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AoS Tactics for other Armies

Discussion in 'Seraphon Tactics' started by Killer Angel, Jan 6, 2016.

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  1. Killer Angel
    Slann

    Killer Angel Prophet of the Stars Staff Member

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    :p
    Really strong. The only countermeasure I can think of, is "keep them at a distance and shoot!"
    This thread gives me satisfactions. ;)
     
    Killer Angel, Jan 25, 2016
    #61
  2. Bainbow
    Bastiladon

    Bainbow Well-Known Member

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    However the Bad Moon Icon gives a save bonus vs shooting and the Gobbos get a +2 to running with a Gong Basher, plus with their Bravery bonus from being at a range they do surprisingly have the survivability to take on a ranged army.
     
    Bainbow, Jan 25, 2016
    #62
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  3. Tlac'Natai the Observer
    Cold One

    Tlac'Natai the Observer Active Member

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    I'd like to request an army build. My buddy has the Khorne Bloodbound from the starter kit, and he hasn't been able to figure them out. I haven't tried playing them myself, but I feel like it shouldn't be that hard. We play around 50 wound games (all of us still collecting), but if you take it to 125w, I'd like to know what kind of composition you would run with.
     
    Tlac'Natai the Observer, Jan 26, 2016
    #63
  4. StealthKnightSteg
    Razordon

    StealthKnightSteg Well-Known Member

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    Well the most obvious being to get into combat asap (command abilities from Might Lord and Bloodstoker help here) and then doing insane amounts of damage. Bloodreavers in this are a glas cannon together with the Bloodsecrator (going from 1 attack per model to 3 if banner is planted), blood warriors also great for doing twice the damage (first attack them selfs and then retalliate if being attacked back). I'll need to look into the rest a bit more..
    Problem I see most is getting most of your troops to do the initial strike in a combat so making the odds good for you always have an off number of combats going (1..3..5..7)
     
    StealthKnightSteg, Jan 26, 2016
    #64
  5. Tlac'Natai the Observer
    Cold One

    Tlac'Natai the Observer Active Member

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    What he ends up doing every game is planting the banner and then rushing the Bloodreavers outside of its range. He can't figure out when he should be placing his banner down because he also doesn't want one full turn where he gets charged and is useless in melee. I keep telling him to have the Bloodwarriors escort the banner up front and have the Reavers come in behind that, not leading the charge.

    Does this sound like the right thing to do? I would ask a chaos forum but I don't have access to those websites at work (which is where I do most of my L-O perusing)
     
    Tlac'Natai the Observer, Jan 26, 2016
    #65
  6. Bainbow
    Bastiladon

    Bainbow Well-Known Member

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    You sure? I can make a 50 wound list instead of my normal 125, if you'd like.
     
    Bainbow, Jan 26, 2016
    #66
  7. Killer Angel
    Slann

    Killer Angel Prophet of the Stars Staff Member

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    if it's not too much work, you could do the usual 125, then propose a reduced version of 50, keeping the basic tactic of the main list (if it's feasible, of course. Some things require a certain amount of wounds, and sometime 50 is not enough)
     
    Killer Angel, Jan 26, 2016
    #67
  8. Tlac'Natai the Observer
    Cold One

    Tlac'Natai the Observer Active Member

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    I know there's a battalion set for them too, and I believe it's actually more like 54 wounds total for the whole battalion, so go with whatever is easier for you. I'm mostly curious with how a mock battle report might play out with these guys, when to charge, where the units should be placed in relation to each other, etc.

    Like I said before, he hasn't won a game with them yet, and we're all new so we're all making a few mistakes, but I really want to see this army do well, because there's no way he's THAT bad, just might not be the army for his play style.
     
    Tlac'Natai the Observer, Jan 26, 2016
    #68
  9. Killer Angel
    Slann

    Killer Angel Prophet of the Stars Staff Member

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    There were no requests for Tomb Kings, but I suppose you will not protest if i plan a tactic for them, right? ;)
     
    Killer Angel, Jan 26, 2016
    #69
  10. Bainbow
    Bastiladon

    Bainbow Well-Known Member

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    I can do that. Though I'll have to wait until Saturday because I don't have access to the Bloodbound battalion, so I'll need to peek at a copy at the GW.
     
    Bainbow, Jan 27, 2016
    #70
  11. Bainbow
    Bastiladon

    Bainbow Well-Known Member

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    Go for it. I actually wrote a Tomb King army a short while ago, they're such insanely powerful faction it's scary, Settra is a monster. I'm curious to compare your build to the one I did.
     
    Bainbow, Jan 28, 2016
    #71
  12. Killer Angel
    Slann

    Killer Angel Prophet of the Stars Staff Member

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    Now I'm curious too... :D
    The list is almost complete, so stay tuned.
     
    Killer Angel, Feb 1, 2016
    #72
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  13. Bainbow
    Bastiladon

    Bainbow Well-Known Member

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    Actually I feel rather eager to do two undead lists now back to back since an undead player friend asked me for advice on tomb kings vs vampires and I noticed a major playstyle difference between the two armies. Basically it's quality vs quantity. The Tomb Kings have a lot of hit and wound modifiers that turn their troops into total murderers that can really wreck you, while the vampires seem to focus on bonuses to casting to get more troops as fast as possible for a zerg rush type focus.
     
    Bainbow, Feb 1, 2016
    #73
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  14. Killer Angel
    Slann

    Killer Angel Prophet of the Stars Staff Member

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    TOMB KINGS


    …and he did say “war”, and the world will tremble…

    TK is a very strong army... but probably not an easy one to use. They have a lot of synergies, so you must be careful when you select your units, and how you field and manoveur them, to obtain the full potential of the desert storm. And once you master it, the enemy will have a hard time taking you down, because many of your units can bring slain models back to unlife.


    Brief Units’ analysis (Heroes)

    Settra: This guy is one of the best unit in all AoS. If Settra is the general, your other heroes may use their command ability. This alone is really too good to don’t exploit it. And this is only the beginning: 8 wounds, save at 3+ and a further save of 5+ against unsaved and mortal wounds, additional attacks on charge, can double the movement of other units, can give +1 to all hit rolls to death units and also +1 to wound to deathrattle units (these ones in the combat phase). You will obviously use him as general, so let’s see what the other heroes can bring on the table.

    Khalida: as command ability, gives +1 to hit to skeletons in the shooting phase. If this wasn’t enough, her ranged attack (18”) does d6 dam.

    Tomb King: as command ability, gives +1 to hit / run / charge to skeletons.

    Tomb King on chariots: as command ability, let reroll charges’ rolls of the other chariots.

    Royal wasphinx: even tougher than the Ogre’s stonehorn: 12 wounds, halves any wounds / mortal wounds inflicted to hit.. and it can be cured. Command ability: +1 to wound for mummy / deathrattle units in combat phase

    Tomb herald: no command ability, but can “resurrect” slain models and works as bodyguard for heroes, in a way similar to Seraphons’ Eternity Warden.

    Liche Priest: with the spell “righteous smiting”, your skeletons / reanimants, will make an extra attack for each 6+ to hit roll. This can be insanely good.

    Necrotect: as ability, can give a deathrattle unit, +3" move and reroll 1s. Pretty solid.

    Basically all are exceptional heroes, but you should pick them to support your army’s units. Use them wisely, and your mediocre units, will become awesome elite troops. For the following lists, I’ll use the aforementioned heroes and the “troops” needed for the formations, so no Bone Giants or similar things, even if they can be amazing.



    Army List & strategy (125 wounds)


    Every army should include Settra. That said, what Formation should we use?


    The royal legion of chariots uses, well, a lot of chariots. Some mortal wounds on charge, and + 1 to all to hit.

    If you use all your available buffs ( given by Settra, Khalida, a standard tomb king, a liche priest and royal warsphinx), every model of Skeleton Chariot, will have:
    Shoooting: 2 attacks with bows at 5+ to hit (but you can have a grand total of +4… with Righteous Smiting, this means additional attacks for each roll of 2+… you are going to score a really huge amount of hits!), that will wound at 4+.
    Combat: 2 spear attacks (4 on charge), that hit at 4+ (and you’ll have a +3 to hit, thus additional attacks on each roll of 3) and wounds at 4+ (with a +2 to wound) AND 4 hooves attacks (8 on charge!), that hit at +4 (again, +3 to hit, so you fail only with 1, and additional attacks for each 3+) and wound at 5+ (with +2).
    No rend, but a really huge amount of potential damage: 3 chariots on charge, are going to roll 36 dices to hit, with additional attacks for every natural 3. Even considering 1s as a failure, we’re still talking about 90 rolls to wounds at 2+/3+… almost 70 wounds to be saved, with a single charge by 3 chariots!
    And with the Necrotect, you will reroll the 1s to wound!

    With a 125 wounds army, you can field:

    Settra (8), Khalida (5), Tomb King (6), tomb king of chariot (8), a couple of liche priests (5+5), a tomb herald on steed (5), a Necrotect and the warsphinx (12) (total heroes: 59 wounds)

    Skeleton chariots (5 wounds each): 1 units of 4, 3 units of 3 (total 65 wounds)

    The tactic is simple: you have superior move, keep your distance ad shoot with bows… each turn, buff a single chariot unit, and crush your target: it will be easy to do, since (tnx to one of Settra’s abilities), that unit will have move 20” fly, plus the bonus granted by the Necrotect. You’ll have a +1” on charges, cannot roll less than 6” and can reroll charges. Basically, you are 100% sure to hit units at 30” range, as a minimum.

    You are going to win with wave attacks, using each time a full buffed unit of chariots. In the meantime, you shoot with ranged attacks and (if there’s need), proceed to summon some additional units. And if it’s the case, you can always let your royal wasphinx to have some fun.

    Obviously, there are dangerous units that can mess with your plans, and you must deal with them in the proper way: you shouldn’t charge units with stand and shoot, such as Empire’s handgunners or razordons (deal with them with shooting and magic). If you’re facing potentially dangerous units (night goblins that may or may not hide fanatics), charge ‘em with summoned units, without wasting the ones of the formation. Avoid units way too strong in defense, that can be easily ignored (a full buffed unit of 20 Eternal guards, with saves at 2+ rerollable but cannot move).

    Keep also in mind that, even if the enemy weakens with magic / shooting a unit of your chariots, the fallen ones will be back in your hero phase (let’s consider a unit of 3 chariots: the enemy manages to inflict 14 wounds to the unit: 2 chariots are killed and the remaining one got 1 wound… in your hero phase, the 2 dead chariots are still on the run, tnx to Tomb Herald and Icon Bearer. Your full 3 chariot unit is ready to charge).


    And now, let’s take a quick look at Tomb Legion formation (125 wounds):

    You need a Tomb King, a liche priest, 2 units of skeleton warriors, 2 of skeleton archers, 1 of Tomb Guard, 1 of (choose between chariots, horsemen, horse archers or necropolis knights).
    Basically, you’ll employ a far wider array of units than Legion of chariots, so things can be more complicated, because your units are slow, and this will force you to play with a more defensive style, letting the initiative in the enemy’s hands… but you don’t really need the King on chariot, so you’ll save his wounds.

    Formation’s bonuses: for each roll of 6+ to wound in combat phase, you make one extra attack (sweet!), a Liche Priest is the Hierophant: for each model slain within 18”, roll a dice, and save it on a 6 (good, given that your saves are pitiful).
    That said, you must use the same powerful synergies of the chariots legion.

    heroes:

    Settra (8), Khalida (5), Tomb King (6), a couple of liche priests (5+5), a tomb herald on steed (5) and the warsphinx (12) (total heroes: 46 wounds)

    Troops: (total 79 wounds)

    1 unit of 20 skeleton archers (you need it for the additional attack: nothing survives 40 attacks that hit on a 2+, generating further attacks each time you roll a 3+).

    1 unit of 10 skeleton archers.

    2 units of 10 skeleton warriors (these guys can be really deadly: 1 extra attack for 20 models, 2 extra attacks for 30 models… combine it with +2 to hit and generate further attacks on 4+, and you will need a bucket to throw dices. Sadly, we don’t have so many wounds to spare, and the legion requires many units.)

    1 unit of 14 tomb guard (passable save at 5+, that can be increased to 4+ with mystic shield and 3+ if you don’t move). Each guard got 2 attacks, they have rend -1 (finally!), and on a roll to wound of 6 or more they inflict double damage. Combine it with the fact that 6+ lets also you to make another attack, and you should see the potential… but just to be clear: buff them with your heroes: they do 29 attacks. Tnx to the righteous smiting of the priest, each 4+ to hit means another attack… we’re talking about a lot of successful hits. When you do the wound rolls, tnx to the +2 given by Settra and Royal warsphinx, each roll of 4 + threatens double damage and generates another attack… that hits at +2, for further attacks… You get the idea. Literally nothing can survive.
    And if you squeeze a Necrotect in the army, you will also reroll the 1 to wound, thus meaning even more damage.

    For the unit to choose, I’d pick 3 Necropolis Knights (15 wounds), as your long range hitter: they move at 8” (16” flying tnx to Settra): the poisoned fangs alone do 3 attacks for each model (rend -1, d3 damage), that inflict an additional mortal wound for each 6+ to wound. The trick is the same: buff the to hit and generate additional attacks, buff the unit with a +2 to wound, and you’ll end with a massive number of attacks that inflict mortal wounds and additional attacks for each 4+

    The simplest tactic is to play defensively: the knights will kill some dangerous target, your archers will wreck a unit (or more) each round, the skeletons warriors will work as disposable units to stop contemporary attacks by many units (such as a mass attack from a Goblins’ spiderfang mob) and then you counterattack with the Tomb Guards. Summon when needed.
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2016
    Killer Angel, Feb 1, 2016
    #74
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  15. Bainbow
    Bastiladon

    Bainbow Well-Known Member

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    Not bad. I like that it uses the battalions because my build doesn't, so it makes for a nice contrast and difference between our builds. I'll get to writing mine now, plus a Vampire army. I want to cover all of Undead.
     
    Bainbow, Feb 1, 2016
    #75
  16. Bainbow
    Bastiladon

    Bainbow Well-Known Member

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    Alright then. For any broad Undead player who likes all of the Death faction, a question many ask is "should I lean towards just Vampires or Tomb Kings, or can I mix? If I can't mix, which faction should I lean for?" This question was asked of me just this Saturday and it lead me to really look at the playstyles of each of these armies. What do they offer, how should they be rolled? Well, despite all being one superfaction seemingly capable of being mixed easily, the truth is that they really shouldn't be mixed. This is because Tomb Kings are all about powerful units, while Vampires are all about unending hordes, and mixing these together results in something neither powerful nor unending, diluted experiences of what they could have been. So let's look at both. (Oh, and that Bloodbound army is coming this Wednesday, I just need a copy of the Battletome for a look at the battalions.) So, seeing as Killer over there just did Tomb Kings, perhaps my interpretation of the army is a good place to start. You know how it goes now, 125 Wounds.

    Tomb Kings

    Settra the Imperishable (8)
    Khalida (13)
    Tomb King (19)
    Royal Warsphinx (31)
    3 Sepulchral Stalkers (46)
    Liche Priest (51)
    35 Skeleton Archers (86)
    39 Tomb Guard (125)

    First rule about Tomb Kings, Settra is Da Best. Seriously, this guy's insane. Remember Archaon? Remember his grossly overpowered Command Ability that lets you use everyone's Command Ability? Yeah well to hell with that, Settra does it as a normal ability. Yeah, how ridiculous is that? He basically has two Command Abilities, his own and Archaon's. And what's his own? +1 To Hit for everyone nearby and +1 To Wound or all those Skeletons, but all only in the combat phase. We'll come back to this one later. For now let's talk about Settra in combat, as one of the rare heroes capable of actually doing well in melee. Unsurprising, the dude's bloody Settra, he's the biggest badass since Gotrek, his Strength stat in 8th was the same as a flipping dragon's, and even centuries later in the Age of Sigmar he still just radiates badass the same way Mannfred radiates mediocrity. Settra hits harder than Ghal Maraz with his blade and his horses offer 8 weak attacks that have decent To Hit but suffer from a To Wound of 5+. However that doesn't matter because if you're fighting with Settra then you make sure that Settra has just charged, take it from me. On the charge Settra just does not give a fuck, he gets 2 more attacks with his blade, his horses get double the number of attacks, and the horses get +1 To Wound to make them actually competent. While most Monsters with heroes on the back average out to 15 attacks at most, Settra is rolling 22 good to really powerful attacks because he's Settra, this is what he does. In addition to being a roaring badass in melee and leadership, Settra's also a Priest so he can give one unit Fly and double movement which will help with manuevering, though on a roll of a 1 he takes a mortal wound from his gods as they smack him for doing the incantation wrong. That's okay though because any time Settra suffers a wound or mortal wound, he gets to make a 5+ ward save (after his normal save if it's not a mortal wound, his Save being 3+ by the way because Settra) so even if the gods decide to try to strike him down where he stands, he can just no sell it like a total beast because the gods are nothing next to Settra Himself. Fun fact, on the old on-foot model of Settra it literally has the words "Settra Himself" engraved on the base just so you know whose feet you'll be kissing.

    Moving away from Settra for a while, we have our main infantry. Begin the game with your archers in one big unit in a line in front of the rest of your entire army. As soon as your enemy gets close enough to shoot, then you blot out the sun with your arrows because the unit's horde bonus lets you double the number of shots you make. Hitting on 5+ and wounding on 4+ may not be that good, but then we make use of those Command Abilities that Settra gives us. Khalida will net your shooters +1 To hit, the Tomb King will net a unit another +1 To Hit, and the Tomb King in the Royal Sphinx will net a +1 To Wound against any one unit it can see. With all this, you'll be making 70 shots of 3+/3+. Ouch.

    Then when your enemy makes it into melee range to start messing up your archers, Settra can make his move. Using his Incantation of the Desert Winds, you can give your archers the ability to fly, letting them retreat from the enemy over your Tomb Guard, who will be lying in wait in another big unit line to act as a buffer for melee. The Tomb Guard, like the Temple Guard we know, are harder to summon back but while they lack the defense of our Temple Guard, they have a much more brutal offense which will really let them get stuck into the enemy units who should now be wounded and ragged from your archers' attacks up to this point. With a Mystic Shield from your Liche Priest they'll have a solid 4+ Save, and in turns where they don't charge they'll be rocking a 3+ Save from their Tomb Shields too. Respectable defense. However then we bring back the Command Abilities. +2 To Hit from Settra and the Tomb King, and +2 To Wound from Settra and the Sphinx and now you're rolling a 1+/2+ or a 2+/1+ depending on your weapon choice, either way you're getting an automatic hit or wound. However even if you take the halberds for the auto-wound, it's still worth rolling because on a 6+ the Tomb Guard hit at double damage. Normally okay, but due to our +2 To Wound, it's now on a 4+. Which is just brutal.

    Lastly, use your Sepulchral Stalkers like we use Chameleons. Hunt war machines and the like. And don't be afraid to let your Sphinx join combat too, between its high save, the Liche Priest's ability to heal it, the 12 Wounds, and the fact that it halves all wounds it takes, it's not going anywhere soon.

    And now it's midnight. I think I'll do Vampires tomorrow, actually.
     
    Bainbow, Feb 1, 2016
    #76
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  17. Killer Angel
    Slann

    Killer Angel Prophet of the Stars Staff Member

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    Finally yesterday I took a look at their battletome... IMO it's kinda disappointing. Few heroes, few units, a single monster that repeats itself on the 3 mounted heroes, and models that have an excessively similar look.
    I know GW wants money, but they could put a little more effort in what should be a brand new army for AoS.
     
    Killer Angel, Feb 3, 2016
    #77
  18. Bainbow
    Bastiladon

    Bainbow Well-Known Member

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    Personally I forgive it because I was willing to make a Slayer army when Slayers were just one unit and a hero. Much as I would like more content in the Battletome, Slayers are just so bleeding cool in my opinion that I don't really care, I'll make an army anyway.
     
    Bainbow, Feb 3, 2016
    #78
  19. StealthKnightSteg
    Razordon

    StealthKnightSteg Well-Known Member

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    So where are the Vampires then? o_O

    Anyway I think I can draw up another Empire list. More a theme army with some synergies then anything else.
    And I might give Bloodbound my own look as well..maybe..
     
    StealthKnightSteg, Feb 4, 2016
    #79
  20. StealthKnightSteg
    Razordon

    StealthKnightSteg Well-Known Member

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    Empire Thundering Hooves

    Going with the base of the Battalion Warscroll "Brotherhood of Knights" in which you need 4 units of Empire Knights or Demigryph Knights in any combination.
    The Brotherhood conveys: Glorious Charge +1A on your knights if they charged. // +1 Bravery

    As your General you are going to use the Grand Master as his command ability will make your Knights run AND charge when kept within 15" at the start of the charge phase. Also 1 Knight unit can be picked as Inner Circle getting another +1 Bravery.

    Together with the Battalion bonus and an almost impossible way to fail a charge you will be dishing out A LOT of attacks, now if you keep in mind that you can activate the Duty and Honour ability the Knights have they will be re-rolling to-hit as well!

    So this army setup (taking the 125 wounds build up used by the others here)

    Grand Master (5)
    Battle Wizard (5)
    Warrior Priest (5)

    7 Empire Knights (full command, Cavalry Hammers) (14)
    7 Empire Knights (full command, Cavalry Hammers) (14)
    7 Empire Knights (full command, Cavalry Hammers) (14)
    4 Demigryph Knights (full command, Lance and Sword) (16)

    23 State Troops (full command, Sword and shield) (23)
    10 Empire Crossbowmen (full command) (10)
    1 Cannon (4) with crew (3)
    1 Mortar or Hellblaster or another cannon (4) with crew (3)
    =125

    Now this last bit of the army is your "save house" and cannot be ignored by your enemy. Together with the buffing abilities of your wizard and Priest and the ranged power it is on it's own a nice bunker. And does a unit make it close to them then you still have the Swordsmen to keep them occupied long enough to get one of your Knight units back there. I prefer using the Mortar as second choice warmachine for the no line of Sight, depending on how much scenery you use this could come in handy.

    The Knights with their Grand Master will surge out to target enemy units where ever while the bunker stays stationary.

    I took 3 units of "normal" Knights instead of the Demigryphs just because of their ability of Duty and Honour. It might be a one time use only but with 3 units you can make use of this on the heavier troops your are facing. Also 7 gives you a bit more "meat" to your units. Also all your Knight units need the Hornblower to give 2" more to your charge ranges. So with the Command Ability you are now looking at: 10" +(1" - 6") + (4"-14") minimum of 15" till maximum of 30" threat bubble.

    I also took the Cavalry Hammers on the Knights over the Lances, just because of the amount of attacks you can put out and with the added re-rolls to-hit you get once a battle this can really add up on how many hits you can land. Also the To wound roll is a bit better if you get stuck in combat for more then 1 round. For the Demigryphs I took the benefit of the added damage / To Wound on the Charge, you best use them on stuff to annihilate first round of combat anyway.

    If you can get a prayer of on one of your Knight units even better, Hammer of Sigmar will make the unit also re roll failed wound rolls! But his range of 10" will probably to short most of the time.

    Comments / Suggestions?
     
    StealthKnightSteg, Feb 4, 2016
    #80
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