The only issue with this that I have found is that the EotG and lore of beast attribute only make it easier to cast, they do not add to the casting value, which means it is even easier to dispel since you need less dice to cast. I highly doubt it will allow for dominate phase unless you find a way to get a higher casting value for less dice. Unlike the VC tactic of book of ashur plus mortis engine giving a +3 to all casting attempts, with a lvl 4 that means their minimum 1 dice successfully cast spells need between 10-13 to dispel.
Certainly not a bad writeup, but you should do a lot to make it readable with headings/colours/quotations/cursives. Look at some Tactica from Scalanex and try to copy his style, it really helps in making it clear what you mean. It is not just what you are saying, it is also how you present it.
Here is a pretty typical list that I will run, as you can see I focus on 3 combat units and rely on very little skink support and no war machine hunting. If the opponent has cannons then I run my characters in the cold one unit, if not I run one of them in the temple guard, gor-rok is almost always in the saurus unit. If you are not allowed special characters then tool out a scar vet to go into your saurus unit. Oldblood w/Cold One, GW Armor of Destiny Dawnstone Other Tricksters Shard Oldblood w/Cold One Piranha Blade Stegadon Helm Luckstone Ironcurse Icon Scar Vet w/Cold One BSB, LA, SH, SP Skavenpelt Banner Gor-Rok Skink Priest lvl1 Beast Dispel Scroll Skink Priest lvl1 Beast Cube of Darkness 40x Saurus w/FC, w/hws 11x Skinks w/javelins 11x Skinks w/javelins 20x Temple Guard CH/ST, Jaguar Standard 9x Cold One Calvary ST Bastilodon w/Arc of Chotec Ok, so some of the worst filth I have come across for DoC include Kairos and Epidemius with another nurgle herald. Against lizardmen Kairos is going to certainly have pit of shades, and many other very nasty spells to throw out, combined with epidemius tally we would need to control the game almost from turn 1 or else it is going to get out of hand fast. But at that many points put into non-combat characters they are going to have a very hard time against a lizardmen army if we can get in their face. Kairos is most effective at 5 dicing one spell, +6 to cast means he has a great chance to beat a normal dispel, and then to 2 dice other spells. My game plan is based on dice rolls to either spend all my dispel dice on the one big spell (pit of shades usually) or scroll it, this does mean he needs to get close to me and with his stats I can throw anything in my army at him so that is risky. Plaguebearers are my personal favorite to use with my DoC army, they are tough and can be buffed to really either stick around or do damage. But they are not on par with saurus warriors, and with character support their daemonic instability will quickly reduce them. Honestly I haven't found much of an issue with a "Nurgle wall" my character will kill the herald first then the unit goes to town. temple guard chew up anything in that army, CoRs with skavenpelt throw out an immense amount of damage and take almost none in return which makes CR overwhelming, and saurus are better and cheaper and in horde formation overwhelm nurgle minions. So although Nurgle is my favorite to use I do not find that it is highly effective against lizardmen, the most dangerous things are really the non-nurgle items in the army. But even then if the opponent doesn't keep Kairos away from my skinks or deal with them as a priority they usually will bring him down before the end of the game. Or a long charge from a well positioned unit to get him early and limit his effectiveness. So my take on this is that for DoC we need to focus on character hunting, overall their units die to ours and we just need to make sure the match-ups are right. By the way hover for plague drones is much easier to deal with than flying because they have at most a 10" range and our CoRs can out manuever them.
That's a lot of melee heroes. I myself only have one, all the other heroes are wizards. That said, my oldblood is kitted like hell, a respectable offense but a massive defense. Attacks would need to be at least S7 to reliably do damage to him, not counting buffs that my many wizards are happy to throw at him.
Well if it works for you I shouldn't stand stubborn and not at least try it out. Especially not when the list is ETC-legal. I must admit that I am very sceptical, but I'll challenge my mate and his nurgle wall with this. Couple of questions first though, which are made from the view: "This list is intended for tournament use, and is not tailored for nurgle armies" THE LIST 1. What do you do after your Scroll and cube are gone? Is the goal to have reached combat at this point? The obvious way to deal with you would be to stand back and get as much damage through spells through as possible. Meaning chaffing you up and overpower the skinks. This obviously doesn't happen to you, and i'd like to know why 2. How do you run the cold ones? (how wide) 2.1 Are they rushing forward or waiting on your other units? 3. Confused about the bastiladon, is the the Arc of SOTEK or the Solar Engine with the beam of CHOTEC? 4. Regarding your CoR outmaneuvering hovering units, what do you mean by that exactly? Refused flank? Hover units have the charge-advantage on most things, that is the general problem with them in my view. 5. How do deal with chaff? Cowboys just plunges into everything he can get his jaws on? THE META 1. At said tournaments: what other matchups does this list run into? 2. Is it a "Run everything towards the middle and throw dice approach" or are you guys also measuring angles and inches as if your life counted on it? 3. Are your meta "locally" or "internationally" based? Locally being: - you guys only play guys from your own community Internationally being - players from your community often play players during international events, like the ETC. (in other words: are your meta ever engaging other metas?) That should do! Sorry for the inquisition but I need to know how you play this to understand how it could work Must admit that im happy to field my saurus again!
Thank you very much for keeping an open mind, I don't mind being sent to the inquisition at all and in fact enjoy answering any and all questions, it makes it twice as much fun when someone like you is actually willing to give my words weight and try it out for yourself. I look forward to a battle report for that match up The List: 1) So a scroll or cube will essentially end a magic phase for someone, if they cast their big gun up front then I either send all my dice (on a low attempt for them) or scroll it (for a higher attempt) and that means if I scroll it then I have a lot more dice than they do left to dispel. Or if they try to trickle cast spells then I weather the damage for the 1st and 2nd usually and send all my dice against whichever lower level spell seems the most dangerous. This may seem hard but when I already grossly overpower an army in combat due to point allocations I can take magic missiles in the face and keep coming with almost no worries. If I am able to dice dispel 1 round of his big spell, I can scroll another and cube a 3rd, that means I am essentially garauranteed safe passage from any really harmful spells until turn 4. That means I have 3-4 turns in which I can limit his movement and set up my charges, I have also found that in a game there is almost always going to be a magic phase that doesn't have much for winds of magic, if that happens even better. The way I avoid being chaffed is to mutually support each unit with another close block, and if it looks like they are going to try delay tactics then I keep my skinks behind my saurus or to the side so that they cannot be easily targeted, that allows my saurus to ignore PF for pursuing. And I can even bring up the bastilodon to hit a chaff unit and usually chew it up with thunderstomp, keeping him in the combat line allows for passive buffing and good targets to bastilo-blast. 2) This is entirely dependent on my enemy, if they bring any type of cannon I run them 12 wide lol, it may seem silly but that denies a 2nd casualty from bolt throwers and cannons, which is really helpful. In fact when the opponent knows at best he can kill a single cold one usually he doesn't even try to hit the unit. If I am facing an army with little to no war machines or no rank penetrating attacks then I like to run them 7 wide for maximum attacks. I am not afraid of taking a few DT tests if it means I line up to my advantage or deny shooting attacks the ability to take out multiple models. 2.1) Generally they will either control a flank and run up or range just ahead of the center line, with character support they are a mini deathstar so I don't worry about anything hitting into them. I'm not usually hesitant to send them at a long charge due to them already being ahead of the saurus, so if they fail them I still maintain my battle line and keep flank support, I also run temple guards with swiftstride to get that long charge off as well. 3) Sorry, I almost always go for beam of chotec, with only skink priests I have the dice to go nuts with him and still attempt wyssans so his blast is highly effective and fairly often I have gotten IF on a key cast with no downside to him. 4) Hover units have the charge range advantage but as you can see from my list I would be ok with him charging into anything but skinks, every other unit will crush those drones. Otherwise they have a 2" movement range advantage over saurus, my CoRs can march 16" and so greatly outmanuever them on a flank by turn 2. By the way, I would almost always rather take a charge than give one if my opponent is wanting to get into a cc fight, I only lose 1 CR by giving it up and it provides me the opportunity to charge a fleeing unit next turn or rally before I get charged. 5) with skink priests providing control over PF I can move my saurus with charges and just re-position, I can also afford to take a flank or rear charge with saurus from chaff units as it will essentially just give me extra CR. So if they try to redirect me I just move forward and reform, charge in and reform from victory (when applicable), or send out 1-2 characters to deal with all the chaff. I have a hay day with other lizard players that want to use skink clouds, their poison shots do very little to my army and one defensive old blood racks up twice his points by chasing those units all game. I have before put gor-rok in with a skink unit and used him to clear chaff and then flank charge afterwards, also temple guard with swiftstride greatly affects my enemies ability to chaff me. The Meta: 1) I play this sort of list against a lot of elf armies, WoC, VC, and ogres, sometimes I see O&G, dwarves, skaven etc. With DE armies I have run against avoidance lists and witch elf deathstar lists, this does great with both, I crush HE lists fairly easily as they just don't have the combat units that can stand up to saurus, let alone 4 saurus characters in combat units. 2) Measure angles and inches with a passion, I have said before that I play the movement phase like I do chess, I will be measuring and calculating angles and statistics for something that might happen in 2-3 turns from now. When in doubt I also check with my opponent, if you move to X then this unit can see you correct? etc, otherwise it is pretty cuthroat and if you are off by a 1/16th of an inch you don't get the charge. 3) Almost all local in this meta, but I am in the US military so I actually move to different metas fairly often, each one is usually a little different and I need to learn or adjust but in the end I can field saurus and win. Sorry for the long winded answers, I hope they help, my current meta is limited but I hope to return to international play soon.
Good sir, those answer met and overdid expectations. And dont apologogize for long answers, we thank you for in-depth explanations around here I think I get it. While still skeptical in how this will work out for me I am just thrilled to put my boys back on the table. In any case: Im gon get me some Gore'Rocko'Saurus! A couple followups though - You say CoR marches 16'', but you do mean 14'' right? - Still worried about them meeting high armored units like demigryphs. I did the math yesterday and on equal points Demigryphs kill saurus over in dozens (38 saurus vs 7 demigryphs = as it is the biggest unit allowed for each under ETC) That was without gor-rok though. What is your experience with the Empire +1 across the board setup? S4 does nothing to that, so is it just "Take the charge and grind" until you can add a Cowboy to the combat? - How do you place Gor-rok? My guess: on the corner of the horde: 1. for minimal return attacks 2. If he is out of combat you make way to the edge of the other unit. This however negates the use of his shield. So I guess my question is: Can he take the charges coming at him? T6 is great but with no Wardsave 2W is easily nited, and then you main block loses the all-important stubborn.
Hmm.. I wasn't aware the Etc rules had been updated. Have they always allowed special characters? At any point we're not hit that bad if you're playing with saurus warriors. How does an Empire list look with the 2015 ETC rules Mr phat? From what I can understand you can have 1 tank, 1 big unit of demigryphs and sprinkle it with s couple of great cannons. Or 1 tank, 2 units of 4 demigryphs and a couple of cannons.
An OB with AoD and Dawnstone will only take 0,18 wound from the demigryphs - should be fairly safe ^^ 0,375 if you don't have the ward or dawnstone (armour reduced to 4+ due to armour piercing D.
ETC have allowed SC's for about a year now so still fairly new! The empire restricts are utter B_ _ _ _ _ _ T imo. The last tournament I faced again a veteran player who won the whole thing. 3 fairly size units of Inner Circle knights 3 Cannons (backed with master engineer) 1 Hellblaster 1 steam tank 1 unit of 4-5 Demigryphs 1 Light wizard (lvl4 I think) 1 Heavens wizard 1 Pegasus fella Thats how I recall it at least. I dont doubt that this guy, who is deemed as one of the best players in DK (to my knowledge), would have steamrolled me with any army, but this particular matchup was VERY HARD to deal with when you run skink cloud + cold one bus. The skinks was no thread to him as I couldnt circle around his knights (no pun intended) and the cold one bus was shot to pieces before it could do what it should. I had one glorious moment a la The Last Samurai where my bus got pummeled down to the 3 cowboys and the unit champ. I made all of my cowboys leave the "unit" and went straight through his lines, between the gaps, to head for the cannons, the champion did the same. Sadly, just like in the movie they all got shot down inches before they hit home....but I felt good, I saw him sweat for a moment! I actually expect that the list @protector presents would have done way better in this matchup.
The good thing about the knights is that they are fairly useless after charge. 1 unit of demigryphs can be managed by an OB, but it get's kinda more annoying when more than one unit of demis are present lol Sounds nasty either way.
Yesterday the saurus got more renown (Warning long post) A person (currently my nemesis, since i have lost to him like all our matches)from my club was up for a match, the previous losses was against a chaos legion list, which had a lot of chariots including khorne chariot cannons -.-, but yesterday he fielded a hard list, but as it turned out, beatable WoC list. His list was 2500 pts WoC: Tzeentch deamonprince with lore of metal and some things i dont remember. BSB on deamonic mount 1+/3++ (reroll 1) Festus Throgg 24 nurgle chaos warriors with halberds 3 skullcrushers (no champ) 4 skullcrushers (no champ) 6 trolls My list was 2493 pts lizard (surprise): Oldblood (CO, GW, dawnstone, tricksters helm, OTS) Oldblood (CO, GW, AoD) Scar-Vet (BSB skavenpeltbanner, spear, shield, CO) Gor-rok Skink priest (lvl1 beast, scroll) Skink priest (lvl1 beast, cube) 43 SW (banner, musician) 2x10 skirmishers 24 templeguard (jaguar banner [swiftstride], musician) 9 coldone riders 1 bastilodon This is not supposed to be a battle report, but a little explanation is needed We played the scenario where you deploy diagonally and there was a big centrepiece of impassable terrain [rock], which was crucial for my deployment… he got to go first and deployed his 4 man skullcrushers and trolls (with throgg) at my right side of the rock and his nurgle men and other skullC on the left side of the rock, bsb and DP behind to be able to react to things… anyway i deployed my big block with gor-rok directly in front (13 inches) from his warriors with my temple guard (the 3 saurus chars was here since COC was in reserve -.-) in front of the skullC… He got to go first and wanted to charge SW with everything starting with Warriors, then SkullC(3) and the DP… there where no room for DP so he got failed charge … in combat gorrok took the challenge against the unit champ of the warriors and killing him.. I lost like 14 SW but held… My turn. I charge with temple guard into flank of skullC (3)… gorrok challenges festus, temple guard block kills two skullC , 10 SW die (at this point 2 WOC has lost their ”life”) I thought it looked bad combat ends even in CR so still frenzy… His turn. He charges with skullC4 (TG), DP(SW) and BSB(SW) (I was like – I am going to die now) but that didn’t happen he flukes his attacks different places and one of my oldbloods kills two SkullC(4) and I end up with 2 SW plus gorrok (1 wound left) and yet again an even combat… My next turn. I IF wyssans on my temple guard and they go to the fray since his warriors only are in base contact with gorrok (who challenges the BSB) then they cant hit and the DP kills the remaining 2 SW and my TG killing the remaining skullC(2) and 1 from the first unit I generate enough CR to win by 5 and then his warriors flee (bsb and DP hold but TG follows and when he rolled 12 on flee (I was like im not gonna catch that) but guess what 1,6,6 on my jaguar banner and dead warriors… (rules question: this was a big combat and between his WoC and my TG was the DP will i be able to run them down since i chose to follow and beating his roll eventhough the DP is in the way i can support with a painting if needed) Anyway he Conceeds here with throgg not even close to combat… thanks skinks and with 2 oldbloods with GW infront of his DP. Afterthoughts of the game was (for my point of view) is that we both had bad rolls at crucial times and good rolls at crucial times I do not think the dice good favoured one of us… WOW Gor-Rok is amazing especially with the rerolls to hit and PF on 5 and 6 its just amazing in one round against festus he made 6 attacks even though he hits on 5+… the aggressive deployment of my saurus was not expected of him and I think it took my nemesis by surprise and thus forcing him to react and therefore making bad decisions. Should I reequip my oldbloods I have 7 leftover points? which also can go to another skink… I have used 633 on core.
Reequip OBs so one have AoD and dawnstone and another have talisman of preservation and light armour. The trickster helm is interesting, but there's not much in forcing rerolls on 2-3+ <.< Concerning bad rolls: you always have to remember that yes every once in a while it happens to you, but as you mentioned it certainly also happens to the opponent. A lot of people who complain about bad rolls tend to forget about the amazing rolls