8th Ed. The Legendary Warriors of Chaos "Unkillable" Hortennse Lord.

[Killer Angel]

Thoughts?

we could also say that, in any case (both agains kholek and against Archaon), Hortennse was still able to tie up models with a much higher cost, for the large part of the game

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

we could also say that, in any case (both agains kholek and against Archaon), Hortennse was still able to tie up models with a much higher cost, for the large part of the game

True, but I don't think I'd take that trade. A near 400 point character and army general, in exchange for one or two game turns of delay. Especially in the case of Kholek, since he can be dealt with more easily.

Alas, even the mighty Hortennse has his limitations!

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Here is another counter against Hortennse. This time around, it's for the Orcs and Goblins. This is a build that my friend you used to employ in his general list (it wasn't in anyway designed with Hortennse in mind), but it happens to do well against Hortennse.

He created a massive deathstar consisting of:

• 50+ Savage Orc Big'uns with AHW, full command
• a fighty Orc character
• a BSB with Mork's War Banner
• a Savage Orc shaman with the Lucky Shrunken Head magic item

It was a big bad scary unit. Huge attack output and a decent defense in the form of T4, 5+ ward save and numbers.

Anyways, for our purposes, the key item is Mork's War Banner which (alongside of granting Magic Resistance (D6)) nullifies all magic times belonging to enemy models whilst they are in base contact with the bearer. No magic items means no Hortennse. That mighty 3++ rr1's ward save is instantly reduced to 6++ rr1's.

The setup is simple. Keep the fighty Orc character in one of the corners of your front rank and right next to him put the BSB with Mork's War Banner. Hortennse charges and must issue a challenge. Now simply accept the challenge with the fighty Orc character. Hortennse must then be moved into base contact with the fighty Orc (and simultaneously in base contact with the BSB). Even though Hortennse is in a challenge with the fighty Orc, he is still in b2b with the BSB, so his magic items are nullified. Next, one of two things likely happens:

• the Orc beats the weakened Hortennse
• Hortennse beats or draws the Orc, but not enough to overcome the static combat resolution (3 ranks, standard, bsb and musician versus Hortennse's charge). He now has to pass a break test, but since his magic items are nullified (including his crown of command) he is no longer stubborn. Good luck to the WoC player.

In either case, Hortennse is in very big trouble. Of course, Hortennse does not have to charge this unit (and is unlikely to be charged by them) but that is already a win because it means he can't hold up the central deathstar of the army (like he would with an Ogre Gutstar for example). It acts as a major deterrent. It's a costly setup, but it works on its own, even if there is no Hortennse. Like I said, my friend loved this setup against all sorts of armies. The unit formed the centerpiece of his army and it just happens to work well against Hortennse too. For the record, this setup is much less useful against a DP, because the DP only has 25pts of magic items, and instead relies on innate special rules and Chaos Mutations/Blessings. He is also unbreakable so the static combat resolution means nothing to him.


What do you guys think?

 

[Killer Angel]

What do you guys think?

Tricky combination, i like very much the fact that it works as generic setting.

What can i say... that in the end there's a reason why hortennse is strong, but the DP remained one of the main tool for chaos.

 

[Lizards of Renown]

Here is another counter against Hortennse. This time around, it's for the Orcs and Goblins. This is a build that my friend you used to employ in his general list (it wasn't in anyway designed with Hortennse in mind), but it happens to do well against Hortennse.

He created a massive deathstar consisting of:

• 50+ Savage Orc Big'uns with AHW, full command
• a fighty Orc character
• a BSB with Mork's War Banner
• a Savage Orc shaman with the Lucky Shrunken Head magic item

It was a big bad scary unit. Huge attack output and a decent defense in the form of T4, 5+ ward save and numbers.

Anyways, for our purposes, the key item is Mork's War Banner which (alongside of granting Magic Resistance (D6)) nullifies all magic times belonging to enemy models whilst they are in base contact with the bearer. No magic items means no Hortennse. That mighty 3++ rr1's ward save is instantly reduced to 6++ rr1's.

The setup is simple. Keep the fighty Orc character in one of the corners of your front rank and right next to him put the BSB with Mork's War Banner. Hortennse charges and must issue a challenge. Now simply accept the challenge with the fighty Orc character. Hortennse must then be moved into base contact with the fighty Orc (and simultaneously in base contact with the BSB). Even though Hortennse is in a challenge with the fighty Orc, he is still in b2b with the BSB, so his magic items are nullified. Next, one of two things likely happens:

• the Orc beats the weakened Hortennse
• Hortennse beats or draws the Orc, but not enough to overcome the static combat resolution (3 ranks, standard, bsb and musician versus Hortennse's charge). He now has to pass a break test, but since his magic items are nullified (including his crown of command) he is no longer stubborn. Good luck to the WoC player.

In either case, Hortennse is in very big trouble. Of course, Hortennse does not have to charge this unit (and is unlikely to be charged by them) but that is already a win because it means he can't hold up the central deathstar of the army (like he would with an Ogre Gutstar for example). It acts as a major deterrent. It's a costly setup, but it works on its own, even if there is no Hortennse. Like I said, my friend loved this setup against all sorts of armies. The unit formed the centerpiece of his army and it just happens to work well against Hortennse too. For the record, this setup is much less useful against a DP, because the DP only has 25pts of magic items, and instead relies on innate special rules and Chaos Mutations/Blessings. He is also unbreakable so the static combat resolution means nothing to him.


What do you guys think?

That's a fantastic build and somehow I missed that item (although at 100 points for the banner this unit is SERIOUSLY costy).

It's major limitation is that they are M4 and at 50+ they are going to be very, very sluggish.

You're right it's a deterrant for the Hortennse, but I think with either Beasts or Trolls you could tie up the unit yourself. Plus any WoC general worth his salt is going to have 1 or 2 Hellcannons and that 50+ unit is going to be an easy hit even with scatter. Even with their 5+ save they're moving slowly and you're going to have time to take out a lot of them before they get anywhere.

Still, it's a fantastic build. Savage Orcs and Black Orcs are the two units that I'm not looking fowards to when I'm facing O&Gs.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

You're right it's a deterrant for the Hortennse, but I think with either Beasts or Trolls you could tie up the unit yourself.

True, but Trolls (outside of flaming attacks + leadership supported) and Beasts of Nurgle will literally tie up just about anything. An equally pointed JuggerStar will grind down a Savage Orc deathstar, but the presence of the O&G character(s) could throw that off depending on their potency. Still, it is a scary unit.

Plus any WoC general worth his salt is going to have 1 or 2 Hellcannons

I do like Hellcannon's but they don't always make it into my lists. Sometimes I like to maximize my Skullcrushers.

Still, it's a fantastic build. Savage Orcs and Black Orcs are the two units that I'm not looking fowards to when I'm facing O&Gs.

You don't see Black Orcs all that often. Savage Orcs seem to fulfill the same role, but better.

As far as facing them, depending on your army, you do have some good counters.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Here is another matchup. Ultimate defense versus ultimate offense! Introducing Hellebron!



A deceivingly comfortable win for Hortennse. I say deceivingly because it doesn't take much to shift the balance of the contest. I remember running this calculation back in the day and Hortennse was in trouble. 1 v 1 we can see that Hortennse wins, but Dark Elves players will often have a Cauldron of Blood in their Witch Elves + Hellebron deathstar. That 5++ ward is simply too good on such a unit. With that in mind...



This is the tight contest that I remember calculating in the past. Hellebron survives the round of combat with 0.7 wounds remaining (so anything but a sure thing). She then gets to attack first in the second round of combat and brings down Hortennse. The matchup is nearly a coin toss.


Alternatively, along similar lines as the Savage Orc counter discussed previously, if the Dark Elves can get The Other Trickster's Shard in b2b with Hortennse when Hellebron engages him, then it gets ugly much faster...



Of course this requires a bit of setup and a healthy mix of list tailoring to accomplish. List tailoring that can be run in the other direction. Give Hortennse the Sword of Swift Slaying and Glittering Scales along with his usual Talisman of Preservation, and Hellebron doesn't stand a chance!! I haven't run the numbers, but off the top of my head, I believe it should hard counter Hellebron.



Thoughts?