sure he would be dead in turn 1 from dwarf shooting.

My list:
1 Oldblood on Cold One - Glittering Scales, Dawnstone, Great Weapon
1 L2 Beasts Skink (Amber Spear, Wildform)
1 Skink Chief - Ripperdactyl, Charmed Shield, Spear, Light Armor
1 Scar-vet BSB - Cold One - Armor of Destiny, Great Weapon

14 Skink Skirmishers with Javelins & Shields
12 Skink Skirmishers with Javelins & Shields
12 Skink Skirmishers with Javelins & Shields

28 Saurus - Full Command

5 Cold One Riders - Spears
5 Ripperdactyls
8 Kroxigore
1 Bastiladon - Solar Engine

1 Ancient Stegadon with Engine of the Gods



His army (sort of) :
Thane BSB
Thane
Thane
Runepriest
Runepriest

Copter
Copter
Bomber

Bolt Thrower
Bolt Thrower
Cannon
Cannon

10 Quarrelers
15 Irondrakes + Torpedo
25-ish Warriors
25-ish Warriors
35-ish Ironbreakers


Summary of Events
I rolled and had control of the Watchtower. I knew that if I put something in it to start it would just allow him to charge it in turn one, whereas if I left it empty, the earliest he could get in it would be turn 3. I left it empty.

The rest of the table had a hill in each zone, a woods in each zone, and a wall at the half line, on the left.

His deployment from my left to right:
Cannon, cannon, bolt thrower (all on hill), bomber in front of hill, quarrelers in front of hill, bolt thrower, warriors, warriors + thane + runedude, iron drakes, ironbreakers + thane BSB + thane + other runedude, copter, copter (both used vanguard to get closer)

Me:
rippers (after vanguard move), chief ripper behind them (after vanguard move), 12 skinks behind that, ancient stegadon, bastiladon, Kroxigor, cav + general + BSB behind the monsters, Saurus (centered with Tower), 14 skinks with priest, 12 skinks

I put to toad on the quarrelers.

Turn 1
He moved his first copter 20 inches to the side of my skinks. I suspected he did not know he could not shoot if he marched, so I mentioned that if he planned to shoot, he might want to back up. He did. Both copters ended up just getting 10 inches closer and still had shots to hit some skinks.

The bomber headed to the right, behind his lines as the other stuff advanced.

He had no magic in the army.

Shooting put three wounds on the Ancient, killed a ripper, and killed 5 skinks (from copter shots) who ran away.


In my turn, I got the rippers to the flank of his artillery battery, with the ripper chief behind the unit. Everything else advanced with an eye toward shooting and getting my spells into position. The skinks rallied.

He dispelled Burning Alignment and the Laser (1 die each spell - only had 5 power die total). Amber spear went on total power (3 dice) and put one wound on a copter. I lost eh spell for the rest of the game.

My 14 skinks killed a copter (yay poison!), which made the other one panic away.

Turn 2
He charged the quarrelers into the rippers. The copter rallied. Other stuff moved up.

Shooting killed the Ancient Stegadon. A runed (S7) bolt thrower hit the ripper chief, but his Charmed Shield saved him.

Combat. Ah yes, combat. 10 lowly missile troops had engaged the fast rippers. Despite the presence of the toad on the quarellers, I only managed to kill 3 of them. In return, they did 5 wounds to the rippers, chased them away and killed them.


In my turn, I charged the chief into a cannon, the Kroxigor into both warriors units (had to hit both), and got my shooters into good spots. Also, the Saurus took the Watchtower.

Magic was stopped by two Dispel Scrolls (the dwarf version).

With shooting I wounded the copter and killed a cannon.

Combat was cool. The ripper chief was lined up to overrun to the bolt thrower, killed the cannon, and was stopped from overrunning by the explosion (12 S4 hits) of the cannon, killing the chief.
The Kroxigor were lovely. I took three wounds and dished back about 10. Steadfast stunties stuck around.

Turn 3
His bomber dropped a bomb that killed three Saurus in the building.
Shooting killed a few cold ones.
The Kroxigor lost another but killed another 10 dwarfs, who still hung around.

My turn. The bastiladon presented its rear to the Ironbreakers so as to get the rear-attack bonuses. He was angled to lead the ironbreakers away from the Watchtower.
The skinks shot down the other copter with the power of Wildform helping.
Combat broke one stuntie unit, but the Krox had to stick around to fight the other one, so they reformed to get more attacks in.


Turn 4
He bombed and shot the Cold Ones, who were fine.
He charged the Bastiladon, who was soundly beaten and ran, dwarfs chasing behind.
Some more dwarfs were eaten by Kroxgor, but not enough to make them run.

My turn was simple. The Bastiladon rallied. The Krox wiped out the stunties. I rolled a 6 and the game was over.


Result: Victory to the Lizardmen!



Post-game Thoughts and Unit Evaluations
People can say what they want about the downgrade to dwarf anti-magic. It's still great, even with a half-attempt like my opponent had. Not uber, just still really darn good.

The +1S and +1Parry rules were both useful for him as well, and the gyros gave him something fun to do besides just sit around and shoot from his back line. Our skinks seem well-suited to handle them.

The game sort of went as I expected with one exception. In Watchtower all that matters for the win is what's in the building. I expected him to concentrate more fire on the Saurus and to also send his Ironbkreakers in to fight. By him not doing that, I was pretty much assured of the win.

Also, expect to see vanguarding copters playing around in front of the Watchtower and for rangers to scout near it and take while waiting for other troops to relieve them. My opponent did not do this/have these and it made things much simpler for me.

All in all, a fun first game vs the new shorties.


Skink Skirmishers with Javelins and Shields
Great showing by them. Their kill list ended up at two gyrocopters and a cannon. Well done.

Saurus Warriors
Took the building. Stayed alive. Sort of what they do, really.

Bastiladon
He drew a dispel scroll and diverted the ironbreakers. He's really just a great little gap-filler, if you know what I mean. For not a lot of points, he can give you a tool that has lots of little uses. Just don't expect him to win the game for you.

Ancient Stegadon
Another pretty big disappointment here, but really it's what I should expect vs. dwarfs. After all, I opted to not have a carnosaur for this very reason. It didn't cost me the game today, but in other scenarios, he's probably wasted points against dwarfs. Glad I (once again!) did not spend the points on Sharped Horns.

Kroxigor
Whoo hoo! They rocked big time. They easily handled two blocks of dwarfs, killing one unit entirely and dropping the other one down to a single guy+2 characters who ran away. Finally!

Saurus BSB on Cold One
He hung out in the wound-pool, along with the general. All I wanted him to do was make sure the Saurus did not ever run out of the building, but it never even came up. The points saved by downgrading from a Carnosaur to Cold One allowed me to play with some other stuff. I missed the monster, but again, dwarfs, so...you know.

Oldblood on Cold One
He never really came into play. He was where he was to give the rippers a re-roll on Frenzy if needed, but in the end they outpaced him and never needed him anyway. If the game had gone on, I likely would have sent him in to fight the bomber.

Skink Priest
Putting him in skirmishers is the way to go. I got a miscast at one point that hurts all models in contact, which is nobody in this case. I did goof up when I forgot to annouce I would be trying the boosted Spear and thus only got to try S6 D3 wounds instead of S10 D6 on the copter. As it turns out, I rolled a 1 for wounds anyway, but it's still something I did wrong.

Skink Chief on Ripper
He was on his way to glory, but an explosion took him out. At least he killed the machine first. That charmed shield was a life saver.

Ripperdactyls
Wow. Talk about crappy! I put the toad on the quarrelers because I wanted to make sure that they could work with the chief to wipe out the whole shooting flank. It felt like overkill, but hey, maximize your chances, right?

Well, not so much. Four rippers with 4 KB attacks each, a stomp each, and a rider each, with re-rolls to hit on the KB attacks could not take out a minimum sized missile unit. That's pretty miserable.


So, that's that!

Thanks for reading!

 

[Putzfrau]

hooray!

 

[Screamer]

Good to have you back!

Your cowboys is kitted exactly how I like them (except I would add Other tricksters shard to the old blood). Too bad they didn't see any action.

 

[Putzfrau]

Re: Game 27 - 2400 vs Dwarfs

Ripperdactyls
Wow. Talk about crappy! I put the toad on the quarrelers because I wanted to make sure that they could work with the chief to wipe out the whole shooting flank. It felt like overkill, but hey, maximize your chances, right?

Well, not so much. Four rippers with 4 KB attacks each, a stomp each, and a rider each, with re-rolls to hit on the KB attacks could not take out a minimum sized missile unit. That's pretty miserable.

I still dont understand why there is such a push on this thread for rippers being some amazing unit. I think the fluff on them is great, the models are pretty cool and the toad rule is fantastic....

but when push comes to shove they seem to under perform. You have used them with a fair amount of frequency, If you had to give a definitive statement about them, what would you say?

 

[T_Saurus]

Re: Game 27 - 2400 vs Dwarfs

Ripperdactyls
Wow. Talk about crappy! I put the toad on the quarrelers because I wanted to make sure that they could work with the chief to wipe out the whole shooting flank. It felt like overkill, but hey, maximize your chances, right?

Well, not so much. Four rippers with 4 KB attacks each, a stomp each, and a rider each, with re-rolls to hit on the KB attacks could not take out a minimum sized missile unit. That's pretty miserable.

I still dont understand why there is such a push on this thread for rippers being some amazing unit. I think the fluff on them is great, the models are pretty cool and the toad rule is fantastic....

but when push comes to shove they seem to under perform. You have used them with a fair amount of frequency, If you had to give a definitive statement about them, what would you say?

Well the Rippers alone should have on average killed about 6 + 2 for stomps of those quarellers...Just terrible luck in this case.

But I will leave Sleboda to answer further as the question was posed to him

 

[IronJaw]

Honestly? The Dwarven Gunner/Quarrelers are about as good as regular Dwarven Warriors in CC.

 

[GCPD]

Re: Game 27 - 2400 vs Dwarfs

Ripperdactyls
Wow. Talk about crappy! I put the toad on the quarrelers because I wanted to make sure that they could work with the chief to wipe out the whole shooting flank. It felt like overkill, but hey, maximize your chances, right?

Well, not so much. Four rippers with 4 KB attacks each, a stomp each, and a rider each, with re-rolls to hit on the KB attacks could not take out a minimum sized missile unit. That's pretty miserable.

I still dont understand why there is such a push on this thread for rippers being some amazing unit. I think the fluff on them is great, the models are pretty cool and the toad rule is fantastic....

but when push comes to shove they seem to under perform. You have used them with a fair amount of frequency, If you had to give a definitive statement about them, what would you say?

Well, that's not saying much: so does everything that isn't a Skink with a javelin or Scar Vets. To me Ripperractyls are attractive because they can fly, and flying combat units are great in an army that otherwise caps out at M7, but they also have the distinction of actually being able to hit something in combat thanks to Toad Rage. Armour Pricing and Killing Blow aren't bad on a mobile platform either. If they were I4 they would be great - I5 or higher and a million Warseer users would cry out as one in pain. With I3 they are like most options okay (except the aforementioned inches them out ahead imo).

 

[Sleboda]

Re: Game 27 - 2400 vs Dwarfs

...when push comes to shove they seem to under perform. You have used them with a fair amount of frequency, If you had to give a definitive statement about them, what would you say?

=> Hmm. That's a tough one. I may come back and amend this, but right now, off the top of my head/from the gut:

Ripperdactyl Riders (to distinguish them from one bought as a character mount) offer mobility and the projection of a threat at distance. This threat is very real for war machines and lone (non-chaos) wizards - in other words, the absolute weakest fighters in the game. The threat is also significant to heavy cavalry that is already engaged in the front by a unit that will not give up much combat resolution (being already engaged prevents characters from moving to the side and deleting the unit before it swings.

In practically no situations should the engage units with a higher initiative to the front (or anywhere vs ASF re-roll troops).

What you should NOT expect from them is any sort of ability to win combat against even the most basic of quality troops, missile or otherwise. It is tempting to think they can handle a 10-man unit of basic missile troops, but if those troops have the ability to hit first, have a ward, or have the Toughness/Armor to live to swing back, Ripperdactyls, having minimal armor, very few wounds, and an exceedingly low Toughness, will melt away.

The biggest thing they offer to a Lizardmen general is a psychological threat. As long as your opponent fails to realize that they are paper tigers, he will overreact to them, which can be a great benefit. Think of them as you would think of a Casket of Souls and you won't be far off.

 

[Putzfrau]

Re: Game 27 - 2400 vs Dwarfs

...when push comes to shove they seem to under perform. You have used them with a fair amount of frequency, If you had to give a definitive statement about them, what would you say?

=> Hmm. That's a tough one. I may come back and amend this, but right now, off the top of my head/from the gut:

Ripperdactyl Riders (to distinguish them from one bought as a character mount) offer mobility and the projection of a threat at distance. This threat is very real for war machines and lone (non-chaos) wizards - in other words, the absolute weakest fighters in the game. The threat is also significant to heavy cavalry that is already engaged in the front by a unit that will not give up much combat resolution (being already engaged prevents characters from moving to the side and deleting the unit before it swings.

In practically no situations should the engage units with a higher initiative to the front (or anywhere vs ASF re-roll troops).

What you should NOT expect from them is any sort of ability to win combat against even the most basic of quality troops, missile or otherwise. It is tempting to think they can handle a 10-man unit of basic missile troops, but if those troops have the ability to hit first, have a ward, or have the Toughness/Armor to live to swing back, Ripperdactyls, having minimal armor, very few wounds, and an exceedingly low Toughness, will melt away.

The biggest thing they offer to a Lizardmen general is a psychological threat. As long as your opponent fails to realize that they are paper tigers, he will overreact to them, which can be a great benefit. Think of them as you would think of a Casket of Souls and you won't be far off.

Thanks for the analysis.

Not trying to dismiss anything you said, but if i had to crunch it down to just one statement, it seems like they aren't worth it. Psychological threat, as you said, relies on your opponent not knowing they can cut through them like wet paper.

I think i'll stick to my terradons. They seem to perform spectacularly for me, and at just around 100 points i can squeeze them into any list. In all honesty, the troops that "have the ability to hit first, have a ward, or have the Toughness/Armor to live to swing back" seem to be the issue in the first place. Rippers dont seem to fill a need that isn't already filled.

Well, that's not saying much: so does everything that isn't a Skink with a javelin or Scar Vets. To me Ripperractyls are attractive because they can fly, and flying combat units are great in an army that otherwise caps out at M7, but they also have the distinction of actually being able to hit something in combat thanks to Toad Rage. Armour Pricing and Killing Blow aren't bad on a mobile platform either. If they were I4 they would be great - I5 or higher and a million Warseer users would cry out as one in pain. With I3 they are like most options okay (except the aforementioned inches them out ahead imo).

And terradons, ancient stegs, salamanders...

I agree on the I4. Toughness 4 would be a huge boost as well i think. I'd use oodles of them at toughness 4.

 

[GCPD]

Re: Game 27 - 2400 vs Dwarfs

And terradons, ancient stegs, salamanders...

Skinks on Terradons have Javelins too

I don't think that Salamanders are as good as they were solely through loss of move and shoot, and Ancient Stegadons are somewhat clunky and awkward in the laser-cannon environment. Like a Slann, they are definitely solid choices, but I'd put them (along with Chamo Skinks) a tier below Scar-Vets and the humble Javelin Skink.

 

[Mr Phat]

On the Ripperdactyl subject...am I the only one who thinks that "piranha" is a keyword?

piranhas are strong in numbers and even big predators fear them..due to numbers...
the Toad marker rule also hints that "you want multiple units" to be able to put the hurt on more units.

have anyone tried to max out? I mean, REALLY max out?
as in, 3 units of 10 ?

a swarm of piranah isnt a swarm when there is 5

 

[T_Saurus]

On the Ripperdactyl subject...am I the only one who thinks that "piranha" is a keyword?

piranhas are strong in numbers and even big predators fear them..due to numbers...
the Toad marker rule also hints that "you want multiple units" to be able to put the hurt on more units.

have anyone tried to max out? I mean, REALLY max out?
as in, 3 units of 10 ?

a swarm of piranah isnt a swarm when there is 5

3 units of 10?...

How would you run those units? 5 wide? The back rank would only have the riders attacking...I could maybe see trying 3 units of 5 at some point just for shits but units of 10 would be inappropriate I think.

 

[Prof]

but can you imagine the look on your opponents face!
You could squeeze in an extra with a chief on one too lol

 

[Thatguyoverthere11]

There is something to this. I was running 2x4 until I realized, for 40 more points, you can take 3x3. Sure, if someone dies 2 are a lot less effective than 3, but this is the 'piranha' tactic you're speaking of.

If you can set up toad markers on key units, you can mob them with 9 rippers at once... 3 times!

Mix in ripper chiefs to have your own airforce!

 

[Pinktaco]

On the Ripperdactyl subject...am I the only one who thinks that "piranha" is a keyword?

piranhas are strong in numbers and even big predators fear them..due to numbers...
the Toad marker rule also hints that "you want multiple units" to be able to put the hurt on more units.

have anyone tried to max out? I mean, REALLY max out?
as in, 3 units of 10 ?

a swarm of piranah isnt a swarm when there is 5

A quick questions about these: Do you actually run these in skirmish formation when moving or do they just have the rule when determining the To Hit roll when shooting against them? Beacause 5 wide in skirmish would be quite wide ._.

 

[Markhaus]

"He was a real champ today. I tried to combat reform after the first round vs Kharybdiss so that I could present his rear and get the attack that is S10 and +1 to hit. I failed so I was stuck on his 3 little attacks plus the riders' attacks. He died. Before that, though, he really took care of the Dark Riders and drew out dispel dice. I like him a lot."

I read this and was confused. You know you get the S10 attack either way, right? The rear just gives that attack +1 to hit. If so, I read this wrong, but I wanted to make sure you weren't losing the S10 because you misread the entry.
Sorry if this was asked before (I am only on page 10 and this was on page 6)
Awesome reports by the way, just taking me a long time to read through

Have you tried Kroq Gar for the 5-6 save on Grymlok? I was hoping it solved the dead carnosaur problem

 

[Sleboda]

Actually, Markhaus, the S10 benefit is very much debatable. I, personally, only claim it to the back since that is one way to read the ambiguous text and I endeavor to claim is few advantages based on grey rules as I can when I play.

Just one of the MANY little annoying (and easy to clear up) things that GW has failed to address with their customers who bought defective rules products since April of last year.

I have not tried Krog-gar because even though it helps the beast, the rider's equipment is very far from how I prefer mine to be done.

 

[Markhaus]

Hurting yourself because GW didn't write things properly. Ouch. I am the opposite because many of their units become worthless that way. Based on my reading of the LM book Tiqtaqto can join units, the bastiladon S10 is everywhere but +1WS is back only, skink chiefs can use their BS for the blowpipes or bow, and PF works on assists. I have seen solid arguments for both (including FAQs from previous editions). None of them are game breakers either way, and since they make the game more fun without being OP I do them, but won't complain if my opponent calls shenanigans. The important thing is that the game remains fun and fair, to BOTH players, not just your opponent.

I have really enjoyed reading the unit analysis after each battle. I will have to post a battle report next time I play.

 

[Sleboda]

Hurting yourself because GW didn't write things properly. Ouch. I am the opposite because many of their units become worthless that way.

=> I hear ya' but here's the conversation I really want to avoid:

Me: "So, I do This Thing."
Other: "Actually, I think it doesn't work like that."
Me: "Really? That's how I read it."
Other: "Let's take a look at the rule."

(read, read, read)

Me: "See, you could read it the way I play it."
Other: "Yeah, but my reading is valid as well and your way makes your stuff more powerful, so of course you want to read it that way."
Me: "Yep. Sorry."


I'd rather just take it on the chin and leave nothing for my opponent to grumble about after the game.

Based on my reading of the LM book Tiqtaqto can join units,

=> Hmm. Not to pick a fight, but that one is just factually incorrect. There is no rule that allow him to do that. There is a hint that something in the rules may have been written wrong or edited out, but as the rules are, as they ended up being published, the rule is pretty clear (if sucky).

and PF works on assists.

=> That one is even more clear than the one above. Wishful thinking aside, it's just not within the rules. In fact, it's directly forbidden.

I'd love to have all those rules work in my favor, but right now I don't have the right to impose any of them on someone who expects the rules that are published to be actually followed.

I have seen solid arguments for both (including FAQs from previous editions). None of them are game breakers either way,

=> First off, it doesn't matter if they are game breakers. It's the principle - you follow the rules because, after all, that's why they are there!

Second, the PF thing at least can have a gigantic impact on army design. If PF worked on supporting attacks, it would radically change my build. Why? Because it would make my army far better to do so.

I have really enjoyed reading the unit analysis after each battle. I will have to post a battle report next time I play.

=> I'm glad you are enjoying them and that they are spurring conversation. I'm getting ready to get back to playing and posting more reports soon-ish.

Thanks for reading them!

 

[Markhaus]

=> That one is even more clear than the one above. Wishful thinking aside, it's just not within the rules. In fact, it's directly forbidden.

I would agree it is more clear, just to the opposite result. Page 11 of the rulebook. Advanced vs basic rules. I started a thread (which is probably a repeat, but I couldn't find it) in Rules Help so I don't take up more of your battle report thread.