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8th Ed. The Best Monstrous Infantry unit in all of Warhammer

Discussion in 'Other Armies Discussion' started by Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl, Nov 12, 2020.

  1. Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl
    Slann

    Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl Eleventh Spawning

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    Good point, I have amended that, but as it turns out it makes no difference - the K'daai still give the Horrors a royal stomping (or should that be burning?)!
     
  2. Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl
    Slann

    Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl Eleventh Spawning

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    And it's time for another battle! The Maneaters are the one unit remaining to not have a Round 3 battle, so they shall have it now against the Tree Kin, the first to have a Round 4 battle!

    Key Rules In Play:
    Maneaters: Poisoned Attacks, Stubborn (both from Been There, Done That), Additional Hand Weapons, War Banner (+1 Combat Res)
    Tree Kin: Scaly Skin (4+), Forest Spirit (6+ Ward Save)

    upload_2022-4-22_14-7-59.png

    And it's another one-round win for the Maneaters - that combo of Poisoned Attacks, Strength 5 and Additional Hand Weapons does hurt, doing enough damage to negate much of the Wood Elf Dreadnoughts' armour and kill off one model and badly wound a second, and the Tree Kin being more defensively oriented meant they always struggled to inflict as much damage in return. This combined with the Maneaters' War Banner standard meant they were able to inflict a resounding combat victory against the Tree Kin, which was too much for even their Leadership of 8 to handle.

    upload_2022-4-22_14-14-12.png

    That means the Maneaters end Round 3 in joint first place with the K'daai Fireborn and the Chaos Trolls, while the Tree Kin begin Round 4 with their first Major Loss in the tourney, dropping to join the Rat Ogres, Fimir, Ironguts, Bulls, Fenbeasts and Ushabti on -2 apiece, though the scores of these factions will all change again as they participate in their fourth round battles.

    Thoughts? Concerns? Discussion!!!
     
  3. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

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    Couple of quick observations:
    • Treekin and Maneaters each have Initiative 3, and should be striking simultaneously
    • if the Treekin were 3 wide in the above scenario they would have a rank bonus and be steadfast (although this could be offset by the Maneaters forming up wider)
    • in the results above, you have the Treekin losing by 3 and needing a 3 on their break test, their base leadership is 8, so they would need a 5

    Regardless, the Maneaters are still going to win. They are a very tough competitor in this tourney. I can only see a couple of units posing a a legitimate threat to them.
     
  4. The Great White Lizard
    Chameleon Skink

    The Great White Lizard Well-Known Member

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    Wow, the Maneaters are really looking hard to beat! It will be interesting to see if they end up on top.
     
  5. Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl
    Slann

    Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl Eleventh Spawning

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    Missed that, will amend.
    I happened to have the Maneaters 4 wide anyway in order for them to get 23 Attacks, I had just forgotten to change the written width for them. Will amend.
    Typo, will amend.

    Here's the corrected fight:

    upload_2022-4-22_16-29-0.png

    And you are correct, the Maneaters do prevail all the same. The Tree Kin do actually manage to inflict another wound and would have brought the Maneaters to a draw, if it wasn't for their War Banner which gives them +2 extra points of combat resolution, enough to reduce the Tree Kin's Leadership to 6 and still send them running.
     
  6. Lizards of Renown
    Slann

    Lizards of Renown Herald of Creation

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    Hooray for the Maneaters!

    All praise the Great Maw!

    [LoR goes back to munching on his popcorn as he waits for the next fight to start]
     
  7. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

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    They're in my top 4 in terms of most likely to win, with the Fireborn being my top pick.
     
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  8. Lizards of Renown
    Slann

    Lizards of Renown Herald of Creation

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    Hashut provides, does he not brother? :D
     
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  9. Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl
    Slann

    Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl Eleventh Spawning

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    All right, time for another matchup! Today, blood in the snow abound, as the Yhetees take on the Minotaurs!

    Key Rules in Play:
    Yhetees: Aura of Frost
    Minotaurs: Additional Hand Weapons, Bloodgreed, Musician, Standard Bearer

    upload_2022-4-25_14-5-5.png

    A resounding win for the Yhetees and a commiserative loss for the Minotaurs. I first thought that both sides had Initiative 3 which would have meant despite the Yhetees' Aura of Frost forcing the Minotaurs to fight on the cave-beasts' terms by reducing their Weapon Skill to 3, allowing the Yhetees to inflict one extra wound, the Minotaurs' Standard Bearer and Musician would have helped to turn the combat in the favour of the Beastmen. But then I revised the Ogre Kingdoms book and noticed Yhetees had Initiative 4, meaning they got to act first and blunt Team Bullseye's return punch before the Minotaurs could do anything, such that they lost the combat by 2 even with their Standard helping them out, with their base Leadership of 7 being no help at all. The Yhetees thus walk away with a very convincing Massive Victory!

    upload_2022-4-25_14-9-7.png

    That stonker of a win for the Yhetees pushes them up the table to a very respectable 4 points, while the Minotaurs' Massive Loss knocks them down to join the rest of the first tier of rejects at -2 points.

    Thoughts? Concerns? Discussion!!!
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2022
  10. Lizards of Renown
    Slann

    Lizards of Renown Herald of Creation

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    These fights are good examples of how much Initiative order and ASF/ASL can affect a combat. I was expecting the Minotaurs to be carving a niche for themselves (although they're at least mid-table right now).
     
  11. Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl
    Slann

    Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl Eleventh Spawning

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    You're correct, as I mentioned before if the Yhetees had Initiative 3, the Minotaurs would have won thanks to their command group, meaning Initiative order and ASF/ASL certainly play a big part in 8th Edition.

    To be honest while they have a pretty decent profile for Monstrous Infantry the Minotaurs are constrained by their high base points value of 55 for what they can do (which, no doubt, was originally intended due to Fear being a much stronger mechanic in 7th Edition but has now become outdated in 8th where Fear is so much weaker), forcing them to bring a mere 5 models to the party when most of the units here bring 6 or 7. The additional hand weapon combo is serving them well enough to give them some wins, but their low starting model count means those wins have all been currently achieved with the caveat of having less than half their original wound count alive at the end.

    As part of my 8th Edition Beastman book I'm definitely giving Minotaurs a slight points decrease, and after this tourney is at an end, in the style of the @NIGHTBRINGER I will host some bonus matches, some of which will include Minotaurs at this reduced points value. I'm thinking 48 points per model, given that as per 8th Edition convention they will start with hand weapon and shield already provided, and an exchange to additional hand weapons will likely be free of charge.
     
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2022
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  12. The Great White Lizard
    Chameleon Skink

    The Great White Lizard Well-Known Member

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    A crushing loss for the true children of chaos :(. Hey, at least they aren't at the very bottom.
     
  13. Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl
    Slann

    Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl Eleventh Spawning

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    Time for another round!

    Today, I believe the time is right to find out which of our two absolutely worst entries is (slightly) less awful - the Chaos Ogres are taking on the Bile Trolls!

    Key rules in Play:
    Chaos Ogres: Mark of Khorne (Frenzy), Additional Hand Weapons
    Bile Trolls: Mark of Nurgle, Poisoned Attacks, Regeneration (5+), Infected Vomit

    upload_2022-4-27_16-1-21.png

    While the Bile Trolls are a very poor Troll loadout, they are still Trolls, and their Regeneration (plus the Mark of Nurgle) is enough to weather the rain of attacks made by the Chaos Ogres who, unlike their 'normal' kin, don't have the numbers, the Weapon Skill or the Strength to kill even a single Bile Troll. In return all five Bile Trolls kick out enough damage to kill 2 Chaos Ogres, easily enough to win the combat and send the rest packing, earning themselves what may well be the only Major Victory they'll get in this contest.

    upload_2022-4-27_16-17-23.png

    This pushes the Bile Trolls up to join the Kroxigors at -4 points, while the Chaos Ogres continue to freefall down to -8 points. I doubt if they'll redeem themselves at all in this tourney, but we're not even halfway through so I may yet be surprised.

    As I'm feeling generous (and I didn't have the time to post a fight yesterday :oops:) I believe the time is right for a double-bill!

    Now for a duel of cold-blooded beings, some ex-worshippers of Chaos, others staunch defenders of the Old Ones. The Kroxigors are fighting the Fimir!

    Key Rules in Play:
    Kroxigors: Always Strikes Last (Great Weapons), Cold-blooded, Predatory Fighter, Scaly Skin (4+)
    Fimir Warriors: Scaly Skin (6+), Heavy Armour, Always Strikes Last (Great Weapons), Cold Blooded, From the Mists, Tail Attack (S5)

    As always with the Fimir we shall first resolve their performance at their peak, with the 'From the Mists' Bound Spell in play:

    upload_2022-4-27_16-32-3.png

    And with that spell they dominate, the mists plus the Fimir's superior Weapon Skill crippling the Kroxigors' attack output, despite both sides fighting at the same time, and allowing the Fimir to win so heavily that not even the Cold-Blooded rule could stop the crocodilian Lizardmen running in shame. However, that Bound Spell can be pretty easily dispelled - let's see what happens when the Fimir are robbed of their fog:
    upload_2022-4-27_16-39-24.png

    Without the mist spell the Kroxigors are able to strike a lot harder, and the Fimir's high points cost works against them to ensure they are wiped out in the second turn. However, the Fimir still do enough damage to reduce the Kroxigors to half their starting number of models, and below half their starting number of wounds, meaning the Krox only end up with a Victory.

    Personally I think the natural result of combining the outcomes of these two fights would thus be a Minor Victory for the Fimir, given that the 2 points for their Massive Victory with their Bound Spell - 1 for their Minor Loss without their Bound Spell results in +1, i.e. a Minor Victory.

    upload_2022-4-27_16-45-59.png

    This result raises the Fimir to -1, above the burgeoning Minus Two Club that includes the Rat Ogres, Minotaurs and Tree Kin, while the Kroxigors descend below the Bile Trolls to -5 points, with only the Chaos Ogres faring worse thus far.

    Do you agree or disagree with my verdict on the Fimir?
    Thoughts? Concerns? Discussion!!!
     
  14. Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl
    Slann

    Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl Eleventh Spawning

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    No complaints as to my choice to give the Fimir a Minor Victory? Good, then I shall proceed with the next battle!

    Today, it's Great Weapons at Dawn (or rather 3:00 in the afternoon in this case), a marauding mob of Ironguts foray into the Nehekharan desert and disturb some Ushabti...

    upload_2022-4-28_15-5-32.png

    And after that smackdown in the sands, only the Ironguts remain, but with just three of the eight models they started with! Both combatant units were extremely well-matched in the first round, inflicting 10 wounds on the other unit, it was purely the Ushabti's greater points cost and reduced numbers that meant they couldn't hit back quite so hard in the second round and lost their last remaining wounds to Instability. However, it is undeniable that they chopped lumps out of the Gutstar and made it a far more manageable threat for a Tomb Kings player to handle, leaving the Ogres with just a Minor Victory to take home.

    upload_2022-4-28_15-8-29.png

    Nevertheless, that win raises the Ironguts out of the Minus Two Club to join the Fimir in a new Minus One club, while the Ushabti drop to -3 points, above the Bile Trolls, Kroxigors and Chaos Ogres but below everybody else thus far.


    Thoughts? Concerns? Discussion!!!
     
  15. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

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    Personally I would not even run the numbers with the bound spell in play. Just strict close combat. If we start adding in external factors, it would probably be fair to include things like Ogre Charge too.

    That said, there is nothing wrong with your approach. Just not the way that I would tackle it. (I'm still enjoying the show though!)
     
  16. Imrahil
    Slann

    Imrahil Thirtheenth Spawning

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    I think the question that is relevant here is: Is 'From the Mist' always in play? I don't think so because of your double study.
    If so I agree with @NIGHTBRINGER that it is an outside influence, thus has to be ignored like charging bonusses and such.

    You are doing great work lately on this thread :)
    the roster is filling up nicely.

    How many battles for this round still to come?

    Grrr, Imrahil
     
  17. The Great White Lizard
    Chameleon Skink

    The Great White Lizard Well-Known Member

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    I'm not super familiar with the book that the Fimir are from, but given that it's a bound spell I would be interested to see how often a player would actually have it off. If the bound spell is a primary reason to play the Fimir, then I think you should be calculating as you are now (although you could also make that argument for rules like Ogre Charge). If it's something the Fimir will rarely actually have off, then the results should be counted without the bound spell.

    It'll be interesting to see if the Fimir manage to get out of the negatives.
     
  18. Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl
    Slann

    Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl Eleventh Spawning

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    I certainly understand where you're both coming from, but unlike Ogre Charge and other charge bonuses that happen only in the first turn (and only when the unit charges which isn't always guaranteed), 'From the Mists' has a chance of applying in any turn if the owning player successfully casts it and the opposing player fails to dispel it.

    Personally I will choose to keep running with it for this reason, though I will still average out the result with the outcome that happens without the spell to balance it out. Additionally, I can include an alternative score purely totting up the results of the latter matches for those of you who would discount the Bound Spell, to give you an idea of how the Fimir fare at their worst as well as an average.

    4 more matches, and after this one, three ;)

    Next up, it's an all-out Ogre tribal punch-up - the Maneaters are fighting the Ogre Bulls!

    upload_2022-4-29_11-19-40.png

    And most likely to be expected, the Maneaters butcher three Bulls before they even get to fight, and while their returning blows fell two of their better-travelled brethren, it was always going to be difficult for the Bulls to inflict as many wounds as 11 on a unit with superior Initative, Weapon Skill and Poisoned Attacks. Add to that the Maneaters' extra point of resolution given to them by the War Banner, and the Bulls automatically run, giving the Maneaters another well-deserved one-round Massive Victory!

    upload_2022-4-29_11-23-5.png

    Their fourth consecutive Major Victory in a row brings the Maneaters up to a mighty 8 points and into sole first place, while the Bulls' Major Loss knocks them down to join the Bile Trolls at -4.

    Thoughts? Concerns? Discussion!!!
     
  19. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

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    The other reason why I am not a fan of its inclusion is that it requires outside resources (powerdice). Who is to say that in a game the opposition doesn't cast an augment spell of his own using one of his wizards? (which, as a bonus, will be easier to cast than a bound spell because you get to add your wizard levels to the cast)

    However, if we instead consider this through the lens of a fun tournament (as opposed to how well each unit will fare in an actual game of warhammer), then I can see how it's inclusion is merited.

    No surprises here! It will be interesting seeing the Maneaters go up against some of the tournaments more elite contestants. Outside of the Treekin, their competition has been pretty weak. I still have the Maneaters finishing somewhere in the top four.
     
  20. Lizards of Renown
    Slann

    Lizards of Renown Herald of Creation

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    The thing is a bound spell is an interesting one. You get no wizard bonus to casting, so any wizard who wants to dispel it has a definite advantage.

    My experience with spells in general is that 75% of the time they get dispelled or don't come off. I'd be interested in anyone who has experience with bound spells being used once the opponent has used up all his dispel dice.

    Maybe they are gotten off more often than I've experienced personally.

    Somehow I think not though.
     

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