Advice for Tomb Kings tactics & army list

[Lizards of Renown]

Placing Ramhotep in a unit of Necropolis Knights has quite a few downsides:

• Ramhotep does not benefit from Look Out Sir roll
• you reduce the unit's speed from 7 to 4
• you forfeit the unit's Swiftstride special rule
• since he must be placed on the side of the unit, you make an already large and unwieldy unit even more unwieldy

Also keep in mind that a Daemon Prince does not have to issue challenges!

I knew the first bits, but somehow I thought that the Daemon Prince had Eye of the God's! Jeez! Thanks!

Yeah, considering the footprint of the unit, I think I'll stick a BSB with Banner of the Undying Legion there on a horse. I know he doesn't get Look Out Sir, but I think I'll need it on this unit which will be Hellcannon'ed to mahrlect and I need to be able to build it back up.

The horse means that I still can move at M7 and keep Swiftstride.

Great points! Keep 'em coming!

What did you think about the rest of my army list?

 

[Lizards of Renown]

Blasphemy!

Stalkers are misunderstood and misused. When used well, they are a tremendously useful unit against many builds/armies. They provide Tomb Kings with a tool set that is not easily replicated anywhere else in the army.

If @Lizards of Renown 's friend brings the list he outlined earlier, the Stalkers have several viable targets!

Hmmmmmm... Interesting... I can see Hellcannon as viable target, maybe Ogres if he fields them, but the rest of the WoC army seems to have a high initiative... which other targets do you see?

And aside from the obvious tactic of use Buried Beneath the Sands to pop up behind his army, do you have any other nuggets of tactical genius to pass down?

I chose to do Light Council as counter to the Hellcannons for two reasons:

1) My friend is very smart. He will have chaff units surrounding the Hellcannon to protect it from me popping up behind him. If I pop up in front I'll have one turn of shooting and then he'll probably charge with a unit or the Hellcannon itself.

2) After the Hellcannon(s) are destroyed, I didn't see the Stalkers being effective against anything else I believe he will bring, so then they will be dead points, which I can't afford in this battle...

Thoughts? @Killer Angel @Lord-Marcus @Khemrian Slann

 

[Killer Angel]

2) After the Hellcannon(s) are destroyed, I didn't see the Stalkers being effective against anything else I believe he will bring, so then they will be dead points, which I can't afford in this battle...

it will be merely a classic battle of "who destroys the most" or there will be also some objective that should be conquered?

 

[Lizards of Renown]

it will be merely a classic battle of "who destroys the most" or there will be also some objective that should be conquered?

We’re going to do the VERY grown-up thing and roll for scenario on the day. Variety is the spice of life!

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Hmmmmmm... Interesting... I can see Hellcannon as viable target, maybe Ogres if he fields them, but the rest of the WoC army seems to have a high initiative... which other targets do you see?

I wasn't even talking about the WoC roster as a whole, but rather more specifically the speculative army composition you provided earlier.

Most people focus in on initiative as the sole determinant of target selection. The key feature of Stalker's gaze is the ability to completely negate armour. As such the primary factor when selecting viable targets for Stalkers are units comprised of heavily armoured high points-per-wound models. The factors I'm looking for are as follows:

• high armour saves (thus greater points-per-wound)
• high toughness (thus greater points-per-wound)
• low initiative (thus easier to wound)
• ethereal (where applicable)

The more of those factors that the target unit has, the better! You've accurately identified the Hellcannon as the primary/best target. The Hellcannon has high toughness, low initiative, decent armour and a high points-per-wound value. But as I eluded to, it is not the only good target available to you.

So, back to the discussion at hand, the other viable targets in his list are:

• Chaos Knights
• Daemon Prince

The Chaos Knights cost 40+2+3 points (base cost, MoN, Ensorcelled weapons). That's a fat 45 points per wound! A unit three Stalkers will average 15 hits and then need 6's to wound, leaving you with 2.5 wounds that ignore the Knights' very impressive 1+ armour save. That's an average net gain of 112.5 points worth of models from a single round of shooting. Your unit of three Stalkers only cost 165 pts, and one round of shooting has already offset over two thirds of their points cost. Now, I'm assuming that you cleverly had your Stalkers pop up either in his flank or better yet to the rear of his unit (in both cases, out of their charge arc). What does your opponent do now? His very elite army will have very few units to come take out your Stalkers , so he can either press on forward or he can turn to try to face you (even better, as you have now essentially taken this unit out of play for a couple more turns). In any event, you should at least be able to get off another round of shooting at the very least, and likely more. At worst, you may need to switch targets if he marches out of range.


The DP costs even more points-per-wound, although this is slightly offset by it's 5+ ward save and likely an ability to heal in combat (Soul Feeder). Four Stalkers will average 20 hits, which will then need 6's to wound and get by his 5+ ward. That's 20 * 1/6 * 2/3 = 2.22 wounds. That may not sound like a lot, but that is 2.22 extremely premium wounds on a unit that you will have a very difficult time removing from the field if you can't successfully target it with Banishment. This means that 8 Stalkers shooting at it (or 4 Stalkers shooting at it twice) will on average kill the DP. He can fly away from your unit after the first salvo, but their isn't much he can do to protect himself on the turn your Stalkers arrive.


The Chaos Warriors themselves are not ideal/primary targets; any of the three I mentioned above are significantly better. The only other unit you mentioned he will be fielding is chaff. It is ill-advised to target chaff units with the gaze, but if the situation calls for it, you could charge them with your Stalkers. The Stalkers are not exceptional combatants, but they do put out two S5 attacks each and are T4 themselves. In the case of Hounds, they can even utilize their S4 stomps. They should get the job done when the positional requirements of the battlefield call for it.

I hope that is helpful and provides a different tactical viewpoint through which to consider Stalkers. (have I mentioned what my Stalkers consistently do to my wife's Treemen? )

 

[Lizards of Renown]

I wasn't even talking about the WoC roster as a whole, but rather more specifically the speculative army composition you provided earlier.

Most people focus in on initiative as the sole determinant of target selection. The key feature of Stalker's gaze is the ability to completely negate armour. As such the primary factor when selecting viable targets for Stalkers are units comprised of heavily armoured high points-per-wound models. The factors I'm looking for are as follows:

• high armour saves (thus greater points-per-wound)
• high toughness (thus greater points-per-wound)
• low initiative (thus easier to wound)
• ethereal (where applicable)

The more of those factors that the target unit has, the better! You've accurately identified the Hellcannon as the primary/best target. The Hellcannon has high toughness, low initiative, decent armour and a high points-per-wound value. But as I eluded to, it is not the only good target available to you.

So, back to the discussion at hand, the other viable targets in his list are:

• Chaos Knights
• Daemon Prince

The Chaos Knights cost 40+2+3 points (base cost, MoN, Ensorcelled weapons). That's a fat 45 points per wound! A unit three Stalkers will average 15 hits and then need 6's to wound, leaving you with 2.5 wounds that ignore the Knights' very impressive 1+ armour save. That's an average net gain of 112.5 points worth of models from a single round of shooting. Your unit of three Stalkers only cost 165 pts, and one round of shooting has already offset over two thirds of their points cost. Now, I'm assuming that you cleverly had your Stalkers pop up either in his flank or better yet to the rear of his unit (in both cases, out of their charge arc). What does your opponent do now? His very elite army will have very few units to come take out your Stalkers , so he can either press on forward or he can turn to try to face you (even better, as you have now essentially taken this unit out of play for a couple more turns). In any event, you should at least be able to get off another round of shooting at the very least, and likely more. At worst, you may need to switch targets if he marches out of range.


The DP costs even more points-per-wound, although this is slightly offset by it's 5+ ward save and likely an ability to heal in combat (Soul Feeder). Four Stalkers will average 20 hits, which will then need 6's to wound and get by his 5+ ward. That's 20 * 1/6 * 2/3 = 2.22 wounds. That may not sound like a lot, but that is 2.22 extremely premium wounds on a unit that you will have a very difficult time removing from the field if you can't successfully target it with Banishment. This means that 8 Stalkers shooting at it (or 4 Stalkers shooting at it twice) will on average kill the DP. He can fly away from your unit after the first salvo, but their isn't much he can do to protect himself on the turn your Stalkers arrive.


The Chaos Warriors themselves are not ideal/primary targets; any of the three I mentioned above are significantly better. The only other unit you mentioned he will be fielding is chaff. It is ill-advised to target chaff units with the gaze, but if the situation calls for it, you could charge them with your Stalkers. The Stalkers are not exceptional combatants, but they do put out two S5 attacks each and are T4 themselves. In the case of Hounds, they can even utilize their S4 stomps. They should get the job done when the positional requirements of the battlefield call for it.

I hope that is helpful and provides a different tactical viewpoint through which to consider Stalkers. (have I mentioned what my Stalkers consistently do to my wife's Treemen? )

Awesome. Very helpful.

 

[Lizards of Renown]

Okay, can anyone give me feedback on this list idea?

TK on chariot, Armour of Fortune, Dragonhelm, GW
TK, Armour of Silvered Steel, Talisman of Protection, GW
Liche High Priest (Lv 4), Armour of Destiny

4 Priests (One Level 2 and with Power Stone, one with Dispel Scroll) as Light Council

2 x 10 Skeleton Warriors (just as template protection for Light Council)
11 Chariots (for TK above) and Banner of Undying Legion

40 TG with Halberds and Razor Banner
3 Sepulchral Stalkers

Hierotitan
Casket of Souls

-

General idea being hang back, Stalkers take care of Hellcannon(s), Light Council first goes after Daemon Prince, then other units. Try to do as much damage as possible with magic before everything goes down. Use TG to charge Chaos Knights, use Chariot Legion to attack one block of Chaos Warriors (who will be on 4's to hit due to TK WS bonus) overrun in first round of combat and then come round again for a second charge into the backs of the advancing units.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

TK on chariot, Armour of Fortune, Dragonhelm, GW

You cannot give your Tomb King character both the Armour of Fortune and the Dragonhelm as they are both classed as Magic Armour.

"Each model can only carry one of each type of magic item" [BRB, page 500]

Liche High Priest (Lv 4), Armour of Destiny

"Wizards cannot choose magic armour unless they have an option for 'normal' armour" [BRB, page 500]

That is why our wizards (and most wizards in the game) cannot be given magic armour, but Chaos Sorcerers can.

11 Chariots (for TK above) and Banner of Undying Legion

Skeleton Chariot standard bearers can only be given a magic standard worth up to 25 points. The Standard of the Undying Legion costs 50 points, so this is an illegal build.

Okay, can anyone give me feedback on this list idea?

You and I have very different approaches when it comes to the construction of army lists, which is why I have hesitated up until now to comment on your lists. I don't want to dissuade you from creating a list that suits your style of play, but in my opinion (and it is only my opinion!!) I would feel extremely confident fielding your friend's WoC army list and against the list you have.

If I was playing your friend's list, this is how I would breakdown your army:

Characters
Too many points invested in characters (2 TKs and 5 wizards), well over a third of your army is characters. Even your friend's army has too many characters in it for my liking, but at least WoC are capable of fielding some of the very best characters in the game. Among many TK players, the actual Tomb King is considered not be be worth his points cost. That is why Tomb Princes are far more prevalent. I can see an argument being made for the inclusion of a TK (especially against the WS5 of the WoC), but two is excessive, especially alongside of 5 additional characters. The rest of your army is insufficient in size in the scope of a 3000 pts game.

Magic
5 wizards in an army is pretty extreme (especially alongside of point number 1 above). I understand the strategy of super charging the Banishment spell, but it is a case of all your eggs in one basket. As your opponent, the second you deploy those wizards on the field, it is obvious what the strategy is. The entire setup is based around the spell Banishment. That spell is the number one priority to dispel. I would make sure to keep a dispel scroll around just for it. So it comes down to whether or not you can cast it with irresistible force. The DP is the rightful number one target of the spell. Possible strategies against it:

• keep the DP out of range or out of sight early on (not sure how much and what type of terrain you play on, or how big your battlefield is)
• engage the Banishment wielding Priest's unit in combat (can't cast magic missiles while engaged in CC)
• kill the Banishment wielding Priest
• get the DP into CC (as magic missiles can't be cast into CC)

Sustained Combat
You have only one single threat in terms of sustained combat, your 40 strong Tomb Guard. Admittedly, you have this unit set up well, and the Razor Standard is exactly what I would give them. However, it is only one single (slow moving) threat. Your friend on the other hand has 4 extremely potent CC units (two units of Warriors of Chaos, DP, Chaos Knights). If his lord is equipped properly, it can stand in for a 5th CC unit on its own. And that is not even considering the Hellcannons, who can fend for themselves.

Battlefield Control
Your friend has chaff and you don't. He already boasts the significantly faster army, and on top of that he fully controls the chaff game. If you and him are equally skilled generals, he should end up with all the engagements on his terms (this is especially a problem as discussed in the paragraph below). In addition, you don't even have many chaff removal options at your disposal.

Chariots
On the charge your chariot unit is extremely dangerous, but as with all chariots it all comes down to getting the charge. In your case, it is triply important as your unit is so expensive. If you don't get the charge, any of his combat units will blow through your chariots. As mentioned before, he has chaff and you don't. Based on your relative armies, if your opponent is good, you would have to be very lucky to get the charge off. He can easily mess up your plans with 30 point units of hounds and setup a situation where he charges you. His knights are more maneuverable than your chariots and can march. His DP should be able to fly, meaning it is more maneuverable, can fly over things, has significantly greater movement and a greater charge range.

Protecting soft targets!!
You have many targets that you must protect from your opponent, and not many units with which to do it with. You only have two combat units and you must somehow protect:

• your 5 bunkered wizards
• hierotitan
• casket of souls
• chariots (from being charged)

If your opponent charges your chariots with any of his combat units, he wins the game. If he gets to your 5 wizards, he wins the game.

Phase domination
As it stands the breakdown of phases are as follows

• movement (your friend wins here)
• magic (you win here by a large margin)
• shooting (your friend wins here)
• close combat (your friend MASSIVELY wins here)

Bottom line, if they get to your wizards you can't really win.


General Strategy/Counters
Wizard Bunker ➤ charge with anything... combat unit to kill, chaff unit to delay. Banishment priest is the top priority.

Chariots ➤ Chaff disruption. Charge it with any combat unit (knights, WoC, DP)

Tomb Guard ➤ Soften up with Hellcannon fire. Engage with combat unit and once engaged, flank with second combat unit.



Anyways, that is just how I see it. Opinions, tactics and strategies will vary. I could very well be wrong, but I would be doing you a disservice if I was anything but honest. Hopefully some others will chime in to confirm, deny or offer something different from my strategy. As always, its your list and it should reflect your playstyle/tactics/interests. Only one way to find out for sure.

 

[Lizards of Renown]

You cannot give your Tomb King character both the Armour of Fortune and the Dragonhelm as they are both classed as Magic Armour.

"Each model can only carry one of each type of magic item" [BRB, page 500]

Dang. Somehow I thought Magical Shields AND helmets were permitted builds... Fair enough.

"Wizards cannot choose magic armour unless they have an option for 'normal' armour" [BRB, page 500]

That is why our wizards (and most wizards in the game) cannot be given magic armour, but Chaos Sorcerers can.

Double dang.

Skeleton Chariot standard bearers can only be given a magic standard worth up to 25 points. The Standard of the Undying Legion costs 50 points, so this is an illegal build.

Triple dang...?

You and I have very different approaches when it comes to the construction of army lists, which is why I have hesitated up until now to comment on your lists. I don't want to dissuade you from creating a list that suits your style of play, but in my opinion (and it is only my opinion!!) I would feel extremely confident fielding your friend's WoC army list and against the list you have.

Please feel free to comment. On Lizardmen I feel that I have a little bit of a right to an opinion now, but I am a COMPLETE neophyte when it comes to playing Tomb Kings. For the longest time I have been collecting and not playing, just because I love the whole Egyptian vibe. Now I'd like to use them. A lot of the "tactics" that I mention are just ideas that I got when I first read the rulebook and have always wanted to try out.

If I was playing your friend's list, this is how I would breakdown your army:

Characters
Too many points invested in characters (2 TKs and 5 wizards), well over a third of your army is characters. Even your friend's army has too many characters in it for my liking, but at least WoC are capable of fielding some of the very best characters in the game. Among many TK players, the actual Tomb King is considered not be be worth his points cost. That is why Tomb Princes are far more prevalent. I can see an argument being made for the inclusion of a TK (especially against the WS5 of the WoC), but two is excessive, especially alongside of 5 additional characters. The rest of your army is insufficient in size in the scope of a 3000 pts game.

You're right that I chose the TK over the TP because of the WoC WS5. He will inevitably chose the Mark of Nurgle and make me 5's to hit which is pretty deadly. In my opinion, minuses or pluses to hit are the biggest advantages in close combat due to the 8th edition WS table.

Magic

5 wizards in an army is pretty extreme (especially alongside of point number 1 above). I understand the strategy of super charging the Banishment spell, but it is a case of all your eggs in one basket. As your opponent, the second you deploy those wizards on the field, it is obvious what the strategy is. The entire setup is based around the spell Banishment. That spell is the number one priority to dispel. I would make sure to keep a dispel scroll around just for it. So it comes down to whether or not you can cast it with irresistible force. The DP is the rightful number one target of the spell. Possible strategies against it:

• keep the DP out of range or out of sight early on (not sure how much and what type of terrain you play on, or how big your battlefield is)
• engage the Banishment wielding Priest's unit in combat (can't cast magic missiles while engaged in CC)
• kill the Banishment wielding Priest
• get the DP into CC (as magic missiles can't be cast into CC)

Fair enough.

Sustained Combat
You have only one single threat in terms of sustained combat, your 40 strong Tomb Guard. Admittedly, you have this unit set up well, and the Razor Standard is exactly what I would give them. However, it is only one single (slow moving) threat. Your friend on the other hand has 4 extremely potent CC units (two units of Warriors of Chaos, DP, Chaos Knights). If his lord is equipped properly, it can stand in for a 5th CC unit on its own. And that is not even considering the Hellcannons, who can fend for themselves.

Battlefield Control
Your friend has chaff and you don't. He already boasts the significantly faster army, and on top of that he fully controls the chaff game. If you and him are equally skilled generals, he should end up with all the engagements on his terms (this is especially a problem as discussed in the paragraph below). In addition, you don't even have many chaff removal options at your disposal.

Chariots
On the charge your chariot unit is extremely dangerous, but as with all chariots it all comes down to getting the charge. In your case, it is triply important as your unit is so expensive. If you don't get the charge, any of his combat units will blow through your chariots. As mentioned before, he has chaff and you don't. Based on your relative armies, if your opponent is good, you would have to be very lucky to get the charge off. He can easily mess up your plans with 30 point units of hounds and setup a situation where he charges you. His knights are more maneuverable than your chariots and can march. His DP should be able to fly, meaning it is more maneuverable, can fly over things, has significantly greater movement and a greater charge range.

Protecting soft targets!!
You have many targets that you must protect from your opponent, and not many units with which to do it with. You only have two combat units and you must somehow protect:

• your 5 bunkered wizards
• hierotitan
• casket of souls
• chariots (from being charged)

If your opponent charges your chariots with any of his combat units, he wins the game. If he gets to your 5 wizards, he wins the game.

Phase domination
As it stands the breakdown of phases are as follows

• movement (your friend wins here)
• magic (you win here by a large margin)
• shooting (your friend wins here)
• close combat (your friend MASSIVELY wins here)

Bottom line, if they get to your wizards you can't really win.


General Strategy/Counters
Wizard Bunker ➤ charge with anything... combat unit to kill, chaff unit to delay. Banishment priest is the top priority.

Chariots ➤ Chaff disruption. Charge it with any combat unit (knights, WoC, DP)

Tomb Guard ➤ Soften up with Hellcannon fire. Engage with combat unit and once engaged, flank with second combat unit.



Anyways, that is just how I see it. Opinions, tactics and strategies will vary. I could very well be wrong, but I would be doing you a disservice if I was anything but honest. Hopefully some others will chime in to confirm, deny or offer something different from my strategy. As always, its your list and it should reflect your playstyle/tactics/interests. Only one way to find out for sure.

I appreciate your data and, ultimately, more experienced viewpoint on the list.

I did try going through the Khemri forum for tactics and also the EEFL but there doesn't seem to be any really good tactica. Any threads you would recommend?

The thing is, and the reason I keep posting army lists up on the LO forums, is I appreciate an external viewpoint to my lists. Even if I decide I'd like to try out the list anyways, despite warnings, it's really good to get a new take on things. It makes me think more about what my tactics are and what I want to do.

I don't believe that my friend has any experience in Light Councils or Tomb Kings in general. So I'll have a small advantage there. That said, he's told me to my face that he understands the threat I present and will be thoroughly thinking through his list.

I am peculiar in that I LOVE making lists, so having someone point out the flaws sends me happily back to the drawing board to work out what else I could do. I also like trying out new things, so I might just play the list.

Keep the reviews coming! Plus anyone else watching the thread! @Lord-Marcus @Khemrian Slann and anyone else who has played TK's before.

Thanks guys.

 

[Lizards of Renown]

@NIGHTBRINGER I do have one question though. Based on reviewing the Army Rulebook, in general:

Movement: NO chance of winning
Magic: High chance of winning
Shooting: Highly unlikely if he brings Hellcannons, but possibly can at least match with Stalkers
Close Combat: Highly unlikely unless I do very well in Magic and smartly in shooting

Do you concur?

It's the areas I have a chance at winning at that I was trying to reinforce, rather than trying to beat him at his own game...

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Movement: NO chance of winning

Pretty much. WoC have insanely fast elements and can spam flying characters and Chimeras with ease. The lack of Tomb King marching really hurts us here.

Magic: High chance of winning

Yup. Easy win for us. TK can unleash one of the most potent magic phases in the game.

Shooting: Highly unlikely if he brings Hellcannons, but possibly can at least match with Stalkers

I disagree. Tomb Kings can easily out-shoot WoC.

WoC only have Hellcannons (and some near-useless short ranged shooting via Marauder Horsemen). Tomb Kings have Skeleton Archers, Skeleton Horse Archers, Skeleton Chariots, Ushabti Great bows, Bow of the Desert, High Queen Khalida, SSC, and my beloved Stalkers. While I don't think that all of these choices are particularly effective (i.e. Great bows, Bow of the Desert) or effective in this specific WoC match-up (Khalida), we are spoiled for choice. Plus we have a spell to further augment our shooting. I've engaged in shooting battles with my wife's Wood Elves, and won the day. We won't be beating Dwarfs or Chaos Dwarfs any time soon, but we can field some very significant ranged firepower (either to do serious damage or for chaff removal).

Model for model, Hellcannons are far superior to SSCs, but for the price of 3 Hellcannons you can field 7 SSC. Hellcannons obviously double as a potent unbreakable monster, but in terms of strictly shooting, they are not an auto win button. (not that I'm suggesting that you need to field SSCs, it was just an example to illustrate the point).

Close Combat: Highly unlikely unless I do very well in Magic and smartly in shooting

That is the bread and butter of the WoC army. They are among the very best in the entire game. Head-to-head we stand no chance at all!




The analysis above was completely in a vacuum, in reality the phases do interact with one another and there are other mitigating factors. Just because we fall short in a phase on paper doesn't mean that we can't at least contest that phase of the game (and sometimes even win it). For instance:

• a good chaff game can win the movement phase
• hunting down a wizard can cripple a magic phase
• shooting can tip the balance of a chaff war, and lead to positional advantages
• magic can augment close combat
• shooting can dictate movement (i.e. Dwarfs forcing opponents to come to them)
• movement and positional strategy can set up favourable CC match-ups even against an army that is superior in CC
• chaff can delay and remove potent units from the game for multiple game turns (i.e. frenzied Skullcrushers)
• etc.
• ... and of course the dice gods... but we can't do much about that!

So bringing this back to your list, consider the following...
Movement ➤ WoC are better at movement, but what else can we glean from your list versus your friend's list

• he wins the chaff battle uncontested (you have no chaff and little chaff removal tools)
• he will out deploy you (meaning you have to start deploying valuable assets on the field before he does)
• since you are also outclassed in terms of shooting, you can't pressure or force his movement
• your very expensive chariot unit is highly dependent on movement/position (getting the charge)

So it isn't a matter of simply WoC being a faster army. The discrepancy is compounded by the factors above.

Magic ➤ Your magic phase is clearly better, but...

• what good is a potent magic phase if you can't protect your magical assets? (not enough units, movement issue described above)
• how much of a points investment is too much?
• inefficiency: between your 5 wizards and the Casket's Light of Death bound spell and the Hierotitan's 2 bound spells, how many power dice will you have left to cast the Banner of the Undying Legion bound spell? Even the best magic phase can't support all that. Having choice at your disposal is great, but it comes at a huge points cost. Might that 50 points spent on the banner be better allocated elsewhere?

Close Combat ➤ WoC are better, but...

• you are facing an elite army, and your friend might actually have the numerical advantage
• with so few combat units, it will be exceedingly difficult to contest the phase at all
• too many characters have left your combat potential severely depleted
• CC disparity is further compounded by the movement problem above (especially for the chariots)
• not enough units to protect your valuable soft targets (casket, 5 wizards, titan, etc.)

That said, TK vs WoC match-up is a massively uphill challenge (think climbing K2 with a pair of broken legs while afflicted by a severe flu). When considering your army list, I took some time to look over the WoC army book and some of my old WoC lists and builds. I just don't know how I would write a TK army to face the strength of even some of my older and less polished WoC lists, let alone a more recent one (and those were generalist lists, not at all designed to specifically face TK).

 

[Killer Angel]

Skeleton Chariot standard bearers can only be given a magic standard worth up to 25 points. The Standard of the Undying Legion costs 50 points, so this is an illegal build.

IIRC the only exception to this is the 90 pts banner that lets a 175 pts chariot unit be entombed in the sand.

 

[Lizards of Renown]

IIRC the only exception to this is the 90 pts banner that lets a 175 pts chariot unit be entombed in the sand.

Is that per a FAQ or Errata? Clearly says on Chariot rules that only one unit can have up 25 point banner...

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

IIRC the only exception to this is the 90 pts banner that lets a 175 pts chariot unit be entombed in the sand.

As far as I can tell, the Chariot unit cannot actually take the Banner of the Hidden Dead themselves. Since the banner costs 90 points, only a BSB can field it. You can then choose to nominate a chariot unit (of no more that 175 points) to be EBtS. When this unit arrives its EBtS marker must be placed within 12" of the BSB carrying the Banner of the Hidden Dead. So while a chariot unit can be chosen as the target of the banner's effects, it is not the chariot unit that is actually taking the banner.

So to the best of my knowledge, a Chariot unit cannot take a banner exceeding the cost of 25pts. Unless I have missed something somewhere.

 

[Killer Angel]

As far as I can tell, the Chariot unit cannot actually take the Banner of the Hidden Dead themselves. Since the banner costs 90 points, only a BSB can field it. You can then choose to nominate a chariot unit (of no more that 175 points) to be EBtS. When this unit arrives its EBtS marker must be placed within 12" of the BSB carrying the Banner of the Hidden Dead. So while a chariot unit can be chosen as the target of the banner's effects, it is not the chariot unit that is actually taking the banner.

So to the best of my knowledge, a Chariot unit cannot take a banner exceeding the cost of 25pts. Unless I have missed something somewhere.

Could be.
I remember the entombed chariots, but don't recall the mechanic behind it

 

[Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl]

• inefficiency: between your 5 wizards and the Casket's Light of Death bound spell and the Hierotitan's 2 bound spells, how many power dice will you have left to cast the Banner of the Undying Legion bound spell? Even the best magic phase can't support all that. Having choice at your disposal is great, but it comes at a huge points cost. Might that 50 points spent on the banner be better allocated elsewhere?

Banner of the Undying Legion isn’t a Bound Spell as far as I can recall, it just gives you D6+2 models whenever you have a Nehekhara buff spell cast on your unit rather than the usual D3+1, so as long as you can cast at least 1 Nehekhara Spell and let it get through (which you should be able to given you’re going down the magic dominance route), you’ll be able to benefit from it. On a 40-strong Tomb Guard unit it’s a nice thing to have.

@Lizards of Renown I’m still analysing your list and possible alternatives, it’ll take a while but I’ll make another post when I’ve finished

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Banner of the Undying Legion isn’t a Bound Spell as far as I can recall, it just gives you D6+2 models whenever you have a Nehekhara buff spell cast on your unit rather than the usual D3+1, so as long as you can cast at least 1 Nehekhara Spell and let it get through (which you should be able to given you’re going down the magic dominance route), you’ll be able to benefit from it. On a 40-strong Tomb Guard unit it’s a nice thing to have.

If it worked in the way you described, I would be much more open to its inclusion in the army list. As it stands, it just sucks up more power dice (which even in a TK magic phase is limited). Additionally, bound spells don't benefit from adding a wizard's level to their casting; while the opponent can still attempt to dispel it using their level 4 wizard. This amounts to just over a one die advantage to your opponent each and every time you cast a bound spell.

 

[Lizards of Renown]

I disagree. Tomb Kings can easily out-shoot WoC.

WoC only have Hellcannons (and some near-useless short ranged shooting via Marauder Horsemen). Tomb Kings have Skeleton Archers, Skeleton Horse Archers, Skeleton Chariots, Ushabti Great bows, Bow of the Desert, High Queen Khalida, SSC, and my beloved Stalkers. While I don't think that all of these choices are particularly effective (i.e. Great bows, Bow of the Desert) or effective in this specific WoC match-up (Khalida), we are spoiled for choice. Plus we have a spell to further augment our shooting. I've engaged in shooting battles with my wife's Wood Elves, and won the day. We won't be beating Dwarfs or Chaos Dwarfs any time soon, but we can field some very significant ranged firepower (either to do serious damage or for chaff removal).

Model for model, Hellcannons are far superior to SSCs, but for the price of 3 Hellcannons you can field 7 SSC. Hellcannons obviously double as a potent unbreakable monster, but in terms of strictly shooting, they are not an auto win button. (not that I'm suggesting that you need to field SSCs, it was just an example to illustrate the point).

Interesting points... I'm going to review my army list in light of this.

That said, TK vs WoC match-up is a massively uphill challenge (think climbing K2 with a pair of broken legs while afflicted by a severe flu). When considering your army list, I took some time to look over the WoC army book and some of my old WoC lists and builds. I just don't know how I would write a TK army to face the strength of even some of my older and less polished WoC lists, let alone a more recent one (and those were generalist lists, not at all designed to specifically face TK).

Yeah, I know... I really hope that TK's are empowered in the Old World... (sigh)

So first off, my friend is good but he's not an expert. I think I have about a 15-20% chance of pulling off a win as long as I out-think him. I'm not trying to beat one of your lists (thank god!), I need to think what he will bring to the table, have a strategy myself to play to my strengths and hope for a bit of luck.

Thankfully, I'm not obsessed with the idea of winning. I like to go in with a healthy attitude of wanting to win, put some good time and effort into making it possible and then just enjoying playing the game. It's one of the reasons I fell out of the hobby as a kid, I was WAAAAAAAAAY too into winning and losing became a personal upset for me. Older and wiser now, I play with people that I know are there to enjoy the game as well (as otherwise, what is the mahrlect point!?!).

That said, I definitely noted all your points above. Appreciate you taking the time to lay it out. As I said above, I'm really looking for these alternate viewpoints so that I can consider my own, all the others and then come up with something that I'm happy to play.

Any further comments welcome!

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Yeah, I know... I really hope that TK's are empowered in the Old World... (sigh)

Let's begin with hoping that they are even IN The Old World at all!

I'm not trying to beat one of your lists (thank god!)

Oh, I am certain that there are FAR superior lists to any of mine out there. My point is simply that my best TK list will be hard pressed to match up against even my average/mediocre WoC lists.

I think I have about a 15-20% chance of pulling off a win

If you are fairly certain in what he is likely to field, you can begin by trying to determine what in your army counters each and every unit in his (and adjusting your army to fill in any potential gaps). Then in the actual game you'll have to try to set up and enact these countermeasures on the battlefield.

Normally I am not a huge fan of list tailoring (most of my lists are all-comers lists), but in the case of TK vs. WoC, I think we can make an exception.

Appreciate you taking the time to lay it out.

It's always nice to talk a little WFB... especially Tomb Kings (or Chaos Dwarfs... or Warriors of Chaos for that matter)! Since you've arrived at Lustria you have set up quite a few interesting WFB discussions! This match up is particularly intriguing for me because they are two of the armies I own.

Thankfully, I'm not obsessed with the idea of winning.

And with that, you're ready to be a Tomb Kings general! On the plus side, winning with TK will be that much more satisfying. Nothing better than an underdog success story.

 

[Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl]

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If it worked in the way you described, I would be much more open to its inclusion in the army list. As it stands, it just sucks up more power dice (which even in a TK magic phase is limited). Additionally, bound spells don't benefit from adding a wizard's level to their casting; while the opponent can still attempt to dispel it using their level 4 wizard. This amounts to just over a one die advantage to your opponent each and every time you cast a bound spell.

Well, for some reason I never saw that. Thanks for pointing that out mate.

And now I can see that it’s one of the most pointless wastes of fifty points ever. Even the Banner of the Hidden Dead has arguably more uses even if it does cost more - having a deep-striking unit would at least give your opponent something to worry about.

Could we please somehow contact Q to send one of us back in time to replace the Crudmeister in writing the Tomb Kings 8th Ed book so we can write one that’s so much less painfully underpowered?