AoS The new Battletome: A Discussion

http://www.lustria-online.com/threads/balewind-and-garrisons.24342/

 

Not quite. RAW indicate that modified rolls of 1+ will pass if you have a 1+ save, making the Basti immune to all rend, and only ever failing on natural 1s (use mystic shield to really make this shine).

From the core rules, “Save roll. The opposing player rolls a dice, modifying the roll by the attacking weapon’s Rend characteristic.... If the result equals or beats the Save characteristic of the models in the unit, the save succeeds...”

Also, “Modifiers can never reduce a dice roll to less than 1.”

While we all use the shorthand of modifying the save value by the rend of a weapon, that is actually not correct for save of 1+, as far as I can tell. This makes the Bastilodon incredibly durable with some healing and/or a mystic shield, and really needs MW to be taken down effectively.

 

This is actually great news. i think this will make the basti our most durable unit when combined with a skink priest which will make it so that even on the second wound profile we are ignoring -1 rend modifiers. coupled with the many sources of healing we have ( slaan spells, lifeswarm, EotG) i think any opponent will have an extremely difficult time removing our turtles from the field.

 

Wait... what? A roll of "1" isn't always a failure in AoS (at least for an armor save)? Yeah, I don't think my group would go for me saying my Basti auto saves any attack without rend.

 

I dont think he's saying that. i took me a couple reads to make sense of it. at a full wounds profile a bastilidon is immune to rend. because you will only fail on an "unmodified roll of 1." and because a save roll cant be reduced to below 1 via rend, the 1+ save takes effect in that scenario. say you roll a 2 for your save against an attack with a rend of -1. that brings the dice roll to a modified roll of one. which the RAW doesnt explicity state fails no matter what.
please tell me if this makes any sense i always feel like i explain things badly.

 

I personally think this whole bastiladon save rule is a cockup by gw. The way it's worded gives toy enough pause to raise an eyebrow at it nd until it's faqd, there's keys going to be debate about it. Especially if you playing a non seraphon player lol, they will never agree to this

 

that would be crazy if it worked that way. i gues we will have to wait and see what the FaQ says

 

This is exactly what I think was intended by the changes. We assume GW was out to nerf the Basti, but I think this was intended to be a defensive buff vs normal wounds to balance the lack of mortal wound protection. It makes the Bastilodon super tough at first, then the degrading save profile kicks in as it gets wounded. It’s less awkward than trying to write both a degrading save and rend resistance into the profile.

I agree that it will cause ‘debates’, mainly because almost everyone works out the effect of rend and save bonuses incorrectly. These are added to the dice roll (wording is usually add 1 to save rolls) but don’t actually modify the model’s save value. It is similar to the way many players apply modifiers before rerolls, when the rules clearly state the reroll happens first. It makes a big difference to outcomes but I’d say half the people I play with get it wrong.

I will be testing the 1+ saves out at a tournament in a couple of weeks (will discuss with TO before playing, of course). I expect significant resistance since I’ll be running a double bastilodon thunderquake templehost.

 

But doesn't this make a basti OP as heck for his cost? 2+ rerollable is virtual invincibility and since you have 10-12 wounds and can heal rapidly via various means, you cannot kill bastiladon, if you don't have mortal wounds.

After rereading a couple of times, I still don't get it, TBH.

Can you please explain, what happens, when basti recieve -1 rend hit and -2 rend hit and what will be the difference between 1+ and 2+ in this case?

 

It is actually a lot less invincible than things that already exist, like buffed stardrakes, which also have much higher damage output, and whose saves don’t degrade when wounded. It is just hard to land the first few wounds on a Bastilodon - once you do, it’s defence comes apart quickly.

No modifier can reduce a save roll to less than 1. Undamaged, the save value is 1+. Therefore, any roll that is not a natural 1 will succeed, since it will equal or beat the save value of 1+. A roll of 2, minus 1 or 2 due to rend will still be a 1, and will succeed.

Many units can force a ton of wound rolls (a lot of 2+ hit, 2+ wound, multiattack units out there). Even rerolling, you will fail a couple. Once the Basti is at a 2+ Save, rend starts having an effect. At Save 2+, rend 1 or higher causes natural rolls of 2 to fail. Even Mystic Shield can’t prevent this, since you would only be rerolling natural 1s (rerolls before modifiers). This continues as the save profile degrades.

Most armies also have a lot of ways to cause mortal wounds at range, so I think it will be easy to soften up the Basti before charging.

 

It is not crazy, that is rather straight forward, it just clashes with the shorthand mentality people have regarding saves, rolls and modifiers in general.

We also need to consider the 1+ save is bracketed to a 2+ after taking only 3 wounds, so roll a few 1s or take a spell with a few MWs and it melts to rend once more.

Overall it is decent but still far more vulnerable than it was before.

 

yes but that depends on if they do indead save on nat 1s they would be the only unit in the game that breaks the 1s always fail rule. every one is convinced it works a sertan way and no one agrees so like i said we will have to see

 

1. Nat 1s always fail. Even with a 1+ save. No rules are being broken.

 

and this is what im talking about evey one says something different there are 3 threads going right now all arguing this same point. regardless of what you think on the matter some one else is just as surten that your wrong it needs a FaQ and im just going to wait for it before i get my head in a tizy

 

I have to admit, I don’t see where the confusion comes from. Roll dice, apply modifiers, compare to target value. The rules (from the 16-page Core rules) clearly state how to do this correctly.

Compared to activation order shenanigans, this is really very straightforward. Just because the answer is not what some people want to see, doen’t mean it needs an FAQ.

Now the terrain piece on the other hand...

 

If it makes it any easier to visualize, just imagine the save column in the table said "2+, ignore rend" rather than "1+" on the first line. Same result, just worded differently.

 

Yea natural 1s always fail. This case of thinking about modifying the dice and not the save is normally not needed, as this is only relevant for a 1+ base save.

e.g rend 2 attack vs basti. Basti player rolls a 3. the roll is modified with -2 and becomes a 1. Basti player refers to warscroll which says 1+, the wound is saved. Even with 1000 rend the dice can not go lower than 1. However if the basti player rolls a natual 1, the save still fails.

As soon as the save is a 2+, the save roll will fail if the modified roll becomes a 1, so now it is entirely different, as the above -2 rend attack would make the roll of 3 into 1 modified 1, failing the save. With a 2+ save even a rend 1 attack will cause a roll of 2 to be modified to a 1 and failing, so after the basty takes the first 2 wounds, it will already bracket there and be fully vulnerable to rend as "normal".

No other model has a 1+ base save, which is why this has not come up before.

 

and there you go my point has been made in less then 10 posts you guys have fun

 

They're both saying the same thing; A naturally rolled 1 will fail, while a roll of 2-6 that is then reduced by modifiers to 1 will not.

 

your right my bad i quoted the wrong person