Tutorial Saurus Warriors.. The tactica?!

I'm finding this thread really interesting, so thanks for everyone's input.

@protector, do you run all-comers lists or tailor them to your opponent? (I'm not suggesting one way is better than the other, btw)

It's just that you seem to be advocating both large 40+ blocks of Saurus AND MSU of Saurus and that seems to be pretty much all your points gone there.
Just interested in how you're running things.

 

I almost always run all comers lists, even when I'm only playing my brother I won't know what army he is going to bring because he has access to all of them. I have run MSU saurus lists before and done well, but I prefer big blocks of saurus because then I can add in some more variety in my support elements, you are correct that if I do MSU then almost all my points will be going to saurus.

About the only thing that are must haves in my lists are oldbloods, and possibly a bastilodon, saurus come close but sometimes I want to make a fast attack list so I leave them at home. I am advocating saurus in multiple builds in this thread mainly because as a community we have overlooked them and just not used them well, but it doesn't mean you need them to win.

I personally own around 180 saurus warriors, and play games that go up to 10K, which lends itself to eye opening matchups that I would not have expected the results from (Like pounding a witch elf unit). And so I take those lessons and apply them to smaller games, I would say big blocks are more effective, but if you have a problem with avoidance lists then the board control of MSU saurus is almost unbeatable with the right support options.

 

My Saurus are the cornerstone of my army, they hit harder than anything else I can field and they tank wounds like bosses. I take my Saurus in a block of ten wide, seven ranks with spears. That gives them two rows extra ranks of supporting attacks. Mix that with the Lore of Light and holy hell do they go from slow to lightning bruisers. Speed of Light, their WS3 I1 is now WS10 I10. Or better yet, Birona's Timewarp. ASF and, most vitally, and extra attack a piece. My record is currently 67 attacks in one round, it was a massacre.

tl;dr Spear horde and Lore of Light = awesomesauce.

 

That is quite the unit... what sized games do you play? How do fit in the skinks?

The extra attack is nice (especially with speed of light in play), but it will only give you so many attacks because only the guys in base-to-base contact benefit. Still... it is an awesome spell for Saurus; not Mindrazor good, but still pretty impressive.

 

I tend to play 3000 point games. I don't use skinks very much personally, I don't like them. Aside from chameleons and a couple of priests, I don't make use of them, they're too fragile for my tastes and their leadership is too low to hold long enough for me to counter-attack should the fight go bad.

My main issue with the Mindrazor is the higher casting value which makes dispels more crippling to my power pool, and the fact that I find Light to just be more effective overall because it can cover a lot of the Lizard's weaknesses such as the I1 that makes Pit of Shades and the like instantly devastating.

 

I play 3000 point games as well! You must be one of the few Lizardmen players who doesn't like skinks. I consider them one of the best units we have.

I agree, light is a brilliant lore for our army!

 

3K team, YEAH!

But yeah, I am in the severe minority with skinks. But I just find them far to easy to break or fear with their horrid LD, and too fragile with their T2. The poisoned attacks are good, but solid armour can counter that. Magic can fix this of course, but a well placed dispel can cripple that fix.

And yeah, Light feels nearly tailor made for us.

 

I personally love playing at 3000pts, because you have plenty of room to fit in all sorts of units. I think we're in the minority, I don't come across many people on forums that play at 3K. Due to tournaments, most people seem to hover around the 2400-2500 mark.

That's okay, it's good to have different list types in the community. I love skinks myself because they are pretty much the best chaff in the game and their shooting can really take a toll. They really shine at avoidance/annoyance tactics!

 

I'm rather glad about my gaming situation because 3k is the norm where I go. Some people are running 4k-8k lists, rarely used but they're a sight to see. Still, that pales compared to the time when one guy fielded a 30k Vampires army against multiple opponents, that was an amazing sight.

Very true. And the lizards are pretty diverse too, saurus and skinks being pretty much polar opposites and what not, plus the monsters. All we lack is war machines.

 

That must have been quite the amazing force on the battlefield!

What about the giant bow on the back of the Stegadon? hahaha Of course it can't seem to hit a thing!

Skinks seems to get all the praise, while poor Saurus are often dismissed and considered underpowered. This thread has definitely helped shed a more realistic light on our Saurus. They seem to be much better than most people give them credit for... some of the results admittedly surprised me.... we beat Witch Elves!!!

 

we... Kinda have war machines,
It's just that they are either dinosaurs, (salamander, razordons)
or mounted to dinosaurs.(bastilidaon, stegadons)

 

It was an amazing sight, over 16 ft across and with horde armies no less. Plus Nagash was fielded.

As a guy fielding a saurus army, I object to those underpowered claims. It's all about how you use them, the strategic layer can turn tides after all.

 

That's my point, this thread has demonstrated the true potential of saurus. It seems that Saurus may have been unfairly labeled as underpowered by the community.

 

Unfortunately our 'war machines' are not cannons, doom divers or organ guns (y'know, all the best war machines in the game)

 

I would argue that we don't have any war machines beyond the Stegadon's weak Giant Bow. The Salamander functions similar to one, but it's weaker, more mobile, and doesn't explode as well as being something that can actually stand up in combat.

 

That's true. I'd be curious to see how our power level and game mechanics would change if we would have access to even one of those options.

 

Ok, this is going to be a long post, and I will probably update it as I have time, but here is my stab at a saurus warriors tactica. This is my first time really trying to put words into this type of format so please feel free to pick it apart or ask for clarification.

Protector’s Saurus Warrior Tactica

Step 1: How to build a saurus unit the way the old ones meant them to be
This is not meant to offend anyone but I feel very strongly that saurus warriors are point for point the 2nd best infantry in the game and are almost exclusively under-utilized by us lizardmen generals. So to break down the awesomeness of saurus I will be going point by point on why they are so great and how to use them in the most brutally efficient way I know how.

1) Saurus Warriors are I1, this is incredibly important to remember when building units, it factors into striking order for almost everything and is probably the single most important culprit in why saurus are not fielded often. We will strike last almost every time, only great weapon wielders (who are not elves) and zombies seem to go behind us. This means two things, the first of which is that we need to prepare for losses up front, use that cold blooded mentality and count your dead while they still walk. If you think you have a “crumple” zone then increase it, field enough in each unit to absorb a massive amount of damage and still hit with as many attacks as possible. The second thing it means is that we need to play defense first and offense second, this is important when deciding if you want spears or hand weapons, hint you always want hand weapons. When the enemy is dealing out 12 wounds in the first round what is more important, saving 2 of those wounds or getting an additional 6-10 attacks? The wounds make more of a difference, those attacks hit 3-5 times and cause an unsaved wound against a T3 opponent with a 5+ AS 2-3 times. This is about the best case scenario for attacks, it gets even worse from here, especially if you didn’t build enough of a crumple zone, so at best you are getting a wash. And we make our money in the front rank with multiple PF attacks per model, supporting attacks as the rules stand now are just not as important.

2) Know who you want to fight, it is vital to anticipate how you want your saurus to match up before you build the unit, this will determine size more than anything. If you are anticipating holding off fast cavalry, chaff units, skaven, or undead units then smaller 12-18 sized units do wonderful. If you want to crush the elites of your opponent or bring down large monsters then you want 30+, a good rule of thumb is that you want 1 more rank than any elite unit you are facing. So if you were to hit 18 white lions you want 24 saurus, that match up wins for you quite well by the way, it does even better at 40 to 50. Also it is important to note that if you want to go into the teeth of an enemy deathstar saurus can still chew through it, but you need to support them with at least as much as that unit is supported. So if they have a hag with cauldron then through an equal amount of character points into your saurus before taking a charge, same with white lions that has a lvl4 caster, either save your scroll to make sure they don’t get a WS that round or add in some characters to put out more damage. I see a lot of lizardmen generals running naked saurus units and giving saurus no love when they get wiped out by a unit that was supported, pound for pound your saurus are almost the best, just don’t forget to balance the scales if needed.

That is it for building units, have a game plan and work out how you would handle different units in your head, work through some maneuvering and numbers to make sure you have as many bases as possible covered. In fact I tie my saurus character builds into how my saurus units are made up so that I can face as many different builds as possible, most of the time I don’t have a typical oldblood build because he is built to handle something saurus would struggle with alone, or to fill a void that I foresee if faced with a certain army type. And remember, saurus are core, if used properly they can wreck face on other armies’ special and rare, that alone is nuts and well worth the investment. It is actually a mental battle every time I make a list because skinks are so good but saurus are just game winners time and again for me, I love playing an army that has the best core options in the game.

Step 2: Deployment/Maneuvering and how to run up and punch fast horses in the face

Alright so the second hard to manage aspect of saurus besides low initiative is their M4, this seems to be stopping a lot of lizard generals from using them. This seems odd to me when I hear that M4 stops saurus from being useful, I see Warriors of Chaos, grave guard, dwarf infantry, empire greatswords, etc all being used to great affect and they also have M4. Even the elf troops only have +1M over saurus and they are seen as great choices, the same units that saurus can chew up and spit out easily. So time to change our way of thinking and pull out some real useful tactics to get saurus in contact, I personally think M6+ for almost our entire army has made us lazy and we see normal movement as a weakness when instead it is needed so that infantry are not OP.

1) When deploying your army you want to take terrain and the next 3 turns of movement into consideration. How are you going to position your saurus after the 2nd turn of movement, what are the best angles to ensure a charge on the unit you want them to hit? Remember that with M4 you can be across the board in 3 turns and ready to charge anything, even against fast armies if they cannot break you then you can control the board space and funnel them to a spot where you can catch them by turn 5.

2) When you set up your saurus and throughout the game please remember that perfectly symmetrical blocks are almost never the most effective. Make movement trays that allow for change or that can be extended, if your opponent shows up with 6 wide movement trays then place your saurus 8 wide, remember the front ranks attacks are key. But there are also times you need extra ranks, it is fine to give the charge to someone else so that you can maximize your tactical advantage in formations. I will let white lions charge me even if I could easily reach them just so that I can reform to my advantage, as the rules stand that +1 CR for charging is not needed, and it is always better whether pursuing or fleeing to be the unit that took a charge instead of executed. That way you can charge a fleeing unit the next turn, or rally before they charge you again, I cannot stress enough how much the movement phase is like chess, the more turns you think ahead the easier the win will be by far.

3) As you move your saurus up there are two main considerations, does the enemy want to get into close combat or not? If they are trying to avoid you then you need to focus on one thing, board control, with saurus this is so much easier than skinks. Reform as wide as possible and move up, almost every fast cavalry unit cannot do anything to saurus, even wild riders have a really hard time and unless they have a very large unit will not be able to break a smaller saurus unit. You can take DT tests or whatever as you move up, just ensure that you leave no gaps between units, if your enemy gives you a tempting charge do not take it and instead move up and continue to limit his movement. By playing this way you control his area and range of movement and can ensure you will get all units in combat in the last 2 turns, more than enough time to crush avoidance lists in combat. If your enemy does want to get into combat with you then plan out how you want it to go, some units will turn into a grind and other you can blow right through, a very few will actually make you flee but if you plan on it and have it set up in your favor then after they flee your enemy will have played into your hands and you can close a trap. For example have your oldblood behind your saurus unit when they are facing savage orc big uns, you flee they pursue into him and then lets say a steg charges in as well on your turn, or not either way they lose choppas and after your saurus rally they can charge in and chew through them. A little OT plug for Gor-Rok right now, if he was in that saurus unit he would let them stay and after choppas was done the saurus would actually win the next round and without choppas or frenzy your saurus would chew them up. And if you give up the charge to reform you can line up Gor-Rok with their shaman and he will definitely kill him before your saurus attack which downgrades their ward save, but enough of that lol.

4) Who to position against, this seems like it would be critical to your success with saurus but it really isn’t. Actually the list of who you want to avoid is stupidly short, actually I think saurus are a little OP based on how hard it is to kill them with other units. It boils down to this for me, monstrous cavalry, chaos knights, and trolls, there are a few more things that are rough but nothing that is a real show stopper, and even if the saurus can’t run through it they can tarpit until you get support or until you have mopped up the enemies other units. As I said before though, do not treat stand alone saurus units like they are elite units with characters and buffs, this seems silly to say but I see it a lot (Saurus suck, I charged into a white lion unit and they got destroyed, yeah they had an anointed and lvl4 caster who buffed them last turn, so what they are bred for war…). If you get a single buff on a saurus unit they turn into monsters, if you put a single character in that unit it suddenly crushes heavy cavalry and high AS units. Saurus can certainly run the board without help, but if you opponent is stacking things in his favor them please remember to prioritize giving your saurus some love. It may be better to get a wyssans off on a saurus unit so that the large dark rider unit with multiple characters can’t break it in a single turn instead of bastilo-blasting a dark rider chaff unit away. Best advice is to play for the end game not for the current turn.

Alright so that is the basics of saurus warriors and using them in a battle, now we will move on to specific items and address other difficulties and builds.

List of reasons why saurus should be in your army

1) They all but ignore the enemies shooting phase. It takes 14 dark riders under half range to kill 2 saurus, and a repeater bolt thrower will kill about 2 saurus a turn as well, a cannon will fare a little better with 3 dead per turn. With those numbers it will take the dark riders 14 turns to make back their points, the bolt thrower and cannon need 4 turns. I think the only real shooting threat is a brass orb, organ gun/hellblaster with engineer, or possibly the new ratling gun fiends.

2) They chew up almost every enemy unit in close combat. Like I said earlier, the list saurus are not really good at handling is very short, combined with their ability to shrug off shooting that means their utility is actually above skinks when they are played well.

3) They are core that can go toe to toe with elite units. It’s not like you are choosing whether to field saurus or a bastilodon, the decision is just how many skinks you really need to poison things, which I find isn’t really that much. A core unit that not only tanks other units but wins consistently against them is too good to pass up, that allows me to match up my special and rare with anything I need to.

4) They play well to all of the 8th edition scenarios. To get points away from you they need to kill a unit that they need to get into close combat with, and that is your best area. Watchtower is awesome with saurus as you get the most use for your attacks like that, battle for pass limits lateral movement which helps saurus, dawn attack is great because they have little need to be near your general/bsb compared to other units, etc. skinks play well to bring down large things from a distance but die like flies to almost anything and panic easily. When I know that I need a solid unit to get something done turn 5 and 6 I know that saurus will be there, yeah they will probably be missing half the unit but they will not have run off the table and the half that is there is still the best half (the front rank is always the best half lol).

Supporting Units

Bastilodon – This is the best supporting unit for saurus in my opinion, for starters the initiative buff is massive for saurus, yes this goes against some other opinions but here is my reasoning. I2 saurus are now striking at the same time as Orcs, Ogres, Dwarves and such like, this changes a lot of matchups that were difficult before like savage orcs. It also now cuts the losses of an initiative test in half, and stacks very well with HoG for even better results. Also the bastilodon’s magic missile is amazing and is even a serious threat to those heavy cavalry units saurus don’t like, or the fast units that like to run away. If you keep you saurus in front of the bastilodon they provide hard cover against bolt throwers rendering your basti almost impervious to that threat.

Swarms – I don’t often play with swarms, but when I do it is because I am bringing a craptastic amount of saurus. When I combine swarms with saurus suddenly my wounds in a combat round skyrocket against high T models like the Stank or TK monsters, this crushes them and allows saurus to eat through things that normally would be very hard. Swarms M6 means that I can keep them back and to a flank and still get a charge in with saurus, and because saurus are so dang hard to kill I can always just wait and flank charge in my turn if I set up a charge for my opponent into my saurus.

Temple Guard – It may seem like they are just a different flavor of saurus but they actually fill a void due to their halberds and banner options. If I field them with a razor standard then they can actually go against those MC that saurus struggle with so much, in fact with a bastilodon supporting this block they can actually seek that combat out and win for most of the time. Or you can add a jaguar standard to give them that edge over other infantry and even surprise charge a cavalry unit, I like to roll my 3 dice one at a time so I know if the standard allowed me to get the 11” charge I needed or not.

Kroxigors – I love these guys, I don’t often field them because there are other options that give me S7 like characters, but in units 6+ they are deadly and I have almost always gotten my points out of them. These guys hunt what the saurus cannot crack open so they work very well, and with M6 and the saurus ability to hold they can get a flank charge in to finish a unit like skullcrushers which normally would eat either unit by itself.

Skinks – Actually these guys are kind of meh with saurus, not that they don’t fill a need but that their use tops off rather quickly, in my heavy saurus lists I generally don’t have more than 2 units of skinks because I don’t find I need poison shots more than that. It really helps to win deployment and to clear away some key units so I do always recommend taking some, but I don’t see why you would take more than 30 when going heavy saurus.

Cold One Riders – Great unit that provides mobility to our saurus, I do think they are over-costed but when used right they can be devastating. I almost always include some of these guys because I love cowboys and the skavenpelt banner, and when I can get a wyssans off on this unit it is lovely to see my opponents eyes as I gather up the dice for 6 S5 attacks per model. That is actually what a skullcrusher has albeit at a lower WS and I, but then half the cost as well.

Stegadon – When I take this guy I almost always take sharpened horns, I do this because his targets will always be multiple wound models, my saurus can take on everything else. So he really helps, and I don’t like the little version, S6 instead of S5 is too much of a difference for me to give up. He is also very effective against a lot of other hard to counter units like savage orc big uns and nurgle chaos warriors, with impact hits and thunderstomp he can really cause massive damage.

Razordons – Love playing with these guys although I haven’t really found them that competitive, I need to get 8 so I can really test out there utility. I will update this after I have had the chance to really try out every aspect of them in a few games.

Salamanders – these are amazing at frying large blocks and any elf, they are not necessary for a saurus heavy army as those units are already easy to deal with. But if you can kill the enemy at a distance that is always the best choice tactically, so I like to bring 1-2 just in case I need to fry some dumb deathstar unit down to size.

Terradons – Wonderful unit that does its job very well, but like I said heavy saurus armies don’t really worry about war machines, so I leave these home most of the time.

Ripperdactyls – I agree they need more initiative to really do their job, they are scary as crap though and I like the ability to chew up some high AS units with KB, or scare a character. I don’t think they do anything that saurus really need help with, but I love frenzy so I play with them from time to time.

Troglodon – Utter crap, useful at times with a good general and battle plan but not when compared in points to almost anything else.

Oldblood/Scar vets – Amazing in every way, either providing high S attacks to mitigate hard to deal with units, or providing higher I attacks to remove key obstacles for the saurus. Hard to kill and easily relied on to do almost anything, I do like to build them around my saurus game plan rather than have a stand-alone plan for them, I find my army does better as I build each thing to support and synergize with as many elements as possible.

Slann – Too many points for random benefits, I don’t need to rely on magic to crush other armies, and so investing all those points into something that sometimes provides side benefits is honestly a waste. Two skink priests with wyssans and a bastilodon is all I have power dice for and honestly 90% of the time all I want to get out, or an amber spear if I roll that lol. I know he is great at what he does, and he is very effective at times, but I have stepped away from magic a while ago and have performed so much better for it. Khaine magic brought him back and made his points effective again, but most don’t play with it so he still isn’t worth it.

Skink Chief – Useful for some things but again war machines are not scary with saurus so he isn’t that useful at other things, just lacks the punch to really effect much while not dying to most anything. I find his points better spent on a 2nd scar vet or support unit.

Skink Priest – Very useful, I bring two lvl 1s most of the time with scroll and cube, that allows me to control the key enemy magic phases of the game and shut down his buffs/hexes when I need to. It also allows me to send out a wyssans most every turn or if not that then my bastilo-blast hits something else. This maximizes power dice while still providing other utility, as I run them in my two skink skirmisher units and they provide PF coverage for up to 48” of board space. Late in the game I can run them close to some other units and 6 dice there spells, there have been plenty of times that large template was devastating to my enemies.

Spells

I’m just too tired of typing for now, basically I assume I can dispel one spell from my enemy, which is all he really has that scares me most of the time. And I can cast one spell myself, which is almost always wyssans or bastilo-blast.

 

Protector how do you feel about Engine of the Gods? I like the combo there with spear saurus as it gives me the best of both worlds as well as having the monster to give support charges.