AoS The new Battletome: A Discussion

You can check all the new Warscrolls here. I named them accordingly to the highlights and changes

They really wanted to buff Trogs, that's for sure, but damn my Basties got nerfed.

Does anyone have the BT yet? We are still not sure of how all of this changes will work in tandem. Maybe the "ignore -1 Rend" will be given to specific Battalions, maybe there will be other abilities given if your commander is a saurus, skink or slann, and we have to remember that Skink Chiefs are returning, so maybe they will get extra commands for skinks.

For the Stegaggedon list: why bother? they themselves admited that that's more of a meme build. And a nice throwback back when in WHF making the "replace skinks, add stegas" was a legit army list.

 

Ash is talking fast, but there is everything in there. Try visiting the rumour thread also

 

There a ton of preview articles and videos which cover everything moee or less.

Ignore -1 rend is gone, but almost all the units that had the ability got +1 Save or some other kind of bump.

 

Only three got a save bump. Skinks LITERALLY get a save bump for their shield now, and are the only model that even mentioned the shield on the warscroll... to include the Sunblood and his aegis was his whole schtick!

 

I think, they went causious with the saves because we can easily overstack them. Seer+priest+cover will make any our unit 2+ save.

 

Hysh Koatl's Claw can basically get infinite CPs with Aetherquartz Brooch. Each time the general uses a CP, you get a 4+ roll and a 5+ roll to generate another CP (1/3 chance of generating no CP, with an average of 5/6 extra CP per CP used, which makes each CP worth ~5 CP on average, assuming all of them are being used by the general, so...), on top of a 5+ roll for any starpriests, 4+ for any starseers, 2 4+ rolls for Slann, or 3 for Kroak at the start of each of your turns; assuming just a Slann + starpriest, that's an average ~1.333 extra CP per turn, or ~5.67 extra CP per game, before counting the bonus CP you're getting from the oldblood general spamming command abilities on all the Saurus units.

Having Saurus making 4 attacks with 2 hitting on a 2+ (if Oldlbood)/wounding on 2+ (if sunblood) and 2 on 3+/3+, all with rend -1, and generating additional hits on natural 6s (Scar Vet) with a Sunclaw is pretty feasible. They could also potentially be on a 2+ save without much difficulty with all of our casting bonuses. The first model I'd drop is probably the Sunblood, while it's command ability is technically a bit better when it can be used, it's also the most difficult to make use of because of the range, and you're probably running an Oldblood for the battalion + Scar vet on carno for that list.
*also 6s to hit causing mortal wounds with a starpriest.

Thinking we have a pretty strong potential combat/Saurus focused list that's much easier to pull off than the old one. Carnos are better than they look on paper from just the warscroll as well, since the Carnos get a full extra jaw attack in a Coalesced army, and with potential +2 to hit from command abilities, you can have everything hitting on a 2+, with potential for re-rolling 1s to hit from the Skink spell lore. For a scar vet carno (The oldblood gets a bit better, since its weapon does 1 more damage), that's an average of ~17.33 damage just from getting +2 to hit and the +1 attack on the jaws. Being only rend -1 kind of sucks, but that's pretty good output. Add on the Scar Vet command ability and re-roll 1s to hit and it's averaging ~25.11 damage. Add the Sunblood command ability and it's on ~31.38 damage.
Granted, this all assumes it's still on 10 - 12 wounds.

With even more attacks from the Great Drake asterism for +1 attack to all of the profiles, that goes up to ~39.21 damage (It does not say it doesn't affect mounts - It's not a command trait or artefact, so whether or not it affects the carnosaur is a bit unclear atm and will need an FAQ). And it's actually feasible to get all of that with the CP farm. Even at just rend -1, that's ~19 damage vs a target with a 3+ save.

For a 210 point monster that can run and charge, that's pretty good really. The damage can get a bit better with a spear/blade on the charge with the sub-faction artefact for 2 mortal wounds on every 6 to hit.

Koatl's Claw Coalesced Seraphon
Oldblood, General, Trait: Dominant Predator
Scar Vet Carno Artefact: Eviscerating Blade - ~25 damage is nothing to scoff at.
Slann - Artefact: Aetherquartz Brooch
Starseer
Starpriest - either of these two skink heroes could be dropped for an Astrolith Bearer, but their spells are good, and they let you drop endless spells turn 1 more reliably and buff saves. Bumping the 40 saurus to a 2+ save re-rolling 1s looks pretty good. Probably sit the Slann outside of the terrain feature, and garrison it with the temple guard and 2 skink heroes, since the Guard can soak wounds for the Slann, or put the slann + skink heroes in and the guard sit out.
Sunclaw
40 x Saurus Warriors
20 x Saurus Warriors
20 x Saurus Warriors
5x Guard
7 drops, 1760 points. the last 240 could be another carno + maelstrom, an astrolith and a couple of endless spells, a sunblood, more sauce warriors/guard, or maybe screening skinks or terradons for something fast to hunt objectives.
20 warriors are actually a threat now, and since you can likely buff every unit in the army with the CP spam when needed (odds are ~2.83 CPs per turn + 1 from the battalion + .83 CPs per CP used by the general (average ~ 6 CPs total per initial CP), and .33 CPs per CP used by anyone else- for an average ~.5 CPs per 1 that they use).

Is it as good as salamanders/Terradon spam, 3 units of guard/skinks and a kroaknado? Maybe/probably not, but it's probably a decent list regardless. Much better than old Saurus lists, which were much more difficult to make work, and it'll have some excellent match ups vs factions that rely on 2 damage hits and/or low rend, like Orruks or Ogors. It might even be good against DoK and OBR with the good saves and potential mortal wound output, and the magic defense is excellent with the +1-3/1-2 to casting/unbinding rolls for the Slann (and possibly +1-2/+1 for the skink wizards as well if the Slann takes the spell for it), for taking on Nagash or Hallowheart CoS.

The main problem for Seraphon is probably going to be surviving those alpha strikes from factions like Tzeentch and CoS, since we'll generally be going second.

 

How exactly do the wounds count for the Salamander hunting pack? It says a wound of one on the wheel but says the Salamander has 3. If someone does say, 2 wounds to the dino, how does that work? Do i remove two of the handlers? Or add the wounds to the sally?

 

Salamanders have 3 wounds, skinks have 1. You always get a 4+ save. Skinks have 1 wound, so any wounds allocated to skinks kill models.
Wounds allocated to a salamander would go to a salamander, and remember that the next wound MUST go to the wounded model, so you should always put the wounds on skinks first, then salamanders/razordons take 3 wounds to kill before being removed.

 

Seeing all the previews I’m pretty excited to see how things play out.

It’s different and summoning suffered a lot but I think it really supports the match big monsters down the field style that I want from lizardmen without the insanity that was the old thinderquake with astrolith bearer.

I for one am on the hype train and can’t wait until my copy of the new book comes in.

 

I don't know if it's already been said or not, but our new terrain piece is pretty easily countered. For starters, it is set-up before sides are chosen, so you either risk it and put it on one deployment side and hope you win priority (50/50), or you place it near the center (best option to get better MW output) and hope you get the option to go first in the first battle-round.

The warscroll states you can garrison a unit when you go to deploy it, but states the terrain must be wholly within your territory, AND I assume it must bend to the battleplan rules of 9-12" away from enemy territory.

If you opted to place the terrain in the center to get more MW output, your opponent can block you out if they go first, because as long as they have a model within 3" of it, the core rules state you cant garrison it. If you placed it near the center and happened to go first, unless you LoSaT next to it, you wont be able to pop off its ability until the 2nd battle-round, since the effect happens in the hero phase, and garrisoning happens in the movement.

I hope I am wrong on some of this, because as I see it, our terrain piece is sooooo easily countered, that you shouldn't base your strategy on being able to use it. Its free, so of course bring it to the battlefield, but I find it disappointing.

 

What actually bothers me now is how to hold objectives, especially with Coalesced armies.

Spam skinks? But they will die quickly and run, if you don't spend CP on them/cast Harmony. But, probably, the way to go for Starborn.
Saurus? Expensive, so you'll have to build your force around them.
Knights? Expensive to, but low model count, but at least they are mobile.
Guard? Why ever bother with them, unless you want your slann to have 10 more wounds?

I think, 3-6 terradons/rippers are essential for coalesced to harass enemy backfield. 5 chameleon skinks are also a good choice for the same purpose.

But I am afraid, that Saurus is the only unit, that can actually steal objectives. Maybe, 40-man skinks units with clubs are not a bad choice too, IDK.

 

Just as an aside, Rerolling Ones (YouTube) just released a video of a Coalesced Thunder Lizard / TQT army against Skaven. They seem pretty upbeat about it, and mentioned how effective the sallies are.

 

Is it too soon to call for winners and losers?

Trogs now can cast Comet's Call and regenerate, the Starseer is actually usable now, but the Basties now have a damage table and no way to ignore MWs and EotG lost one attack bonus as Stega and now can only summon Warriors.

 

Watched the report. Salamanders rock! No, I mean ROCK! 2x packs of 4 are 640 pts. This is about 1/3rd of the army, but you can easily go with scoring/distraction with other stuff. He also didn't use Priests CA and reroll 1's. Sallies will melt anything with save 4+ or worse and no FnP.

Carnos are great horde eaters now. But, I think, ScarVets with spears are better at this task. 40 pts cheaper, but exploding 6's. No +1 to-hit CA, but 3+ rerolling 1's is still decent. More potential damage from the spear on charge. Koatl's Claw will give 1 more to-hit, while Thunderlizard's WT give 1 more attack. Give him dimensional blade for -3 rend on spear. And all this goodness is just for about 200 pts.

I think, running double or triple carnosaur lists with knights is worth it now.

 

Overall I'm really happy with all the changes, but I am slightly sad that the Carnos jaws are still rend -1 (like a wizards staff...) but I will say the extra to attacks and Jaw attacks balance it out.

 

I love the new trogs especially. I love monster wizards and regeneration so they just hit right in a sweet spot for me.

 

Ok, my imperssions.

Losers

5)Astrolith

He was a must-have in any shooting list before. His appication changed drastically and he is a key component in some lists, providing magical bonus and some additional protection. I just think, he should be about 100-120 pts for what is he doing now.

4)Chameleon Skinks

They weren't that popular before, but had some interesting utility. They didn't get better, lost their gimmicky ability, but cheaper only by 20 points. They should be same as 10 skinks, tbh. BUT. Coalesced lost their mobility, so now chameleons may be useful for stealing backfield objectives from weak 5-10 man units. Looks like Starborn don't need them at all, but I may be wrong.

3)Ripperdactyl

No comments. Destroyed in seconds. But they are pretty cheap and coalesced can have some benifit from them. With Chief they may even do some descent damage to low save units. But I think, that terradons will outclass them. They are faster, don't need to engage in combat and deal mortal wounds.

2)Guard

They've lost everything for an additional wound. They only use I can find for them is a unit of 5, defending Slann.

1)Eternity Warden

The only thing he could do is not done by Guard, but they do it better. And he takes leader slots, which we are tight on now. His CA is oldbloods, but worse. He is required for a battalion that you will never take. I converted one at the end of 1.0. Will use him as a Guard Alpha for Warcry.

Nerfed and buffed simultaniously.

-) Bastiladon. Got worse against mortal wounds and high rend, but way better vs no or low rend. Lost rerolls but always shoot 9 times and can do it twice. Significant price drop. I want to run them, since I love them. But, must admit, he is way less appealing in competitive games now.
-) Troglodon. Got better, but price-hiked. Actually, fighs worse than he used to. Spells and stuff are nice but slann can do the same but better for the same points. Jack of all trades, good at nothing.
-) EotG. The ability is worse and costs more now, but way better stat-wise and can put up a fight. Still a descent support unit.
-) Slann. Lost his summoning abilities, which he was taken for and CA is worse. But spells are better and he can generate CA, has decent artifacts and essencial for some lists. Kroak is better in most cases, I'm afraid, but not in every single one. Slanns are not going anywhere.
-) Skinks. Yes, wary fighter were their best ability. But don't forget, that they are our cheapest unit and got better save and melee weapons. The main problem is their low leadership in coalesced armies. Instantly, dread saurian has its use. Btw, in shadowstrike TH they can hit one chosen unit on 3+, if priest commands them. 80 shots, hitting on 3+ may also rereroll 1's. And every 6 to-wound is a mortal wound, if starvenom applied.

Winners.

5) Warriors

Now you can easily make them a centerpiece of an army. With proper support they hit like a truck and decently defended. Unfortunatley, they aren't flexible, like skinks were (and is) and not a great battleline filler and still meh in small units.

4) Salamanders

Unlike saurus, you will probably want them in any roset. They will melt anything with 5+ save or worse, devastate 4+ sv units and deal great damge to 3+ saves. And they are as good in melee (literally, if coalesced or TQT). Very expensive, but they worth their points. Not too survivable, unfortunately, and may flee, if coalesced, but you can play around it. Worse than Razordons against etherial, but etherial is not as popular as it used to be. 1 unit is autochoice in any build, imo.

3) Starseer

He is cheaper and all of his 3 abilities is very important for us. He gives CP and CP is critical now. He allows a unit a 3d6 charge, which is very good, when teleporting or deepstriking. Finally, his spell is awesome both offensively and defensively. You can skip this guy in magic-heavy lists (can, not must, you still want him) and a must-have against high armor enemies and for protection

2) Starpriest

This guy is going in any single list. His best ability is free and very strong offensively. He is a cheapest way to unlock Skinks lore and you always want 1 or 2 spells from it. There are no situation where you don't want him. Warscroll spell is still decent

1) Priest

Very cheap and very good support character. You may even want two of them, because his best ability is a bit random, but you want it to go off as often as possible, because it increases both mobility and saves. Combine with Seer for effective turn 1 charges. And command ability is basically oldblods, but for skinks. Shooting units will benifit from it a lot.

I just looked through all the warscrolls and realised, that most of them got better. Like only 6 units really suffered (above+scarvet), some changed or got a little benifit (above and razordons, kroxigors, etc.) and some are real winners (above +kroak, knights, Carnos) etc.

We may have to learn everything anew, but I'm absolutely not doom and gloom anymore.

P.S.: But really, how should we fight Naked Dorfs? I have ideas against OBR, Slaanesh, Rats and Ghouls. But Naked Dorfs... This thing scares me.

 

I think Kroxigors are fantastic now.

My other army is mawtribes and they match up very well vs a standard ogre squad. They are 20pts more then 3 ogres (140 vs. 120) but have a better armor save, and an additional primary attack that also has rend. Thier bites are also better. They have 2' range so they can fight behind chaff.

In their batallion they can run and charge, or gain an attack.

 

Eh, I wouldn't call them fantastic. They didn't get much from the update and has almost no synergy with other units. But they are ok. Kroxi fans should be happy.