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8th Ed. What is the very best Army Book lore of magic?

Discussion in 'Other Armies Discussion' started by NIGHTBRINGER, Jun 16, 2021.

  1. Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl
    Slann

    Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl Eleventh Spawning

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    Of course, because you can destroy his magic items with it... I feel a sudden need to buy a Slann and some more Temple Guard.

    1. Walk Between Worlds: A wonderful spell that can make speed of your Saurus units into combat and make it capable of beating a unit of Chaos Warriors on turn 1. Ethereal + a free fly move (or flying march if you cast the boosted version) is perfect.
    2. Fiery Convocation: Watch an enemy unit burn, and then force your opponent to throw away some dispel dice to stop it burning that unit further. The only thing stopping it beating Walk Between Worlds is that some units (K’daai and any character with the Dragonhelm or Dragonbane Gem) have near-as-damn-it immunity to it, and that it’s a lot less effective against low model-count units.
    3. Arcane Unforging: Destroy one of your opponent’s magic items on a 2+! No use against any unit without any magic items though.
    4. Apotheosis: Great for healing characters and monsters so you don’t need to waste points on healing potions and whatnot.
    5. Tempest: A 30” large blast weapon with only D6” scatter plus a -1 to all to Hit rolls debuff is always nice to have, though with its low Strength of 3 against most units it’s only really effective against chaff troops.
    6. Soul Quench: By far the better of the two(!) signature spells available (another bonus I forgot to mention), 2D6 Strength 4 hits, with the option to increase it to 4D6, is great fun, though the 18” range is limiting.
    7. Hand of Glory: Can be useful if it helps your Saurus to fight first or gets your Saurus Cavalry to move faster, but otherwise hit-and-miss.
    8. Drain Magic: Pretty much pointless given you need to roll dice to stop remains in play spells anyway, but has a use if your opponent is packing a lot of them into his army.
    To be honest all the High Magic attributes are decent but situational, but I think the best one has to be the Lizardman one, which maximises your chances of getting the best spells in the lore, and makes your Slann an unpredictable threat that your opponent will have to keep adapting his tactics to deal with. It isn’t so good if you were lucky enough to get the best spells first time when rolling to generate them at the start of the battle, but you can then instead use it to generate spells from another lore, resulting in mix-and-match fun.

    The High Elf one is a great one if your Wizard’s unit has an established Ward (such as Phoenix Guard) or if you can get a lot of spells off, but not very effective if you didn’t have a Ward Save to start with or a very low one.

    The Wood Elf one can be fun, but doesn’t stop much of the damage if your Wood Elf unit is hit by a blast template or a load of high-Strength attacks. I think this one is the worst one.
     
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  2. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

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    You're only ethereal during the movement phase. So the spell won't help the Saurus beat the Chaos Warriors.

    Personally this is my least favourite in the lore and is always the first I consider trading away.

    It is also useful for negating the effects of hex or augment spells that are not remains in play spells (which you normally wouldn't be able to do).

    A great spell to cast (the boosted version) on a large unit of Razordons, as it helps all of their stats in significant ways. Obviously the BS boost is the most applicable, but if they are in combat a quick boost to their WS and Initiative should not be underestimated.
     
  3. Lizards of Renown
    Slann

    Lizards of Renown Herald of Creation

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    Totally. From a fluff viewpoint, it was quite good actually. Tzeentch turning on his legions or being fickle fits quite well with all of that has been said about the god. From a gameplay viewpoint, infuriating as f**k.

    Okay, so:

    1. Curse of the Horned Rat.
    This takes the top spot for two reasons: 1. It is a ridiculously powerful spell (3D6 infantry dead, no saves of ANY kind and possibly creates a Skaven unit free of charge) even if a high casting cost and 2. it also has a fear factor, meaning because the rest of spells are relatively low casting cost you have to make sure you as the opponent have enough dispel dice to still stop this one from happening.

    2. Warp Lightning
    Fantastic spells with high strength (D6 S5 hits) and low casting cost (6+) which can be buffed to 2D6 hits (12+). Because it's the signature spell, you can therefore have a whole bunch of cheap casters that can try doing this, especially when your opponent has run out of dispel dice. Even with a Lvl 1 or 2 caster you still have a decent chance of getting it off with one dice.

    3. Howling Warpgale
    Essential for a Skaven army, either 24 inch -1 to hit or a 48 inch -1 to hit. Perfect for protecting your squishy troops that really want to maintain rank bonus.

    4. Death Frenzy
    Fantastic buff, either normal Frenzy or Death Frency (+2 attacks) makes clanrats and skavenslaves suddenly pretty dangerous. We all learned the value of multiple attacks from @NIGHTBRINGER's fantastic best of the best contest so this really has a lot of use.

    5. Cracks call
    Decent initiative test attacks with no saves. 4D6 length so a bit variable on how much damage it will do.

    6. Scorch
    Small template S4 flaming attacks causing panic. Only downside is it potentially scatters. Still fairly good.

    7. Warpstorm
    It's okay for all units in 12" suffering D6 strength 5 hits on a 4+, but also hits your own troops on a 6+.

    -

    Still, none of the spells are crappy and the top ones have great synergy with the Skaven Army. Hopefully I haven't disappointed @NIGHTBRINGER as I don't have your extent of experience to really give a thorough rundown.
     
  4. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

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    In my opinion the lores of Slaanesh over the last few editions have always felt more Tzeentchy. The Slaanesh lores are always devious, subtle, scheming and require more foresight to best employ... which seems to fit better with what Tzeentch is supposed to represent. In the meantime, the Tzeentch lores for the most part tend to be straight forward damage dealers.

    Well, I just learned something new. For years I thought this spell was called the Dreaded Thirteenth Spell. I've been calling it that for years. After reading your entry it took me a while to notice that the spell is actually called the "Curse of the Horned Rat". I don't know how this evaded my notice for all these years. :oops:

    As for the models affected, doesn't it effect 4d6 models instead of 3d6? (which only makes it better).

    Back in the previous edition of WoC, it was possible to create an all but invincible Chosen unit that had a 4+ 3++ save and was stubborn. I used to joke that it had the special rule "Immune to Warhammer"... this spell was the one single thing that the unit feared!

    Where does it state that this is the signature spell of lore?

    Where is this spell located? I'm not seeing this the the Skaven Spells of Ruin page. The only spells I see are:
    upload_2021-6-26_0-33-36.png

    Speaking of which, you didn't discuss Skitterleap.


    It's good stuff. I have extremely limited experience with/against Skaven, so it was a great read!
     
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  5. Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl
    Slann

    Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl Eleventh Spawning

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    As a Skaven player, I can help you with regards to Curse of the Horned Rat.

    That spell is not part of the Lore of Ruin or Lore of Plague, it is a separate spell in its own lore (called the Dreaded Thirteenth Spell) that can only be taken by Grey Seers and Verminlords, who can mix and match it with spells from both the Lore of Ruin and Lore of Plague. Plague Priests and Warlock Engineers are too lowly to have the privilege of casting this rightly feared spell. @NIGHTBRINGER it’s on the Lore of Plague page in its own separate text box.

    Also @Lizards of Renown where did you get Warpstorm from? That is not one of the six Ruin spells as far as I know, and I have my Skaven book with me right now and cannot see it anywhere (unless your opponent in question was using Matthias Eliasson’s 8th Edition book, perhaps he replaced Skitterleap with a new Warpstorm spell, I’ve not bothered to look at his Skaven one because the 7th Edition book + End Times Thanquol units + lore attributes and signature spells added to the Lores of Ruin and Plague + altered magic items to suit 8th Edition convention is fine as a Skaven 8th update).
     
  6. Lizards of Renown
    Slann

    Lizards of Renown Herald of Creation

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    GAAGH!!!!

    @Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl is right, somehow an Eliasson book slipped it's way into my PDF rulebook storage.

    I'll redo my review once I find the 7th edition book PDF.

    I'm not sure I follow your updates reference.... I don't play end times rules, but where would I find 8th edition updates for the Skaven magic items?
     
  7. Lizards of Renown
    Slann

    Lizards of Renown Herald of Creation

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    Revised review:

    First off, I unfortunately withdraw my application for 2nd or 3rd place for the Skaven Lore of Ruin. Because I was looking at the unauthorised revision, a bunch of spells had been buffed or lowered in casting cost.

    It's still a good lore, but not near a top spot one.

    1. Skitterleap‎
    For 5+ casting to be able to move anywhere on the table (wizard or infantry character) this takes top spot for me. I love spells that can be used strategically. This spell (providing you are 1" away from enemies) means you can do easy warmachine hunting, character assasination, move a key character to a unit that is about to be charged, etc. Etc. Very versatile. Definitely my top spot.

    2. Howling Warpgale
    Essential for a Skaven army, no flyers can fly and all opponent missile attacks get -1 to hit. Perfect for protecting your squishy troops that really want to maintain rank bonus.

    3. Death Frenzy
    Fantastic buff, either normal Frenzy or Death Frency (+2 attacks) makes clanrats and skavenslaves suddenly pretty dangerous. We all learned the value of multiple attacks from @NIGHTBRINGER's fantastic best of the best contest so this really has a lot of use.‎

    4. Scorch
    Small template S4 flaming attacks causing panic. No scatter. Good attack spell.‎

    5. Cracks call‎
    Decent initiative test attacks with no saves. 4D6 length so a bit variable on how much damage it will do.

    6. Curse of the Horned Rat.
    This is a great spell, but due to 25+ casting means it only gets number 6. Still a big threat but a lot less easy to cast (unless you are buffing the wizard with warpstone (you can roll an additional D6 for every counter used) but again there is the danger of micast and also any 1's with the warpstone dice cause an automatic wound). If you can get it off, it's a game changer (4D6 infantry dead, no saves of ANY kind and possibly creates a Skaven unit free of charge). Unfortunately, it's 25+ means you'll very rarely get this off.

    7. Warp Lightning
    Medium attack spell with high strength (D6 S5 hits) and low casting cost (6+), but because of the rolling a 1 thing (where the caster gets the hit) it becomes medium-low.
     
  8. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

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    I had found the spell, but somehow my brain had skipped over the "Curse of the Horned Rat" text in place of the much larger text that reads "The Dreaded Thirteenth Spell". :oops: Funny how that works.
     
  9. Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl
    Slann

    Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl Eleventh Spawning

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    There aren’t any, I was merely saying that all you’d really need to make a decent homebrew Skaven 8th Ed book to line it up with all the others is to use the 7th Edition book as a base, add in the End Times units and reworked Thanquol, add signature spells and lore attributes to the lore of Plague and Ruin and update the magic items to reflect the 8th Edition mantra of few unique magic items.

    Compared to the Beastmen book I’m currently writing which has spliced together a fair amount of stuff from 6th plus the better stuff from 7th, and some new units I’ve introduced myself, plus the poor Lore of the Wild being replaced with the three Chaos lores, plus magic items being reworked, plus a tweaking of Gifts of Chaos... in short, a lot of work.
     
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  10. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

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    Here goes.

    Unlike the Lore of Vampires, I feel that the Lore of Slaanesh (LoS), has a couple of "dud" spells, or more specifically, spells that are situational. However, what the lore has, are some of the very best spells in the game (but only if the general is savvy enough to unlock their potential).

    Before I get into why I think the Lore of Slaanesh is extremely awesome, let me summarize what I feel are some of its shortfalls:
    • poor lore attribute
    • underwhelming signature spell (I would very rarely trade for it)
    • a few situational spells
    • requires a bit more strategy, foresight and skill to properly employ

    Before we get to the really good stuff, lets look at what I feel are the 4 weaker spells of the lore:

    Lash of Slaanesh
    (signature spell)➨ more often than not, I'd consider this to be the very weakest that the LoS has to offer. It requires exceptionally fortunate positioning in order to effect a large enough number of models to make it potentially worthwhile and even then, it's only inflicting S3 hits.

    Pavane of Slaanesh➨ a sniper spell that is hampered by the fact that it only has the potential to inflict a single wound. If your opposition has mediocre leadership (especially when outside of the general and BSB bubbles) it has a very good chance of going through (as it ignores armour), but the single wound limitation really hurts it. A situational spell that will come in handy once in a while, but is nothing special.

    Slicing Shards➨ this is LoS' version of LoN's "Rancid Visitations", only not nearly as good. The LoN offering is at S5 and involves a toughness test to continue dealing damage while Slicing Shards is only S4 (though armour piercing) and replaces the toughness test with a leadership test. This means that Slicing Shards is more or less limited to units outside of the general/BSB. That said, should you successfully land it on an isolated target with poor leadership, it can be very effective.

    Phantasmagoria➨ a reverse cold blooded. Obviously not as good against certain armies (DoC, TK, VC), but even against these it has its uses as it couples nicely with Pavane of Slaanesh, Hysterical Frenzy (failed frenzy checks) and especially Slicing Shards. Against other armies, the effect on their leadership tests has all sorts of uses, including the panic tests caused by the Hellcannon (which are already at -1 leadership). A useful spell (sometimes VERY useful), but not what makes the LoS so good in my eyes.


    Now we get to what makes the LoS really shine, which are its top 3 spells. The game of Warhammer is won and lost in the movement phase!! All the other phases of the game rely directly on the movement phase; whether that be setting up advantageous close combats or moving into shooting/magic range (or moving to neutralize enemy shooting/magic threats). The movement phase ultimately dictates who will win and who will lose, so a spell lore that has not one, not two, but THREE ways to control enemy movement is extremely dangerous in the right hands. The LoS literally gives you the ability to seize control of your opponent's army from him/her. Without further ado,

    Hysterical Frenzy➨ a RIP hex/augment that allows you to grant frenzy to one of your units or one of your opponents units (the affected unit also suffers D6 S3 hits at the end of each magic phase, but this is pretty inconsequential). This versatile spell has a lot to offer:
    • cast it on your troops to increase their attack output (this is the most simplistic and obvious use). This also works on units that already have frenzy. The ideal target for the spell would be something like the Skullcrushers as it would grant +1 attack to both the rider and the Juggernaut mount. We know how good Skullcrushers are, now imagine them with 8 attacks per model!! Additionally, if you cast the spell on something that isn't Frenzied to start, you can avoid a potential forced pursue/overrun by ending the spell prior to having to make such a move (RIP spells can be ended at anytime by the controlling player).
    • casting it on your troops to make them Immune to Psychology (due to Frenzy)
    • casting it on an opponent in an attempt to have them fail their Frenzy check and force them into a poor charge [controlling enemy movement]
    • casting it on an opponent to force them to overrun/pursue when it is disadvantageous for them to do so. Excellent in the chaff/redirection game [controlling enemy movement]
    As good as Hysterical Frenzy is, the two best spells of the Lore are Acquiescence and Cacophonic Choir. Although Cacophonic Choir is usually the more feared of the two spells, Acquiescence in many people's eyes is just as good if not better than Cacophonic Choir due to its extremely modest casting cost and its increased range. Cacophonic Choir obviously has the added effect of damaging enemy units (even when engaged in CC) and can be bubbled. At the heart of both hex spells, they both impart ASL and Random Movement (D6). It is these effects I will discuss below:

    Acquiescence and Cacophonic ChoirStraight away, ASL is amazing for neutralizing the ASF (and re-rolls to hit) that those pesky Elves enjoy. This is a huge bonus against the Elves, who account for some of the very strongest armies in the game. Additionally, against other armies, ASL can be very useful in giving WoC's less initiative-inclined units (Trolls, Ogres, etc.) a chance to strike before their enemies. Now onto the many uses of the Random Movement (D6) effect:
    • neutralizing the greatest asset of quick moving units (fast cavalry, flyers, etc) by preventing them from being able to move into a position where they can do their work. A flyer for instance will have its 20" flying march move reduced to an average of 3.5".
    • keeping out-of-position units from re-entering the game
    • preventing an enemy unit from charging anything outside of 6" (as their charge distance will be limited to D6")
    • all but assuring that a victorious enemy CC unit will be unable to successful catch and destroy your unit that broke from combat (the enemy will pursue D6")
    • all but assuring that your victorious CC unit will successfully catch and destroy your opponent's unit that has broken from combat (they only flee D6")
    • greatly increasing the chances of catching a fleeing enemy unit on the table when you declare a charge against it (they only flee D6")
    • forcing "Move or Fire" units to move, and thereby preventing them from shooting (this is great against War Machines)
    • forcing a unit to move that is under a spell (or terrain effect) that penalizes them for doing so
    • setting up bottlenecks, where units behind the affected unit are now limited in how/where they can move
    The possibilities are nearly endless. The effect on the game is catastrophic. Admittedly it is not as easy to implement as a lore that simply deals out a bunch of damage, but in the right hands it literally allows a player to remove his/her opponent's control of their army. It is a finesse lore that is a bit more subtle in its effects, but offers something that can't be found in any other lore. It is a tactician's delight.

    If playing the lore of Slaanesh I always recommend that it be fielded on a level 4 wizard with a Chaos Familiar. You really want to obtain the best three spells of the lore, and rolling for 5 spells greatly increases the odds.

    Anyways, that's probably enough for now. Thoughts, comments?
     
  11. Lizards of Renown
    Slann

    Lizards of Renown Herald of Creation

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    Great write-up and summary matey (as always).

    Some great points. Totally agreed on the movement phase being THE phase.

    Still awkward to get these spells. Mitigated I know by taking a level 4 but still a bit chancy.

    That all said, I'll be taking a new look at the spells based on this new viewpoint. It's unfortunate that Khorne is my army's patron and he hates Slaneesh... but depending on circumstance I could give him Mark of Slaneesh.
     
  12. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

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    That's why I always take the Chaos Familiar upgrade; having 5 spells really improves the odds. You're automatically guaranteed to get 2 of the 3 best spells, and you have a very good chance of getting all 3.
     
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  13. Lizards of Renown
    Slann

    Lizards of Renown Herald of Creation

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    Good point.

    But I'll have to check the DoC rulebook as I don't think they have this... only WoC...
     
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  14. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

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    I'd imagine it's only a WoC thing, but I'm not too familiar with the DoC book (it is one of the last hardcover 8th edition I still need to acquire). Not sure if the DoC have some sort of equivalent.
     
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  15. Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl
    Slann

    Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl Eleventh Spawning

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    Just checked a PDF I have of the Daemon book and it doesn't appear they do, that must be a specific WoC advantage (and it would be wouldn't it, given GW's evident rules-writing bias? :rolleyes:).

    But that's fine, I haven't given an equivalent to my Beastman rules either, they and the Daemons will just have to hope they get lucky when rolling on the lore table.
     
  16. Lizards of Renown
    Slann

    Lizards of Renown Herald of Creation

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    I'll check shortly. I seem to recall some kind of magic buff ability, but not a +1 spell or spell casting level.

    My basic theory here is that Games Workshop is run by WoC and they are subtlely grooming an entire generation into the idea that being a Chaos Warrior is cool.

    Some time soon, they'll send in the raptors and recruit all of the youngsters.

    Judging by the last two years, it's mainly funded and run by Nurgle.
     
  17. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

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    As well it should be. We all know that the WoC and CD are the best Chaos armies. And it is well established that the NIGHTBRINGER is impartial and unbiased in his assessments/assertions. :angelic:

    :D
     
  18. Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl
    Slann

    Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl Eleventh Spawning

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    Actually, in AoS Nurgle is one of the worst armies right now with the oldest book currently in circulation. If the Plaguefather was in command that wouldn't be happening.

    I'd say Slaanesh is in charge given that ridiculous second wave they got so soon after their first one.
     
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  19. NIGHTBRINGER
    Slann

    NIGHTBRINGER Second Spawning

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    I'd say that Slaanesh deserves it. Slaanesh has long been the forgotten, unsupported and marginalized Chaos god.
     
  20. Lizards of Renown
    Slann

    Lizards of Renown Herald of Creation

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    I was referencing to Covid mate. I'm not tracking at all on the AoS scene ;)
     

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