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8th Ed. The BEST close combat units in all of Warhammer.

Discussion in 'Other Armies Discussion' started by NIGHTBRINGER, Sep 27, 2020.

  1. Killer Angel
    Slann

    Killer Angel Prophet of the Stars Staff Member

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    Trust me, you are not alone.
     
  2. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

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    Match time! In this battle we pit Monstrous Cavalry vs. Monstrous Cavalry. Skullcrushers of Khorne vs. Demigryph Knights!

    Key rules in play:
    • Skullcrushers: Brass Behmoth, Mark of Khorne (Frenzy)
    • Demigryph Knights: Armor Piercing (Demigryph only)
    upload_2020-10-18_10-50-22.png
    upload_2020-10-18_10-51-1.png

    That's right, the tournament's prohibitive favourite have lost (and not the expected loss that still awaits them in a later matchup)!!! :jawdrop::jawdrop:

    What can be said? A Skullcrusher is clearly better than a Demigrpyh Knight, but 5 Skullcrushers are clearly not better than 7 Demigryph Knights. Their initiatives balanced out, with the Skullcrusher (rider) going first, followed by Demigryph, followed by the Inner Circle Knight and lastly the Juggernaut. The Skullcrusher rider+mount have the superior weapon skill, but the Demigryph's Armour Piercing special rule helps counterbalance some of that. Per model the Skullcrushers boast more attacks, but with the extra models the Demigryphs could field, they ended up with more total attacks. Of course the Skullcrusher rider is S5 and the Inner Circle Knight is only S4, but the Demigryphs have a larger pool of wounds.

    Since the matchup was quite close and there were a few times where a Demigryph model was left standing on a partial wound that was rounded up, I decided to do some further analysis. Also, the Demigryphs were at a slight points advantage (+16). As such, I ran the numbers again but this time 3 Skullcrushers (244pts) versus 4 Demigryphs (242pts). This matchup was razor close, with the Demigryphs losing the first 3 rounds by a score of 1 and making their break test. However, in the end the Demigryphs prevailed again, but with only 0.9 wounds remaining. To be honest, if I was looking at this alternate matchup alone I would have declared it a draw (based on the Demigryphs surviving on partial wounds + losing the opening rounds). However, in conjunction with primary matchup detailed above (as well as some "what if the Demigryph had died on the partial wound" scenarios), I am reasonably certain that it is fair to declare the Demigryphs the deserving winners.

    upload_2020-10-17_18-19-24.png
    upload_2020-10-17_18-20-28.png
    upload_2020-10-17_18-21-0.png

    So the take away from this matchup is that the advantages the Skullcrushers' have on the Demigryphs, are not worth the 20 point cost differential (75+3 versus 58) between the two models. Mind you this might only be matchup specific, we won't know for certain until we get more results in and compare how they do against similar opponents. What happens when the Demigryph's armour piercing is of no use? What happens when something has an initiative below that of the Juggernauts? Maybe the Demigryph's will reign supreme or maybe they won't, but regardless, in this contest they are the victors!

    The tournament just got a whole lot more interesting! The top spot is up for grabs. If the Demigryphs can beat the Skullcrushers, than who else can? I find it quite exciting!

    Are the Warriors of Chaos as OP as people have suggested? The Chaos Warriors were bested and now the mighty Skullcrushers too!

    I guess that is enough babbling. Updated table:


    upload_2020-10-17_18-29-43.png

    And as always... Thoughts? Concerns? Discussion!! :)

     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2020
  3. Lizards of Renown
    Skink Priest

    Lizards of Renown Well-Known Member

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    WOW

    That is up there for biggest upset of tournament!

    More tomorrow.
     
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  4. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

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    Time for another battle. Black Guard vs. Hammerers. Will it be hammer time?


    Key rules in play:
    • Black Guard: ASF, Murderous Prowess, Stubborn
    • Hammerers: Stubborn
    upload_2020-10-17_22-52-30.png

    Originally I had the Hammerers in horde formation as well, but they actually fare slightly worse (wiped out one round earlier and the Black Guard have 11.4 wounds remaining). It makes little difference though. Here is the alternate formation matchup...

    upload_2020-10-17_22-51-12.png

    I can sum this one up pretty easily... the Black Guard strike before the Hammerers. It's as simple as that. I looked into it a bit further, per model they have the same number of attacks, but the Hammerers actually have a better unsaved wounding percentage per attack...
    • Hammerers have a 41.7% chance of causing an unsaved wound per attack
    • Black Guard have a 36.5% chance of causing an unsaved wound per attack
    However, since the Black Guard get to strike first, the Hammerers always have less models attacking back, which overcomes the small advantage they have in causing unsaved wounds per attack.

    The Black Guard are performing pretty well against medium-armoured opponents (5+, 4+). It's pretty safe to project that they should be able to defeat the Executioners and the White Lions as well. They definitely won't be finishing last, as I had predicted earlier on. No chance in that happening now. I can't see the Arachnarok pulling off multiple wins. As for the Hammerers, they are floundering a bit. They'll usually take a fair chunk out of their opponent, but struggle to pull off the victories (1 win in 3 matches).. at least so far.

    upload_2020-10-17_23-4-39.png


    And as always... Thoughts? Concerns? Discussion!! :)
     
  5. Killer Angel
    Slann

    Killer Angel Prophet of the Stars Staff Member

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    WOW! That was intense, and unexpected. But demigriph are no joke, it was a battle between two strong units.
     
  6. Killer Angel
    Slann

    Killer Angel Prophet of the Stars Staff Member

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    Pretty much what i was expecting, for this exact reason
     
  7. Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl
    OldBlood

    Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl Well-Known Member

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    That is extremely surprising, as I always thought Demigryphs were an aggressive tank unit that relied almost purely on the attacks of the Demigryphs and their 1+ save to win a fight, compared to the all-out aggression of the Skullcrushers.

    My one question is that given the Demigryphs unit is 6 wide, one will be positioned behind in the rear rank. Given that we’ve agreed before that with Monstrous Cavalry only the riders can support as per normal Cavalry (but get all their attacks thanks to being Monstrous), surely that would mean the Demigryphs only get 18 attacks at the start rather than 21?
     
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  8. Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl
    OldBlood

    Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl Well-Known Member

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    Concerning this one, if the Dark Elves deploy in Horde and the Hammerers deploy 5 wide, surely only 7 Black Guard can attack in each rank (5 in base-to-base and 2 through corner-to-corner), rather than the full 10?
     
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  9. Lizards of Renown
    Skink Priest

    Lizards of Renown Well-Known Member

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    And this a fantastic example of something which many people (including me) don't think with off the bat when thinking of what match-ups I want to create during a battle to have a victory.

    You don't actually have to outclass the unit in question to be able to win, only be able to hold out until your aggregate wounds have reduced the combat potential to the point where you will win.

    In this example, the Skullcrushers were wiped out which is saying something really. Meaning that it isn't an obvious whitewash victory, but proves the point that superior numbers is a definite stable datum. This adds to the concepts that we are highlighting with the formation being a key point as your superior numbers should be used in horde/a wider formation if you need to have the most attacks and a deep formation if you need to hold out while you grind down the ability to strike you back.

    For me, the Demi-gryph Knights are turning out to be a hidden gem.

    On the Skullcrushers, they are undeniably still at the top end of deadly units. No unit is unbeatable given the right resources and gotten into a fight that has been thought through.

    I will say this on the WoC point, oft times they are joined by some kind of WoC Character (Lord/Hero) and this is also a matter of contention for me as their characters out-strip others.

    Maybe we can do a match-up of special non-named characters after this @NIGHTBRINGER ? That would be fun.
     
  10. Lizards of Renown
    Skink Priest

    Lizards of Renown Well-Known Member

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    Did you factor in re-rolling missed hits because of the better Dark Elf initiative and ASF? I can't tell from the calculations...
     
  11. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

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    It has to be one of the biggest upsets thus far! A good solid hard fought battle!

    Excellent catch! Looks like that was a copy and paste error on my part from a previous matchup. You are completely correct that at 6 wide, the mount attacks would need to be reduced. The unit formation for the Demigryphs should read 7 wide. With the Skullcrushers optimally formed up at 5 wide, the Demigryphs can get all 7 models into base-to-base contact. I have gone back and updated the table. Thank you for identifying the error and bringing it to my attention. With so many numbers and tables flying about, I'm susceptible to bungling things up, so I rely on you guys to catch those errors that slip through and keep us on course!


    That is correct.

    So in the first round (before the Black Guard reform to 7 wide), their attacks break down as follows:
    • 14 attacks from the front rank (7 models in base-to-base, 2 attacks a piece)
    • 7 supporting attacks from the second rank
    • 6 supporting attacks from their third rank (horde, but they only have 6 models in that rank)
    So we arrive at 14+7+6 = 27 attacks, which is what was used in the calculations. This was the primary reason for the Hammerers deploying 5-wide, to reduce the number of Black Guard attacks coming in. When they were deployed horde vs. horde, the Black Guard were able to put forth their full complement of 36 attacks (20+10+6).

    In rounds 2 and 3 (where the Black Guard are now formed up 7 wide), they have enough models to fill two ranks and get 14 attacks from the front rank and 7 supporting attacks for a total of 21.

    Finally, in the fourth round, there are only 3 Dwarfs remaining, so only 5 Black Guard are in base-to-base. So they get 10 attacks from the front rank and have four models in the second rank for a further 4 supporting attacks, bringing their output to 14 attacks.

    Very true. This is often how Vampire Counts win the day. They grind you down through numbers (and healing those numbers).

    As long as you can avoid breaking, numbers can win you the day.

    They have definitely done quite well for themselves.

    I'd also add the Black Guard and Chaos Trolls to that list. For those that didn't expect it, the Witch Elves would also qualify (but I've seen too many battle reports featuring them shredding the opposition, so they have been no surprise to me)

    It will be interesting to see which units can carry their momentum forward into the deeper rounds of the tournament, and which ones drop off.

    True, but they also outstrip most others in terms of points cost as well (just as we saw with the Skullcrushers).

    While I often put my BSB in a unit, my lord (either Hortennse or the DP) are always out flying solo.

    That could be interesting. It wouldn't be perfectly balanced in terms of points cost (because there is no point in fielding anything but the most optimized variants of a lord from an army, and they will optimize at different points levels).

    Also, it would be more interesting to have a group of people come up with the lords. Each of us could pick a couple of armies, and come up with their greatest champion. I've got some solid/interesting builds for WoC, Lizardmen and TK.

    I can probably accurately tell you who will win the top prize though, but after that, it becomes interesting.

    Yes I did. With both the units sporting WS5, they would normally be hitting each other on 4's (50% of the time). However, due to re-rolls the Black Guard are hitting the Hammerers 75% of the time.
     
  12. Lizards of Renown
    Skink Priest

    Lizards of Renown Well-Known Member

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    I was expecting good things from both of those units to be honest. The Witch Elves are surprising as I thought that their intense lack of armour and low toughness would be a huge problem. Turns out their low cost means that they earn themselves more wounds as a unit which is turning out to be pretty effective.

    Sounds good! I'd like to have something waiting in the wings to switch to after this as it's a good one!
     
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  13. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

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    I mean there are several units in this tourney with 5+ armour, which isn't that much better than no armor at all, since the majority of our contestants are S5. In a real game setting, their armour would definitely be more useful.

    Consider all the units in the competition against which 5+, 6+ or no armour at all makes no difference (or very little difference)...
    • Skullcrushers
    • K'daai Destroyer (mostly)
    • White Lions
    • Chaos Warriors
    • Arachnarok (mostly)
    • Demigryph Knights (mostly)
    • Mournfang Cavalry (mostly)
    • Executioners
    • Hell Pit
    • Savage Orcs (first round of combat)
    • Chaos Trolls
    • Soul Grinder
    • Hammerers

    The silly 6+ ward save of the Savage Orcs has proven much more useful than a 5+ armour save.
     
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  14. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

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    What time is it?... GAME TIME! The Mournfang Cavalry try to end their losing streak against the Savage Orc Big'uns.

    Key rules in play:
    • Mournfang: Thick-skinned
    • Savage Orc Big'uns: Choppas, Frenzy, Warpaint

    ***Correction/Update: The original calculations omitted the Mournfang Cavalry's Parry Save which they are permitted to use even though they are mounted. The calculations have been updated. As a result of the Parry Save, the Mournfang did not lose combat in the first round and break, and went on to fight for several rounds. As a result, the Savage Orc's Massive Victory was downgraded to a Victory. Obviously several subsequent update tables will have this matchup incorrectly labelled.***

    upload_2020-10-25_1-5-47.png

    The Savage Orcs take home a hard fought Victory.


    And as always... Thoughts? Concerns? Discussion!! :)
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2020 at 5:11 AM
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  15. Lizards of Renown
    Skink Priest

    Lizards of Renown Well-Known Member

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    (sniff, sniff) :( poor, poor little mournfangs...
     
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  16. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

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    Don't worry... they have the Arachnarok Spider to keep them company at the very bottom of the standings. ;)
     
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  17. Lizards of Renown
    Skink Priest

    Lizards of Renown Well-Known Member

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    I have to keep reminding myself that a) this is the best of the best and they are still a very formidable enemy, b) part of what you are buying for their points cost is a pretty nasty impact hits characteristic and c) they are not your stand-and-grind infantry troops, meaning not equipped for it or best utilized as it.

    I just hope they don't end up at the bottom-bottom... I had such high hopes for them!!!
     
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  18. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

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    Second to last match of this round. Nurgle Chaos Warriors vs. Executioners!

    Key rules in play:
    • Chaos Warriors: Mark of Nurgle
    • Executioners: Murderous Prowess, Killing Blow, ASF and ASL cancel each other out

    upload_2020-10-18_21-49-10.png

    Wow, that was razor close, but the Executioners are able to prevail... barely!

    Chaos Warriors are great, but I think at times we focus on their stats and not on their points cost. This was pretty much a repeat of the Skullcrushers vs. Demigryph matchup. Now, in actual game terms, the battle between these two elite units is nearly a coin toss. Executioners have a greater chance of wearing down and wiping out the Chaos Warriors, but the Chaos Warriors have better chance at breaking them in combat. Our tournament procedure dictates that we assume that a break test on 7 is a pass, but there are no such guarantees in an actual game.

    Still in this contest, with these rules, the Executioners are the worthy victors and they earn a mighty green square on the results chart:

    upload_2020-10-18_21-54-50.png

    So, @Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl , how do you feel about the Chaos Warriors now? They are a good unit, but maybe not as OP as they are made out to be. That's two straight losses to two Dark Elves infantry units.

    So far, this little competition has confirmed something that I had heard quite a while ago. When the Dark Elves arrived at the scene, they sported some pretty hard counters that gave the WoC quite a bit of trouble, namely, their infantry outclassed WoC infantry! For other armies this wasn't such an issue because they had greater access to shooting. It wasn't until the arrival of the Wood Elves that the meta shifted back towards the WoC because the Wood Elves' shooting prowess hard countered a lot of these "soft" but deadly Dark Elves close combat units, so they became less prevalent.

    One more matchup left to play this round. It's been a tough round for the Warriors of Chaos, losing two of two (Skullcrushers and Chaos Warriors), now their hopes ride on the only undefeated competitor left in the competition... the Chaos Trolls! Can they prevail, or will the WoC lose 3 of 3. Tune in to find out!

    And as always... Thoughts? Concerns? Discussion!! :)
     
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  19. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

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    Maybe it will come down to their matchup with the Arachnarok. Or maybe they still have a few good hidden matchups waiting in the wings.
     
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  20. Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl
    OldBlood

    Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl Well-Known Member

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    I’m still a little sceptical about them because their only losses are against Dark Elves, another of GW’s favourites that unnecessarily got two White Dwarfs’ worth of releases, and I don’t collect Dark Elves so don’t have access to those counters, but I’m now going to present Lustria Online’s scandalous confession of the year.

    I have some Warriors of Chaos models, 5 Marauder Horsemen and 5 old-sculpt Chaos Knights. I was given them by various people as brand new sets, and at the time I built and started painting them because I did like the models (and I still do think they’re nice models) and I thought they would form the beginnings of a nice third Destruction army, but when I discovered how strong they could be I have since put them in a box along with some other miniatures I don’t want to take to one of my favourite model shops that deals mostly in second-hand stuff. Seeing this has definitely made me less motivated to getting rid of them, alongside the appearance of a copy of the 8th WoC book on the website I got my second-hand Tomb King one from. My only concern is that it will be difficult to form a WoC army that is thematically fun to play against with the thematic builds of the armies I already have, but perhaps if I field mostly Marauders and a couple of small Chaos Warrior and Knight units it could be possible.
     
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