8th Ed. The BEST close combat units in all of Warhammer.

[NIGHTBRINGER]

After a bit of a delay, we finally have our next matchup. The undefeated Witch Elves take on the Beasts of Nurgle.

Key rules in play:

• Witch Elves: ASF, Frenzy, Murderous Prowess, Poisoned Attacks
• Beasts of Nurgle: Deamon of Nurgle, Daemonic, Poisoned Attacks, Random Attacks (D6+1), Regeneration

This was a very strange matchup and I had to run alternate unit formations until I got a clear representation of how the two sides matched up. Originally I had the Beasts of Nurgle formed up 6 wide. This ended disastrously for the Beasts of Nurgle, with the Witch Elves actually claiming a Massive Victory. For those interested, you can find those calculations here:

Spoiler: Horde of Witch Elves vs. Beasts of Nurgle [6-wide]

So in one scenario the Beasts pull off a Victory and in another formation the Witch Elves get a Massive victory. So the logical question would be to ask me how I choose which scenario counts and which scenario does not? I've add a detailed description of how I make such decisions to the original post of this thread. You'll find it under the heading: "How unit formations are selected/considered".

In short, I take on the viewpoint of each side, as if I were the general of that unit in this tournament. Running a couple of alternate scenarios, it was found that the optimal formation for the Beasts was 3-wide. Meaning, that the Beasts of Nurgle player is content fielding the unit in a 3x2 formation, no matter what formation the Witch Elves player decides to field. I then ran multiple Witch Elves formations [5 wide, 6 wide, 8 wide and horde] in the first round of combat, but there was no way for them to counter the Beasts in their 3x2 formation. It turned out that the Horde option remained the best for them, so that is how we arrived at the 3x2 vs. horde scenario. So if I were playing against myself, then mathematically, the Beasts of Nurgle fielding version of myself would win, no matter how the Witch Elves version decided to field his unit.

Okay, so why did formation change make such a difference? The Beasts changing formation to go narrower (3x2, instead of 6x1), deprived the Witch Elves of 10 of their attacks (as only 8 were in base to base contact). This meant that the Beasts were able to get through the Witches' opening round of attacks with 5 models remaining (with one sitting on a single wound), as opposed to 4. This meant that their output remained largely unchanged because the loss of attacks from the back (3 vs. 4.5 from the front rank + stomp) was offset by having an additional model to attack with, but the Witch Elves' output was more severely affected. In terms of the outcome, the first round of combat swung from the Witch Elves winning by 1, to the Beasts of Nurgle winning by 1. This was extremely significant, because it meant that the Witch Elves lost their frenzy. This small change in the first round had a cascading effect on the final result. Similar to the Hammers vs. White Lions matchup, this matchup is extremely fragile. Very small changes round-to-round can completely change the result. In the end, there was no Witch Elf formation I could find to get them to win combat (and retain their all important frenzy) in the first round when facing the Beasts in a 3x2 formation.

This also highlights a key advantage of multi-wound models. Their offensive output is not tied to singular wounds sustained. The Beasts only lose combat effectiveness for every 4 wounds they sustain.


Anyways, with all that babble out of the way, here is our updated chart:



So the Witch Elves are no longer undefeated, can the Troll's claim the top spot? As for the Beasts of Nurgle, they should not be underestimated. So far they have two victories against two extremely potent units (K'daai Destroyer and Witch Elves) and their sole loss (albeit a massive one) came at the hands of their only hard counter in our tournament, the Banner of the World Dragon wielding White Lions.


And as always... Thoughts? Concerns? Discussion!!

 

[Killer Angel]

Interesting analysis. Funnily, my guts were telling me the same (to run BoN in 3×2 formation)

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Interesting analysis. Funnily, my guts were telling me the same (to run BoN in 3×2 formation)

Yeah, being monstrous beasts, they don't lose to many attacks in the second rank when compared to the first rank. Things like Monstrous Cavalry are far more penalized because their mounts don't get to make attacks from the supporting ranks (and typically, the mounts are more dangerous than their riders).

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Here is a very quick and simple match. The White Lions of Chrace (with their Banner of the World Dragon) vs. the Soul Grinder. Any guesses on how this will go?

Key rules in play:

• White Lions: Martial Prowess, ASF & ASL cancel each other out, Stubborn, Banner of the World Dragon!
• Soul Grinder: Caught by the Iron Claw, Daemonic, Natural Armour (4+), Daemon of Nurgle

No analysis required. The Banner of the World Dragon strikes again. That's two Massive Victories delivered by the banner. The White Lions sit at two Massive Victory and one Loss. However, this is a highly inflated score as they have faced two units against which their banner granted them a 2+ ward save. They have one single unit left in which the banner will be useful, the Skullcrushers, after which point, they'll have to start earning their victories!





And as always... Thoughts? Concerns? Discussion!!

 

[Killer Angel]

That's two Massive Victories delivered by the banner.

This basically sums it up. Stupid banner.

 

[Lizards of Renown]

After a bit of a delay, we finally have our next matchup. The undefeated Witch Elves take on the Beasts of Nurgle.

Key rules in play:

• Witch Elves: ASF, Frenzy, Murderous Prowess, Poisoned Attacks
• Beasts of Nurgle: Deamon of Nurgle, Daemonic, Poisoned Attacks, Random Attacks (D6+1), Regeneration

View attachment 81189


This was a very strange matchup and I had to run alternate unit formations until I got a clear representation of how the two sides matched up. Originally I had the Beasts of Nurgle formed up 6 wide. This ended disastrously for the Beasts of Nurgle, with the Witch Elves actually claiming a Massive Victory. For those interested, you can find those calculations here:

Spoiler: Horde of Witch Elves vs. Beasts of Nurgle [6-wide]

View attachment 81190

So in one scenario the Beasts pull off a Victory and in another formation the Witch Elves get a Massive victory. So the logical question would be to ask me how I choose which scenario counts and which scenario does not? I've add a detailed description of how I make such decisions to the original post of this thread. You'll find it under the heading: "How unit formations are selected/considered".

In short, I take on the viewpoint of each side, as if I were the general of that unit in this tournament. Running a couple of alternate scenarios, it was found that the optimal formation for the Beasts was 3-wide. Meaning, that the Beasts of Nurgle player is content fielding the unit in a 3x2 formation, no matter what formation the Witch Elves player decides to field. I then ran multiple Witch Elves formations [5 wide, 6 wide, 8 wide and horde] in the first round of combat, but there was no way for them to counter the Beasts in their 3x2 formation. It turned out that the Horde option remained the best for them, so that is how we arrived at the 3x2 vs. horde scenario. So if I were playing against myself, then mathematically, the Beasts of Nurgle fielding version of myself would win, no matter how the Witch Elves version decided to field his unit.

Okay, so why did formation change make such a difference? The Beasts changing formation to go narrower (3x2, instead of 6x1), deprived the Witch Elves of 10 of their attacks (as only 8 were in base to base contact). This meant that the Beasts were able to get through the Witches' opening round of attacks with 5 models remaining (with one sitting on a single wound), as opposed to 4. This meant that their output remained largely unchanged because the loss of attacks from the back (3 vs. 4.5 from the front rank + stomp) was offset by having an additional model to attack with, but the Witch Elves' output was more severely affected. In terms of the outcome, the first round of combat swung from the Witch Elves winning by 1, to the Beasts of Nurgle winning by 1. This was extremely significant, because it meant that the Witch Elves lost their frenzy. This small change in the first round had a cascading effect on the final result. Similar to the Hammers vs. White Lions matchup, this matchup is extremely fragile. Very small changes round-to-round can completely change the result. In the end, there was no Witch Elf formation I could find to get them to win combat (and retain their all important frenzy) in the first round when facing the Beasts in a 3x2 formation.

This also highlights a key advantage of multi-wound models. Their offensive output is not tied to singular wounds sustained. The Beasts only lose combat effectiveness for every 4 wounds they sustain.


Anyways, with all that babble out of the way, here is our updated chart:

View attachment 81191

So the Witch Elves are no longer undefeated, can the Troll's claim the top spot? As for the Beasts of Nurgle, they should not be underestimated. So far they have two victories against two extremely potent units (K'daai Destroyer and Witch Elves) and their sole loss (albeit a massive one) came at the hands of their only hard counter in our tournament, the Banner of the World Dragon wielding White Lions.


And as always... Thoughts? Concerns? Discussion!!

Fascinating and great tactics example too.

More on this later.

 

[Lizards of Renown]

Here is a very quick and simple match. The White Lions of Chrace (with their Banner of the World Dragon) vs. the Soul Grinder. Any guesses on how this will go?

Key rules in play:

• White Lions: Martial Prowess, ASF & ASL cancel each other out, Stubborn, Banner of the World Dragon!
• Soul Grinder: Caught by the Iron Claw, Daemonic, Natural Armour (4+), Daemon of Nurgle

View attachment 81197

No analysis required. The Banner of the World Dragon strikes again. That's two Massive Victories delivered by the banner. The White Lions sit at two Massive Victory and one Loss. However, this is a highly inflated score as they have faced two units against which their banner granted them a 2+ ward save. They have one single unit left in which the banner will be useful, the Skullcrushers, after which point, they'll have to start earning their victories!


View attachment 81198


And as always... Thoughts? Concerns? Discussion!!

Booooo! Hiss!!!!!!!

More on this later.

 

[Imrahil]

There is a lot of information to digest... mostly because I had a deadline for work on Wednesday (made it just within half an hour ) so I have to read in on all the battles since Monday.

I spotted a massive win and a loss for my contest winner.

I tent to comment om some of the matchups later

Grrr, Imrahil

 

[Imrahil]

How unit formations are selected/considered:

• the goal is to make things as fair as possible for both sides, so I try to take on the viewpoint as the general of each unit. In a contentious matchup I'll flip back and forth between sides, playing devil's advocate.
• the key aim is to ensure that no one side gets the opportunity to "counter pick" their unit formation (unit width) against the other unit's formation. So for example, if a unit of Chaos Warriors were to be fielded 5-wide, I wouldn't field an opposing unit of Savage Orcs 7-wide if it gave them an unfair advantage (meaning that the Chaos Warriors would be better served going 7-wide themselves, or vice versa).
• when a matchup looks fishy, I'll run alternate scenarios to see if a victory was arrived at simply due to how the unit formations were selected.
• in the case of a Monster, the opposing unit will always be placed in the most advantageous formation, because in game terms, there is nothing the Monster general can do about it
• similarly to the point above, if a unit is completely fixed on a unit formation, regardless of the formation chosen by their opponent, then they are allowed to do so. For example if a unit of Witch Elves is best played as a Horde, regardless of the formation chosen by the opposing unit, then the Witch Elves are fielded as a horde (and the opponent in the best formation to face that horde)
• obviously I can't test every combination of opposing unit formations, but I try my best to make it as fair as possible. I also rely on you guys to give me feedback in the event that you come across something that I had not considered.
• usually, wider formations seem to work best, but there have been rare exceptions. Sometimes, I'll even post these "alternate scenarios" so you can see how events change based on variations in unit formation. For the purposes of the tournament though, only the result from what I think is the fairest representation of the matchup is used (unless there is significant feedback indicating otherwise)

All fair points.
I am not that in to the rules of unit coherancy and reformations.

Can you ajust your ranks midbattle(movement or hero phase)? To ensure you have the right counter for the incoming unit?

If not wouldn't it be fair to field them in their mostly used formation? On the other hand if you know (for instance) you are to face Witch Elves with your Beasts of Nurgle you now no to field the BoN in 3x2 formation.

There is a lot to learn for me, and this Topic is helping greatly

Grrr, Imrahil

 

[Imrahil]

Match time... and it is an interesting one!! Chaos Warriors vs. Black Guard of Naggarond

Key rules in play:

• Chaos Warriors: Mark of Nurgle
• Black Guard: ASF, Eternal Hatred, Murderous Prowess, Stubborn

View attachment 81065


That's got to be the upset of the tournament thus far. A huge result for the Black Guard and instantly justifying their inclusion in the tournament (good call @Lizards of Renown !). It also VERY likely means that @Killer Angel and @Mrs. NIGHTBRINGER will be correct in their prediction that the Aracknarok Spider will come in last place. Furthermore, if the Black Guard can beat the Chaos Warriors then it means that the other infantry units on this list are vulnerable to them as well.

The key difference was the fact that the Black Guard got to strike before the Chaos Warriors. Their opening salvo simply did too much damage and the Chaos Warriors didn't have the numbers left to grind them down. Re-rolling misses offset the Mark of Nurgle. Murderous Prowess helped their S4 to wound. Lastly, Chaos Warriors without shields are not as well armoured as some people believe them to be. The MoT sword and board variant would likely have fared better. The Chaos Warriors clearly have a better stat line, but the Black Guard were able to overcome it with their special rules. So which other infantry units will best the Chaos Warriors? I believe the Witch Elves will, but can anyone else pull it off? Savage Orcs?

Perhaps this will help shed a more realistic light on the Chaos Warriors. Great... yes, unbeatable... no. @Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl

View attachment 81066

And as always... Thoughts? Concerns? Discussion!!

This one is surprising, mostly, due to the reputation of the Chaos Warriors.
Great points to be taken into account.

Grrr, Imrahil

 

[Imrahil]

Here we go, the start of round 3! First up we have a battle of monsters. The K'daai Destroyer versus the Arachnarok Spider!

Key rules in play:

• K'daai Destroyer: Blazing Body, Bound Fire Daemon, Frenzy (D3 Attacks)
• Arachnarok Spider: Natural Armor (4+), Poisoned Attacks, Stubborn, Venom Surge

View attachment 81097

Well, what can be said. Sure the Arachnarok costs 35 points less, but considering the fact the that the K'daai could have easily beaten a pair of Arachnaroks at the same time says it all. The Spider is completely outclassed by the Dawi-Zhaar creation. The only reason the Spider could even manage to wound the K'daai was due to its poisoned attacks (and the D6 wounds of its Venom Surge attack). Unfortunately (for the Spider), 8 poisoned attacks simply isn't enough to bring down the K'daai Destroyer.

So the K'daai picks up its second Massive Victory to go alongside of its single loss, while the Aracknarok now has three Massive Loses in a row.

View attachment 81098

And as always... Thoughts? Concerns? Discussion!!

What is the Spider's area of expertise?
It doesn't really shine as of yet.

Grrr, Imrahil

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Can you ajust your ranks midbattle(movement or hero phase)? To ensure you have the right counter for the incoming unit?

You can change formations during the Remaining Moves sub-phase, phase, although at the cost of moving. If you have musician in your unit you can attempt a swift reform, where by you reform, do leadership test, and if you pass the test, you are free to move (but not march). If you fail your leadership test, then it just counts as a normal reform and you can no longer move that phase.

It is also possible to reform after a round of combat has been fought, a combat reform. The winner of that round of combat can simply change their formation, while the loser of the combat must pass a leadership test in order to do so. In either case though, you can't reform in such a way as to remove models from base-to-base contact. So for example, if you and your opponent were both in horde formation with 10 models each in b2b, you wouldn't be allowed to reform to 5-wide.

If not wouldn't it be fair to field them in their mostly used formation?

That is one approach, but it might not always lead to fair results. Also, what is considered to be the "mostly used formation" is up to interpretation. There are a lot of factors that go into something like that. Also, what happens if a unit can beat their opponent when the opponent utilizes a mostly used formation but they lose to that opponent when the opponent forms up optimally.

Topic is helping greatly

I'm glad to hear it. I've learned quite a bit from it as well!

 

[Imrahil]

You can change formations during the Remaining Moves sub-phase, phase, although at the cost of moving. If you have musician in your unit you can attempt a swift reform, where by you reform, do leadership test, and if you pass the test, you are free to move (but not march). If you fail your leadership test, then it just counts as a normal reform and you can no longer move that phase.

It is also possible to reform after a round of combat has been fought, a combat reform. The winner of that round of combat can simply change their formation, while the loser of the combat must pass a leadership test in order to do so. In either case though, you can't reform in such a way as to remove models from base-to-base contact. So for example, if you and your opponent were both in horde formation with 10 models each in b2b, you wouldn't be allowed to reform to 5-wide.


That is one approach, but it might not always lead to fair results. Also, what is considered to be the "mostly used formation" is up to interpretation. There are a lot of factors that go into something like that. Also, what happens if a unit can beat their opponent when the opponent utilizes a mostly used formation but they lose to that opponent when the opponent forms up optimally.



I'm glad to hear it. I've learned quite a bit from it as well!

I agree, and after all this breakdown of top tier units gives us the information on best unit formation at the end

Keep them comming

Grrr, Imrahil

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

This one is surprising, mostly, due to the reputation of the Chaos Warriors.
Great points to be taken into account.

Grrr, Imrahil

Indeed. This one caught me off guard as well. As a Warriors of Chaos player myself, I know that Chaos Warriors are beatable, but I didn't expect the Black Guard to do it. Chaos Warriors are a great unit, but I think their reputation is exaggerated by some. The Dark Elves are capable of fielding some nasty combat units of their own.

What is the Spider's area of expertise?
It doesn't really shine as of yet.

Grrr, Imrahil

It's a very fast moving, terror-causing monster that can also be upgraded to augment the magic phase and also provides a bit of light shooting. I don't consider it to be a particular expert in any one domain but rather a jack of all trades, meaning it is useful in multiple aspects, even if not completely dominate in any one.

Also, even if it comes in dead last in the tournament, it wouldn't mean that it is poor in combat. These are the best combat units in all of Warhammer, somebody has to come in last. Plus the fact that it can't take advantage of a general's leadership bubble in conjunction with its stubborn, really hurts it in this tournament.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

This basically sums it up. Stupid banner.

Now imagine being a Daemons of Chaos player and having to deal with that banner. It basically makes that unit invincible. As far as I can figure, the best they could do would be to ignore it and focus on the rest of the army, but that means leaving the bunkered wizard(s) inside free to do their work completely unbothered.

 

[Lizards of Renown]

Now imagine being a Daemons of Chaos player and having to deal with that banner. It basically makes that unit invincible. As far as I can figure, the best they could do would be to ignore it and focus on the rest of the army, but that means leaving the bunkered wizard(s) inside free to do their work completely unbothered.

Yep. One of the most broken magic items in the game. Absolutely ridiculous.

 

[Lizards of Renown]

After a bit of a delay, we finally have our next matchup. The undefeated Witch Elves take on the Beasts of Nurgle.

In short, I take on the viewpoint of each side, as if I were the general of that unit in this tournament. Running a couple of alternate scenarios, it was found that the optimal formation for the Beasts was 3-wide. Meaning, that the Beasts of Nurgle player is content fielding the unit in a 3x2 formation, no matter what formation the Witch Elves player decides to field. I then ran multiple Witch Elves formations [5 wide, 6 wide, 8 wide and horde] in the first round of combat, but there was no way for them to counter the Beasts in their 3x2 formation. It turned out that the Horde option remained the best for them, so that is how we arrived at the 3x2 vs. horde scenario. So if I were playing against myself, then mathematically, the Beasts of Nurgle fielding version of myself would win, no matter how the Witch Elves version decided to field his unit.

I think this is very well worked out. Good comparisons of the layouts of the units which (let's be honest) can be easily changed by the generals on the fly, meaning that if you saw the Witch Elves unit coming towards you, you could change your unit's footprint.

The only thing I will say is that it does point up a generalling point rather than just a math-hammer point. A general not having run the numbers on this, may not have changed the formation of the unit and could end up getting absolutely obliterated as in the example that you gave.

What the combat actually is, is a fantastic example of the importance of ranks and footprint when going into combat. I think it totally proves this point and is something that we should consider as a key WFB General's Handbook.

(Which for the record @NIGHTBRINGER, is what we should make our next project: a WFB General's Handbook containing tried and true tactics that can be used by ANY army)

Okay, so why did formation change make such a difference? The Beasts changing formation to go narrower (3x2, instead of 6x1), deprived the Witch Elves of 10 of their attacks (as only 8 were in base to base contact). This meant that the Beasts were able to get through the Witches' opening round of attacks with 5 models remaining (with one sitting on a single wound), as opposed to 4. This meant that their output remained largely unchanged because the loss of attacks from the back (3 vs. 4.5 from the front rank + stomp) was offset by having an additional model to attack with, but the Witch Elves' output was more severely affected. In terms of the outcome, the first round of combat swung from the Witch Elves winning by 1, to the Beasts of Nurgle winning by 1. This was extremely significant, because it meant that the Witch Elves lost their frenzy. This small change in the first round had a cascading effect on the final result. Similar to the Hammers vs. White Lions matchup, this matchup is extremely fragile. Very small changes round-to-round can completely change the result. In the end, there was no Witch Elf formation I could find to get them to win combat (and retain their all important frenzy) in the first round when facing the Beasts in a 3x2 formation.

As above, this is fascinating. This kind of thing is the thing that I LOVE about WFB: a General really thinking through the chess-like sequences of what will happen when ______ and what do I do about it? Fantastic stuff.

This also highlights a key advantage of multi-wound models. Their offensive output is not tied to singular wounds sustained. The Beasts only lose combat effectiveness for every 4 wounds they sustain.

Yep, gotta love those multi-wound models. Especially unbreakable ones.

So the Witch Elves are no longer undefeated, can the Troll's claim the top spot? As for the Beasts of Nurgle, they should not be underestimated. So far they have two victories against two extremely potent units (K'daai Destroyer and Witch Elves) and their sole loss (albeit a massive one) came at the hands of their only hard counter in our tournament, the Banner of the World Dragon wielding White Lions.

I had never really thought about the Beasts of Nurgle to be honest, so this is quite revealing. When I chose my evil army (as I had one good and two neutral, so I wanted some bad guys), the only one that actually appealed to me was Khorne (@TheCrazyKhorneGuy !!!) and so I started collecting ONLY those Khorne daemons or neutral. So sadly I'll never use the Beasts, but they are evidently pretty flipping good!

 

[Lizards of Renown]

Here is a very quick and simple match. The White Lions of Chrace (with their Banner of the World Dragon) vs. the Soul Grinder. Any guesses on how this will go?

Ugh.... (spit, spit)

No analysis required. The Banner of the World Dragon strikes again. That's two Massive Victories delivered by the banner. The White Lions sit at two Massive Victory and one Loss. However, this is a highly inflated score as they have faced two units against which their banner granted them a 2+ ward save. They have one single unit left in which the banner will be useful, the Skullcrushers, after which point, they'll have to start earning their victories!

So, I realized that in giving the White Lions the standard which is their pinnacle load-out, we didn't really look at the same thing for any other units in detail... too late for it now, but it would be interesting to see what other apex-builds exist for any of the combatants we have had so far.

Is it wrong that I'm really looking forwards to the Lions being absolutely obliterated by someone?

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

I think this is very well worked out. Good comparisons of the layouts of the units which (let's be honest) can be easily changed by the generals on the fly, meaning that if you saw the Witch Elves unit coming towards you, you could change your unit's footprint.

Thank you!

Which for the record @NIGHTBRINGER, is what we should make our next project: a WFB General's Handbook containing tried and true tactics that can be used by ANY army)

Shhhh... we don't want to give away our secrets.

As above, this is fascinating. This kind of thing is the thing that I LOVE about WFB: a General really thinking through the chess-like sequences of what will happen when ______ and what do I do about it? Fantastic stuff.

Me too. I must admit, I am thoroughly enjoying this tournament and especially the fantastic discussions that have spawned from it!

I had never really thought about the Beasts of Nurgle to be honest, so this is quite revealing.

Maybe it is time you add a few to your army. I've had virtually no experience with them, but I have repeatedly heard great things about them.

but it would be interesting to see what other apex-builds exist for any of the combatants we have had so far.

Such as? Magic Banners?

Is it wrong that I'm really looking forwards to the Lions being absolutely obliterated by someone?

Don't worry, they can't duck the K'daai Destroyer forever!

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

An upset is a brewing. One that might shock and awe.

The entire complexion of the standings might be shook up.


Still have an alternate scenario to run and check some numbers though.