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Tutorial Saurus Warriors.. The tactica?!

Discussion in 'Lizardmen Tactics' started by Pinktaco, May 10, 2015.

Page 8 of 12

Temple Guard

protector Active Member

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NIGHTBRINGER said: ↑

I never considered that. That could be quite the dominate magic phase.
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The only issue with this that I have found is that the EotG and lore of beast attribute only make it easier to cast, they do not add to the casting value, which means it is even easier to dispel since you need less dice to cast. I highly doubt it will allow for dominate phase unless you find a way to get a higher casting value for less dice.

Unlike the VC tactic of book of ashur plus mortis engine giving a +3 to all casting attempts, with a lvl 4 that means their minimum 1 dice successfully cast spells need between 10-13 to dispel.

protector, Jun 5, 2015

#141
Bastiladon

Bainbow Well-Known Member

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protector said: ↑

The only issue with this that I have found is that the EotG and lore of beast attribute only make it easier to cast, they do not add to the casting value, which means it is even easier to dispel since you need less dice to cast. I highly doubt it will allow for dominate phase unless you find a way to get a higher casting value for less dice.

Unlike the VC tactic of book of ashur plus mortis engine giving a +3 to all casting attempts, with a lvl 4 that means their minimum 1 dice successfully cast spells need between 10-13 to dispel.
Click to expand...

Very true, it's things like this that makes me think that the Channeling Staff is the better route.

Bainbow, Jun 5, 2015

#142
Salamander

airjamy Well-Known Member

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protector said: ↑

Ok, this is going to be a long post, and I will probably update it as I have time, but here is my stab at a saurus warriors tactica. This is my first time really trying to put words into this type of format so please feel free to pick it apart or ask for clarification.

Protector’s Saurus Warrior Tactica

Step 1: How to build a saurus unit the way the old ones meant them to be
This is not meant to offend anyone but I feel very strongly that saurus warriors are point for point the 2nd best infantry in the game and are almost exclusively under-utilized by us lizardmen generals. So to break down the awesomeness of saurus I will be going point by point on why they are so great and how to use them in the most brutally efficient way I know how.

1) Saurus Warriors are I1, this is incredibly important to remember when building units, it factors into striking order for almost everything and is probably the single most important culprit in why saurus are not fielded often. We will strike last almost every time, only great weapon wielders (who are not elves) and zombies seem to go behind us. This means two things, the first of which is that we need to prepare for losses up front, use that cold blooded mentality and count your dead while they still walk. If you think you have a “crumple” zone then increase it, field enough in each unit to absorb a massive amount of damage and still hit with as many attacks as possible. The second thing it means is that we need to play defense first and offense second, this is important when deciding if you want spears or hand weapons, hint you always want hand weapons. When the enemy is dealing out 12 wounds in the first round what is more important, saving 2 of those wounds or getting an additional 6-10 attacks? The wounds make more of a difference, those attacks hit 3-5 times and cause an unsaved wound against a T3 opponent with a 5+ AS 2-3 times. This is about the best case scenario for attacks, it gets even worse from here, especially if you didn’t build enough of a crumple zone, so at best you are getting a wash. And we make our money in the front rank with multiple PF attacks per model, supporting attacks as the rules stand now are just not as important.

2) Know who you want to fight, it is vital to anticipate how you want your saurus to match up before you build the unit, this will determine size more than anything. If you are anticipating holding off fast cavalry, chaff units, skaven, or undead units then smaller 12-18 sized units do wonderful. If you want to crush the elites of your opponent or bring down large monsters then you want 30+, a good rule of thumb is that you want 1 more rank than any elite unit you are facing. So if you were to hit 18 white lions you want 24 saurus, that match up wins for you quite well by the way, it does even better at 40 to 50. Also it is important to note that if you want to go into the teeth of an enemy deathstar saurus can still chew through it, but you need to support them with at least as much as that unit is supported. So if they have a hag with cauldron then through an equal amount of character points into your saurus before taking a charge, same with white lions that has a lvl4 caster, either save your scroll to make sure they don’t get a WS that round or add in some characters to put out more damage. I see a lot of lizardmen generals running naked saurus units and giving saurus no love when they get wiped out by a unit that was supported, pound for pound your saurus are almost the best, just don’t forget to balance the scales if needed.

That is it for building units, have a game plan and work out how you would handle different units in your head, work through some maneuvering and numbers to make sure you have as many bases as possible covered. In fact I tie my saurus character builds into how my saurus units are made up so that I can face as many different builds as possible, most of the time I don’t have a typical oldblood build because he is built to handle something saurus would struggle with alone, or to fill a void that I foresee if faced with a certain army type. And remember, saurus are core, if used properly they can wreck face on other armies’ special and rare, that alone is nuts and well worth the investment. It is actually a mental battle every time I make a list because skinks are so good but saurus are just game winners time and again for me, I love playing an army that has the best core options in the game.

Step 2: Deployment/Maneuvering and how to run up and punch fast horses in the face

Alright so the second hard to manage aspect of saurus besides low initiative is their M4, this seems to be stopping a lot of lizard generals from using them. This seems odd to me when I hear that M4 stops saurus from being useful, I see Warriors of Chaos, grave guard, dwarf infantry, empire greatswords, etc all being used to great affect and they also have M4. Even the elf troops only have +1M over saurus and they are seen as great choices, the same units that saurus can chew up and spit out easily. So time to change our way of thinking and pull out some real useful tactics to get saurus in contact, I personally think M6+ for almost our entire army has made us lazy and we see normal movement as a weakness when instead it is needed so that infantry are not OP.

1) When deploying your army you want to take terrain and the next 3 turns of movement into consideration. How are you going to position your saurus after the 2nd turn of movement, what are the best angles to ensure a charge on the unit you want them to hit? Remember that with M4 you can be across the board in 3 turns and ready to charge anything, even against fast armies if they cannot break you then you can control the board space and funnel them to a spot where you can catch them by turn 5.

2) When you set up your saurus and throughout the game please remember that perfectly symmetrical blocks are almost never the most effective. Make movement trays that allow for change or that can be extended, if your opponent shows up with 6 wide movement trays then place your saurus 8 wide, remember the front ranks attacks are key. But there are also times you need extra ranks, it is fine to give the charge to someone else so that you can maximize your tactical advantage in formations. I will let white lions charge me even if I could easily reach them just so that I can reform to my advantage, as the rules stand that +1 CR for charging is not needed, and it is always better whether pursuing or fleeing to be the unit that took a charge instead of executed. That way you can charge a fleeing unit the next turn, or rally before they charge you again, I cannot stress enough how much the movement phase is like chess, the more turns you think ahead the easier the win will be by far.

3) As you move your saurus up there are two main considerations, does the enemy want to get into close combat or not? If they are trying to avoid you then you need to focus on one thing, board control, with saurus this is so much easier than skinks. Reform as wide as possible and move up, almost every fast cavalry unit cannot do anything to saurus, even wild riders have a really hard time and unless they have a very large unit will not be able to break a smaller saurus unit. You can take DT tests or whatever as you move up, just ensure that you leave no gaps between units, if your enemy gives you a tempting charge do not take it and instead move up and continue to limit his movement. By playing this way you control his area and range of movement and can ensure you will get all units in combat in the last 2 turns, more than enough time to crush avoidance lists in combat. If your enemy does want to get into combat with you then plan out how you want it to go, some units will turn into a grind and other you can blow right through, a very few will actually make you flee but if you plan on it and have it set up in your favor then after they flee your enemy will have played into your hands and you can close a trap. For example have your oldblood behind your saurus unit when they are facing savage orc big uns, you flee they pursue into him and then lets say a steg charges in as well on your turn, or not either way they lose choppas and after your saurus rally they can charge in and chew through them. A little OT plug for Gor-Rok right now, if he was in that saurus unit he would let them stay and after choppas was done the saurus would actually win the next round and without choppas or frenzy your saurus would chew them up. And if you give up the charge to reform you can line up Gor-Rok with their shaman and he will definitely kill him before your saurus attack which downgrades their ward save, but enough of that lol.

4) Who to position against, this seems like it would be critical to your success with saurus but it really isn’t. Actually the list of who you want to avoid is stupidly short, actually I think saurus are a little OP based on how hard it is to kill them with other units. It boils down to this for me, monstrous cavalry, chaos knights, and trolls, there are a few more things that are rough but nothing that is a real show stopper, and even if the saurus can’t run through it they can tarpit until you get support or until you have mopped up the enemies other units. As I said before though, do not treat stand alone saurus units like they are elite units with characters and buffs, this seems silly to say but I see it a lot (Saurus suck, I charged into a white lion unit and they got destroyed, yeah they had an anointed and lvl4 caster who buffed them last turn, so what they are bred for war…). If you get a single buff on a saurus unit they turn into monsters, if you put a single character in that unit it suddenly crushes heavy cavalry and high AS units. Saurus can certainly run the board without help, but if you opponent is stacking things in his favor them please remember to prioritize giving your saurus some love. It may be better to get a wyssans off on a saurus unit so that the large dark rider unit with multiple characters can’t break it in a single turn instead of bastilo-blasting a dark rider chaff unit away. Best advice is to play for the end game not for the current turn.

Alright so that is the basics of saurus warriors and using them in a battle, now we will move on to specific items and address other difficulties and builds.

List of reasons why saurus should be in your army

1) They all but ignore the enemies shooting phase. It takes 14 dark riders under half range to kill 2 saurus, and a repeater bolt thrower will kill about 2 saurus a turn as well, a cannon will fare a little better with 3 dead per turn. With those numbers it will take the dark riders 14 turns to make back their points, the bolt thrower and cannon need 4 turns. I think the only real shooting threat is a brass orb, organ gun/hellblaster with engineer, or possibly the new ratling gun fiends.

2) They chew up almost every enemy unit in close combat. Like I said earlier, the list saurus are not really good at handling is very short, combined with their ability to shrug off shooting that means their utility is actually above skinks when they are played well.

3) They are core that can go toe to toe with elite units. It’s not like you are choosing whether to field saurus or a bastilodon, the decision is just how many skinks you really need to poison things, which I find isn’t really that much. A core unit that not only tanks other units but wins consistently against them is too good to pass up, that allows me to match up my special and rare with anything I need to.

4) They play well to all of the 8th edition scenarios. To get points away from you they need to kill a unit that they need to get into close combat with, and that is your best area. Watchtower is awesome with saurus as you get the most use for your attacks like that, battle for pass limits lateral movement which helps saurus, dawn attack is great because they have little need to be near your general/bsb compared to other units, etc. skinks play well to bring down large things from a distance but die like flies to almost anything and panic easily. When I know that I need a solid unit to get something done turn 5 and 6 I know that saurus will be there, yeah they will probably be missing half the unit but they will not have run off the table and the half that is there is still the best half (the front rank is always the best half lol).

Supporting Units

Bastilodon – This is the best supporting unit for saurus in my opinion, for starters the initiative buff is massive for saurus, yes this goes against some other opinions but here is my reasoning. I2 saurus are now striking at the same time as Orcs, Ogres, Dwarves and such like, this changes a lot of matchups that were difficult before like savage orcs. It also now cuts the losses of an initiative test in half, and stacks very well with HoG for even better results. Also the bastilodon’s magic missile is amazing and is even a serious threat to those heavy cavalry units saurus don’t like, or the fast units that like to run away. If you keep you saurus in front of the bastilodon they provide hard cover against bolt throwers rendering your basti almost impervious to that threat.

Swarms – I don’t often play with swarms, but when I do it is because I am bringing a craptastic amount of saurus. When I combine swarms with saurus suddenly my wounds in a combat round skyrocket against high T models like the Stank or TK monsters, this crushes them and allows saurus to eat through things that normally would be very hard. Swarms M6 means that I can keep them back and to a flank and still get a charge in with saurus, and because saurus are so dang hard to kill I can always just wait and flank charge in my turn if I set up a charge for my opponent into my saurus.

Temple Guard – It may seem like they are just a different flavor of saurus but they actually fill a void due to their halberds and banner options. If I field them with a razor standard then they can actually go against those MC that saurus struggle with so much, in fact with a bastilodon supporting this block they can actually seek that combat out and win for most of the time. Or you can add a jaguar standard to give them that edge over other infantry and even surprise charge a cavalry unit, I like to roll my 3 dice one at a time so I know if the standard allowed me to get the 11” charge I needed or not.

Kroxigors – I love these guys, I don’t often field them because there are other options that give me S7 like characters, but in units 6+ they are deadly and I have almost always gotten my points out of them. These guys hunt what the saurus cannot crack open so they work very well, and with M6 and the saurus ability to hold they can get a flank charge in to finish a unit like skullcrushers which normally would eat either unit by itself.

Skinks – Actually these guys are kind of meh with saurus, not that they don’t fill a need but that their use tops off rather quickly, in my heavy saurus lists I generally don’t have more than 2 units of skinks because I don’t find I need poison shots more than that. It really helps to win deployment and to clear away some key units so I do always recommend taking some, but I don’t see why you would take more than 30 when going heavy saurus.

Cold One Riders – Great unit that provides mobility to our saurus, I do think they are over-costed but when used right they can be devastating. I almost always include some of these guys because I love cowboys and the skavenpelt banner, and when I can get a wyssans off on this unit it is lovely to see my opponents eyes as I gather up the dice for 6 S5 attacks per model. That is actually what a skullcrusher has albeit at a lower WS and I, but then half the cost as well.

Stegadon – When I take this guy I almost always take sharpened horns, I do this because his targets will always be multiple wound models, my saurus can take on everything else. So he really helps, and I don’t like the little version, S6 instead of S5 is too much of a difference for me to give up. He is also very effective against a lot of other hard to counter units like savage orc big uns and nurgle chaos warriors, with impact hits and thunderstomp he can really cause massive damage.

Razordons – Love playing with these guys although I haven’t really found them that competitive, I need to get 8 so I can really test out there utility. I will update this after I have had the chance to really try out every aspect of them in a few games.

Salamanders – these are amazing at frying large blocks and any elf, they are not necessary for a saurus heavy army as those units are already easy to deal with. But if you can kill the enemy at a distance that is always the best choice tactically, so I like to bring 1-2 just in case I need to fry some dumb deathstar unit down to size.

Terradons – Wonderful unit that does its job very well, but like I said heavy saurus armies don’t really worry about war machines, so I leave these home most of the time.

Ripperdactyls – I agree they need more initiative to really do their job, they are scary as crap though and I like the ability to chew up some high AS units with KB, or scare a character. I don’t think they do anything that saurus really need help with, but I love frenzy so I play with them from time to time.

Troglodon – Utter crap, useful at times with a good general and battle plan but not when compared in points to almost anything else.

Oldblood/Scar vets – Amazing in every way, either providing high S attacks to mitigate hard to deal with units, or providing higher I attacks to remove key obstacles for the saurus. Hard to kill and easily relied on to do almost anything, I do like to build them around my saurus game plan rather than have a stand-alone plan for them, I find my army does better as I build each thing to support and synergize with as many elements as possible.

Slann – Too many points for random benefits, I don’t need to rely on magic to crush other armies, and so investing all those points into something that sometimes provides side benefits is honestly a waste. Two skink priests with wyssans and a bastilodon is all I have power dice for and honestly 90% of the time all I want to get out, or an amber spear if I roll that lol. I know he is great at what he does, and he is very effective at times, but I have stepped away from magic a while ago and have performed so much better for it. Khaine magic brought him back and made his points effective again, but most don’t play with it so he still isn’t worth it.

Skink Chief – Useful for some things but again war machines are not scary with saurus so he isn’t that useful at other things, just lacks the punch to really effect much while not dying to most anything. I find his points better spent on a 2nd scar vet or support unit.

Skink Priest – Very useful, I bring two lvl 1s most of the time with scroll and cube, that allows me to control the key enemy magic phases of the game and shut down his buffs/hexes when I need to. It also allows me to send out a wyssans most every turn or if not that then my bastilo-blast hits something else. This maximizes power dice while still providing other utility, as I run them in my two skink skirmisher units and they provide PF coverage for up to 48” of board space. Late in the game I can run them close to some other units and 6 dice there spells, there have been plenty of times that large template was devastating to my enemies.

Spells

I’m just too tired of typing for now, basically I assume I can dispel one spell from my enemy, which is all he really has that scares me most of the time. And I can cast one spell myself, which is almost always wyssans or bastilo-blast.
Click to expand...

Certainly not a bad writeup, but you should do a lot to make it readable with headings/colours/quotations/cursives. Look at some Tactica from Scalanex and try to copy his style, it really helps in making it clear what you mean. It is not just what you are saying, it is also how you present it.

airjamy, Jun 5, 2015

#143

Scalenex likes this.
Slann

NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

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Bainbow said: ↑

Still, I'll give it a shot anyway. I avoid tournaments because the games are always so tiny for my tastes, so I have nothing to lose. I shall bring back word of my success or failure!
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NIGHTBRINGER said: ↑

Sounds like a plan!
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Bainbow said: ↑

Wish me luck, Chief.
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"You're all clear kid, now let's blow this thing and go home"

NIGHTBRINGER, Jun 6, 2015

#144

n810 likes this.
Skar-Veteran

Pinktaco Vessel of the Old Ones Staff Member

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@protector - could you elaborate on the DoC Nurgle issue? How do you do against the filthiest filth?

Pinktaco, Jun 8, 2015

#145
Temple Guard

protector Active Member

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Here is a pretty typical list that I will run, as you can see I focus on 3 combat units and rely on very little skink support and no war machine hunting. If the opponent has cannons then I run my characters in the cold one unit, if not I run one of them in the temple guard, gor-rok is almost always in the saurus unit. If you are not allowed special characters then tool out a scar vet to go into your saurus unit.

Oldblood w/Cold One, GW
Armor of Destiny
Dawnstone
Other Tricksters Shard

Oldblood w/Cold One
Piranha Blade
Stegadon Helm
Luckstone
Ironcurse Icon

Scar Vet w/Cold One BSB, LA, SH, SP
Skavenpelt Banner

Gor-Rok

Skink Priest lvl1 Beast
Dispel Scroll

Skink Priest lvl1 Beast
Cube of Darkness

40x Saurus w/FC, w/hws

11x Skinks w/javelins

11x Skinks w/javelins

20x Temple Guard CH/ST, Jaguar Standard

9x Cold One Calvary ST

Bastilodon w/Arc of Chotec

Ok, so some of the worst filth I have come across for DoC include Kairos and Epidemius with another nurgle herald. Against lizardmen Kairos is going to certainly have pit of shades, and many other very nasty spells to throw out, combined with epidemius tally we would need to control the game almost from turn 1 or else it is going to get out of hand fast.

But at that many points put into non-combat characters they are going to have a very hard time against a lizardmen army if we can get in their face. Kairos is most effective at 5 dicing one spell, +6 to cast means he has a great chance to beat a normal dispel, and then to 2 dice other spells. My game plan is based on dice rolls to either spend all my dispel dice on the one big spell (pit of shades usually) or scroll it, this does mean he needs to get close to me and with his stats I can throw anything in my army at him so that is risky.

Plaguebearers are my personal favorite to use with my DoC army, they are tough and can be buffed to really either stick around or do damage. But they are not on par with saurus warriors, and with character support their daemonic instability will quickly reduce them. Honestly I haven't found much of an issue with a "Nurgle wall" my character will kill the herald first then the unit goes to town. temple guard chew up anything in that army, CoRs with skavenpelt throw out an immense amount of damage and take almost none in return which makes CR overwhelming, and saurus are better and cheaper and in horde formation overwhelm nurgle minions.

So although Nurgle is my favorite to use I do not find that it is highly effective against lizardmen, the most dangerous things are really the non-nurgle items in the army. But even then if the opponent doesn't keep Kairos away from my skinks or deal with them as a priority they usually will bring him down before the end of the game. Or a long charge from a well positioned unit to get him early and limit his effectiveness. So my take on this is that for DoC we need to focus on character hunting, overall their units die to ours and we just need to make sure the match-ups are right. By the way hover for plague drones is much easier to deal with than flying because they have at most a 10" range and our CoRs can out manuever them.

Last edited: Jun 9, 2015

protector, Jun 8, 2015

#146
Bastiladon

Bainbow Well-Known Member

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That's a lot of melee heroes. I myself only have one, all the other heroes are wizards. That said, my oldblood is kitted like hell, a respectable offense but a massive defense. Attacks would need to be at least S7 to reliably do damage to him, not counting buffs that my many wizards are happy to throw at him.

Bainbow, Jun 9, 2015

#147
Skink Chief

Mr Phat 9th Age Army Support

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Well if it works for you I shouldn't stand stubborn and not at least try it out.
Especially not when the list is ETC-legal.

I must admit that I am very sceptical, but I'll challenge my mate and his nurgle wall with this.

Couple of questions first though, which are made from the view: "This list is intended for tournament use, and is not tailored for nurgle armies"

THE LIST

1. What do you do after your Scroll and cube are gone?
Is the goal to have reached combat at this point?
The obvious way to deal with you would be to stand back and get as much damage through spells through as possible.
Meaning chaffing you up and overpower the skinks. This obviously doesn't happen to you, and i'd like to know why

2. How do you run the cold ones? (how wide)
2.1 Are they rushing forward or waiting on your other units?

3. Confused about the bastiladon, is the the Arc of SOTEK or the Solar Engine with the beam of CHOTEC?

4. Regarding your CoR outmaneuvering hovering units, what do you mean by that exactly?
Refused flank?
Hover units have the charge-advantage on most things, that is the general problem with them in my view.

5. How do deal with chaff? Cowboys just plunges into everything he can get his jaws on?

THE META

1. At said tournaments: what other matchups does this list run into?

2. Is it a "Run everything towards the middle and throw dice approach" or are you guys also measuring angles and inches as if your life counted on it?

3. Are your meta "locally" or "internationally" based?
Locally being: - you guys only play guys from your own community
Internationally being - players from your community often play players during international events, like the ETC. (in other words: are your meta ever engaging other metas?)

That should do!
Sorry for the inquisition but I need to know how you play this to understand how it could work
Must admit that im happy to field my saurus again!

Mr Phat, Jun 9, 2015

#148
Skar-Veteran

Pinktaco Vessel of the Old Ones Staff Member

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Just be aware of gor rok

Pinktaco, Jun 9, 2015

#149

Mr Phat likes this.
Temple Guard

protector Active Member

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Phatmotha-phucka said: ↑

Well if it works for you I shouldn't stand stubborn and not at least try it out.
Especially not when the list is ETC-legal.

I must admit that I am very sceptical, but I'll challenge my mate and his nurgle wall with this.

Couple of questions first though, which are made from the view: "This list is intended for tournament use, and is not tailored for nurgle armies"

THE LIST

1. What do you do after your Scroll and cube are gone?
Is the goal to have reached combat at this point?
The obvious way to deal with you would be to stand back and get as much damage through spells through as possible.
Meaning chaffing you up and overpower the skinks. This obviously doesn't happen to you, and i'd like to know why

2. How do you run the cold ones? (how wide)
2.1 Are they rushing forward or waiting on your other units?

3. Confused about the bastiladon, is the the Arc of SOTEK or the Solar Engine with the beam of CHOTEC?

4. Regarding your CoR outmaneuvering hovering units, what do you mean by that exactly?
Refused flank?
Hover units have the charge-advantage on most things, that is the general problem with them in my view.

5. How do deal with chaff? Cowboys just plunges into everything he can get his jaws on?

THE META

1. At said tournaments: what other matchups does this list run into?

2. Is it a "Run everything towards the middle and throw dice approach" or are you guys also measuring angles and inches as if your life counted on it?

3. Are your meta "locally" or "internationally" based?
Locally being: - you guys only play guys from your own community
Internationally being - players from your community often play players during international events, like the ETC. (in other words: are your meta ever engaging other metas?)

That should do!
Sorry for the inquisition but I need to know how you play this to understand how it could work
Must admit that im happy to field my saurus again!
Click to expand...

Thank you very much for keeping an open mind, I don't mind being sent to the inquisition at all and in fact enjoy answering any and all questions, it makes it twice as much fun when someone like you is actually willing to give my words weight and try it out for yourself. I look forward to a battle report for that match up

The List:
1) So a scroll or cube will essentially end a magic phase for someone, if they cast their big gun up front then I either send all my dice (on a low attempt for them) or scroll it (for a higher attempt) and that means if I scroll it then I have a lot more dice than they do left to dispel. Or if they try to trickle cast spells then I weather the damage for the 1st and 2nd usually and send all my dice against whichever lower level spell seems the most dangerous. This may seem hard but when I already grossly overpower an army in combat due to point allocations I can take magic missiles in the face and keep coming with almost no worries. If I am able to dice dispel 1 round of his big spell, I can scroll another and cube a 3rd, that means I am essentially garauranteed safe passage from any really harmful spells until turn 4. That means I have 3-4 turns in which I can limit his movement and set up my charges, I have also found that in a game there is almost always going to be a magic phase that doesn't have much for winds of magic, if that happens even better. The way I avoid being chaffed is to mutually support each unit with another close block, and if it looks like they are going to try delay tactics then I keep my skinks behind my saurus or to the side so that they cannot be easily targeted, that allows my saurus to ignore PF for pursuing. And I can even bring up the bastilodon to hit a chaff unit and usually chew it up with thunderstomp, keeping him in the combat line allows for passive buffing and good targets to bastilo-blast.

2) This is entirely dependent on my enemy, if they bring any type of cannon I run them 12 wide lol, it may seem silly but that denies a 2nd casualty from bolt throwers and cannons, which is really helpful. In fact when the opponent knows at best he can kill a single cold one usually he doesn't even try to hit the unit. If I am facing an army with little to no war machines or no rank penetrating attacks then I like to run them 7 wide for maximum attacks. I am not afraid of taking a few DT tests if it means I line up to my advantage or deny shooting attacks the ability to take out multiple models.
2.1) Generally they will either control a flank and run up or range just ahead of the center line, with character support they are a mini deathstar so I don't worry about anything hitting into them. I'm not usually hesitant to send them at a long charge due to them already being ahead of the saurus, so if they fail them I still maintain my battle line and keep flank support, I also run temple guards with swiftstride to get that long charge off as well.

3) Sorry, I almost always go for beam of chotec, with only skink priests I have the dice to go nuts with him and still attempt wyssans so his blast is highly effective and fairly often I have gotten IF on a key cast with no downside to him.

4) Hover units have the charge range advantage but as you can see from my list I would be ok with him charging into anything but skinks, every other unit will crush those drones. Otherwise they have a 2" movement range advantage over saurus, my CoRs can march 16" and so greatly outmanuever them on a flank by turn 2. By the way, I would almost always rather take a charge than give one if my opponent is wanting to get into a cc fight, I only lose 1 CR by giving it up and it provides me the opportunity to charge a fleeing unit next turn or rally before I get charged.

5) with skink priests providing control over PF I can move my saurus with charges and just re-position, I can also afford to take a flank or rear charge with saurus from chaff units as it will essentially just give me extra CR. So if they try to redirect me I just move forward and reform, charge in and reform from victory (when applicable), or send out 1-2 characters to deal with all the chaff. I have a hay day with other lizard players that want to use skink clouds, their poison shots do very little to my army and one defensive old blood racks up twice his points by chasing those units all game. I have before put gor-rok in with a skink unit and used him to clear chaff and then flank charge afterwards, also temple guard with swiftstride greatly affects my enemies ability to chaff me.

The Meta:
1) I play this sort of list against a lot of elf armies, WoC, VC, and ogres, sometimes I see O&G, dwarves, skaven etc. With DE armies I have run against avoidance lists and witch elf deathstar lists, this does great with both, I crush HE lists fairly easily as they just don't have the combat units that can stand up to saurus, let alone 4 saurus characters in combat units.

2) Measure angles and inches with a passion, I have said before that I play the movement phase like I do chess, I will be measuring and calculating angles and statistics for something that might happen in 2-3 turns from now. When in doubt I also check with my opponent, if you move to X then this unit can see you correct? etc, otherwise it is pretty cuthroat and if you are off by a 1/16th of an inch you don't get the charge.

3) Almost all local in this meta, but I am in the US military so I actually move to different metas fairly often, each one is usually a little different and I need to learn or adjust but in the end I can field saurus and win.

Sorry for the long winded answers, I hope they help, my current meta is limited but I hope to return to international play soon.

protector, Jun 9, 2015

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Good sir, those answer met and overdid expectations.
And dont apologogize for long answers, we thank you for in-depth explanations around here

I think I get it.
While still skeptical in how this will work out for me I am just thrilled to put my boys back on the table.

In any case: Im gon get me some Gore'Rocko'Saurus!

A couple followups though

- You say CoR marches 16'', but you do mean 14'' right?

- Still worried about them meeting high armored units like demigryphs.
I did the math yesterday and on equal points Demigryphs kill saurus over in dozens (38 saurus vs 7 demigryphs = as it is the biggest unit allowed for each under ETC)
That was without gor-rok though.
What is your experience with the Empire +1 across the board setup?
S4 does nothing to that, so is it just "Take the charge and grind" until you can add a Cowboy to the combat?

- How do you place Gor-rok?
My guess: on the corner of the horde:
1. for minimal return attacks
2. If he is out of combat you make way to the edge of the other unit.

This however negates the use of his shield.
So I guess my question is: Can he take the charges coming at him? T6 is great but with no Wardsave 2W is easily nited, and then you main block loses the all-important stubborn.

Mr Phat, Jun 10, 2015

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Hmm.. I wasn't aware the Etc rules had been updated. Have they always allowed special characters? At any point we're not hit that bad if you're playing with saurus warriors.

How does an Empire list look with the 2015 ETC rules Mr phat? From what I can understand you can have 1 tank, 1 big unit of demigryphs and sprinkle it with s couple of great cannons. Or 1 tank, 2 units of 4 demigryphs and a couple of cannons.

Pinktaco, Jun 10, 2015

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Slann

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Phatmotha-phucka said: ↑

Still worried about them meeting high armored units like demigryphs.
I did the math yesterday and on equal points Demigryphs kill saurus over in dozens (38 saurus vs 7 demigryphs = as it is the biggest unit allowed for each under ETC)
Click to expand...

Demigryphs are a bad match up for Saurus, so send a cowboy or two their way!

NIGHTBRINGER, Jun 10, 2015

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NIGHTBRINGER said: ↑

Demigryphs are a bad match up for Saurus, so send a cowboy or two their way!
Click to expand...

An OB with AoD and Dawnstone will only take 0,18 wound from the demigryphs - should be fairly safe ^^
0,375 if you don't have the ward or dawnstone (armour reduced to 4+ due to armour piercing D.

Pinktaco, Jun 10, 2015

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Pinktaco said: ↑

Hmm.. I wasn't aware the Etc rules had been updated. Have they always allowed special characters? At any point we're not hit that bad if you're playing with saurus warriors.

How does an Empire list look with the 2015 ETC rules Mr phat? From what I can understand you can have 1 tank, 1 big unit of demigryphs and sprinkle it with s couple of great cannons. Or 1 tank, 2 units of 4 demigryphs and a couple of cannons.
Click to expand...

ETC have allowed SC's for about a year now so still fairly new!

The empire restricts are utter B_ _ _ _ _ _ T imo.
The last tournament I faced again a veteran player who won the whole thing.

3 fairly size units of Inner Circle knights
3 Cannons (backed with master engineer)
1 Hellblaster
1 steam tank
1 unit of 4-5 Demigryphs
1 Light wizard (lvl4 I think)
1 Heavens wizard
1 Pegasus fella

Thats how I recall it at least.

I dont doubt that this guy, who is deemed as one of the best players in DK (to my knowledge), would have steamrolled me with any army, but this particular matchup was VERY HARD to deal with when you run skink cloud + cold one bus.
The skinks was no thread to him as I couldnt circle around his knights (no pun intended) and the cold one bus was shot to pieces before it could do what it should.
I had one glorious moment a la The Last Samurai where my bus got pummeled down to the 3 cowboys and the unit champ.

I made all of my cowboys leave the "unit" and went straight through his lines, between the gaps, to head for the cannons, the champion did the same.
Sadly, just like in the movie they all got shot down inches before they hit home....but I felt good, I saw him sweat for a moment!

I actually expect that the list @protector presents would have done way better in this matchup.

Mr Phat, Jun 10, 2015

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The good thing about the knights is that they are fairly useless after charge. 1 unit of demigryphs can be managed by an OB, but it get's kinda more annoying when more than one unit of demis are present lol

Sounds nasty either way.

Pinktaco, Jun 10, 2015

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Pinktaco said: ↑

The good thing about the knights is that they are fairly useless after charge.
Click to expand...

Not against MSU skinks!
*Charge*
*Break*
*Reform*
*Charge*
*Break*
*Reform*

Mr Phat, Jun 10, 2015

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True, but against saurus warriors it just becomes a pillow fight.

Pinktaco, Jun 10, 2015

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Yesterday the saurus got more renown (Warning long post)
A person (currently my nemesis, since i have lost to him like all our matches)from my club was up for a match, the previous losses was against a chaos legion list, which had a lot of chariots including khorne chariot cannons -.-, but yesterday he fielded a hard list, but as it turned out, beatable WoC list.

His list was 2500 pts WoC:
Tzeentch deamonprince with lore of metal and some things i dont remember.
BSB on deamonic mount 1+/3++ (reroll 1)
Festus
Throgg

24 nurgle chaos warriors with halberds
3 skullcrushers (no champ)
4 skullcrushers (no champ)
6 trolls

My list was 2493 pts lizard (surprise):
Oldblood (CO, GW, dawnstone, tricksters helm, OTS)
Oldblood (CO, GW, AoD)
Scar-Vet (BSB skavenpeltbanner, spear, shield, CO)
Gor-rok
Skink priest (lvl1 beast, scroll)
Skink priest (lvl1 beast, cube)

43 SW (banner, musician)
2x10 skirmishers
24 templeguard (jaguar banner [swiftstride], musician)
9 coldone riders
1 bastilodon

This is not supposed to be a battle report, but a little explanation is needed

We played the scenario where you deploy diagonally and there was a big centrepiece of impassable terrain [rock], which was crucial for my deployment… he got to go first and deployed his 4 man skullcrushers and trolls (with throgg) at my right side of the rock and his nurgle men and other skullC on the left side of the rock, bsb and DP behind to be able to react to things… anyway i deployed my big block with gor-rok directly in front (13 inches) from his warriors with my temple guard (the 3 saurus chars was here since COC was in reserve -.-) in front of the skullC…

He got to go first and wanted to charge SW with everything starting with Warriors, then SkullC(3) and the DP… there where no room for DP so he got failed charge … in combat gorrok took the challenge against the unit champ of the warriors and killing him.. I lost like 14 SW but held…

My turn. I charge with temple guard into flank of skullC (3)… gorrok challenges festus, temple guard block kills two skullC , 10 SW die (at this point 2 WOC has lost their ”life”) I thought it looked bad combat ends even in CR so still frenzy…

His turn. He charges with skullC4 (TG), DP(SW) and BSB(SW) (I was like – I am going to die now) but that didn’t happen he flukes his attacks different places and one of my oldbloods kills two SkullC(4) and I end up with 2 SW plus gorrok (1 wound left) and yet again an even combat…

My next turn. I IF wyssans on my temple guard and they go to the fray since his warriors only are in base contact with gorrok (who challenges the BSB) then they cant hit and the DP kills the remaining 2 SW and my TG killing the remaining skullC(2) and 1 from the first unit I generate enough CR to win by 5 and then his warriors flee (bsb and DP hold but TG follows and when he rolled 12 on flee (I was like im not gonna catch that) but guess what 1,6,6 on my jaguar banner and dead warriors…

(rules question: this was a big combat and between his WoC and my TG was the DP will i be able to run them down since i chose to follow and beating his roll eventhough the DP is in the way i can support with a painting if needed)

Anyway he Conceeds here with throgg not even close to combat… thanks skinks and with 2 oldbloods with GW infront of his DP.

Afterthoughts of the game was (for my point of view) is that we both had bad rolls at crucial times and good rolls at crucial times I do not think the dice good favoured one of us…
WOW Gor-Rok is amazing especially with the rerolls to hit and PF on 5 and 6 its just amazing in one round against festus he made 6 attacks even though he hits on 5+… the aggressive deployment of my saurus was not expected of him and I think it took my nemesis by surprise and thus forcing him to react and therefore making bad decisions.

Should I reequip my oldbloods I have 7 leftover points? which also can go to another skink… I have used 633 on core.

Elholm, Jun 10, 2015

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Reequip OBs so one have AoD and dawnstone and another have talisman of preservation and light armour. The trickster helm is interesting, but there's not much in forcing rerolls on 2-3+ <.<

Concerning bad rolls: you always have to remember that yes every once in a while it happens to you, but as you mentioned it certainly also happens to the opponent. A lot of people who complain about bad rolls tend to forget about the amazing rolls

Pinktaco, Jun 10, 2015

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